+ 34 Why I don't use Tren anymore, and never will again
The dogs in the street know that Tren is a psycho.
Sure, there are outliers who can eat it all day long without suffering the way you or I do, but they are few and far between. When I was young, I could use it at high doses without getting crazy, and I did, for years on and off. But it has taken it's toll on my mind, along with other things. Now I suffer all of the sterotypical sides, moreso with tren a due to its high peak, but also with tren e. From heyday high doses, I now cannot even handle 100mg Tren E pw without succumbing to high BP, flipped lipids, and cognitive annihilation. You name it; my bird is a cnut, the world is a wanker, and I will smash your jaw around the back of your filthy head etc. etc. Disgusting really.
Some of you will remember the study from about 3 years back, many wont, and lot's wont care. But, you should.
Some very smart chappies out of China's Shandong University studied rats to see what Tren was doing in the brain. Now before you cry foul of the poor little rats, remember that their endo system is more or less the same as ours. Mammals are good like that, generally speaking.
Anyway; they discovered that beta amyloid plaques were accumulating in a very significant way in the brain. They realised it was plaque 42 which the brain doctors firmly accuse of being a leading cause of Alzheimer's Disease.
Shiiiiiiit..... right?
Yeah but the die hard won't give a crap and sure we have all been there at some point. But, the study went further. It actually figure out that it is the standard mediation of effects via the androgen receptor that caused it. They also realised there is significant neuronal damage taking place..... wait for it......it KILLS brain cells too....
OH FUCK!
So after years of the strength gains, the slow muscle building gains, and the fat burning magic of tren
I realise something isn't right. MY brain does not work the way it did before. There are many factors for that, but when it is really off it feels the way it does on tren (the sterotypical bad effects). So... anecdotally speaking, damage has been done.
So, I cannot handle it, but it also kills brain cells and is gradually potentially causing Alzheimer's.
I'm out...... for good
There is hope though
Alzheiner's is an area where there is massive scientific interest and significant investment. Recent studies showing new proteins can clear the plaques and prevent more from forming. You might also want to take a look at this study, courtesy of Carlos Danger: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3169155. This is far more accessible than the protein which is very far from being realised as any sort of treatment.
So, it's up to you, as always.
What you do is your own business and some of us are adults here on eroids too! But for me, even though there is hope down the line for some of the damage tren causes, I dont want to end up in a position where I have already forgotten about it! I also don't want to keep killing brain cells, nor do I want to feel the cognitive destruction that tren causes anymore. It accumulates with time, and retrospectively I can swear to you that it is not worth it.
References
http://www.ergo-log.com/trenbolone-may-increase-alzheimer-s-risk.html - I have the full study, if anyone wants to read it, it is eye opening, I can email it to your anon email addey, just PM me.
https://www.sciencealert.com/new-protein-injection-reverses-alzheimer-s-...
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3169155
EDITS
Edited to add the following link from Carlos Danger: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3169155
Edited to add, from BJ: Mineral volcanic water for Alzheimer’s: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22976072/
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I can second that ...ive run deca solo at 900mg and had better sex life then test tren together!!
Scores of men have different data that conflicts with your findings, but I've heard at least a few lads mention that Deca didn't effect erections or libido. This would be an interesting thread (if it isn't already) in and of itself!
When you ran "deca solo," did you run it with a TRT base? Or did you just LITERALLY just use deca by itself with nothing else? Anything like HCG added? Any AI's? What was the dose? Did you change your diet at all? Sleep? I have so many questions about this! (Strange, cuz in my context, I don't think I'll ever use deca, but it's fun to learn from peeps' experiences.) Sorry to pester you on this. It just fascinates my logical brain! It also fits into what I've already learned: Compounds, dosages, lifting approaches, diet, all of it effects people in different ways. We're carbon copies of each other, but we're so unique, it's kind of mind blowing.
Show me 1 from the scores big ZM. Just 1! Hint: He doesnt exist!
All you will find is people running cycles with other compounds.
Deca is a potent androgen which does everything test does except 1 thing; create enough estrogen to function.
Deca solo = deca with no other compound whatsoever, so yes my man, literally solo.
Deca improves erectile function and libido, not the opposite.
See, the scores ttempting to blame estrogen and prolactin related problems like ED or anorgasmia, caused by running deca which activates androgen receptors faster than test leaving test to aromatise to estrogen in excessive amounts which leads to increased prolactin..... is silly. I always say test is the culprit, but it isnt, the cycle is the culprit!!!
I spent close to 2 years researching it and then testing. I wrote 2 forums on it, and need to finish the test results post, but no brother, deca in and of itself absolutely doesnt cause ED, quite the opposite in fact!
Doses from 600mg to 3g. Diet clean bulking diet. Sleep, hmmmm could always be better for me, but not bad.
PM me and I will tell you more!!
Deca is terrible for blood vessels/veins/arteries. Worse than a vasoconstrictor upper like amphs. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/17267145/
400+mg pharma deca kills my weiner. Literally no blood flow.
I do agree about the tren. Terrible drug prob never again for me :( Effective but too many sides/very unhealthy. Cardiotoxic imo.
Ok man, I got the full study, can email it to you if you want. There is nothing about short term vasocontriction whatsoever. It in no way supports anything to do with the myth of deca dick, or you own issue.
It does though, across 3 points, suggest heart disease can be caused by several but not all androgens tested with testosterone being the worst it seems, for cell death and for calcium release as it relates to CV disease development. Something we all sorta know at this stage about androgens.
See, this is the danger of abstract surfing and blurring points.
From what I can gather of the abstract, they exposed endothelial cells to varying concentrations of AAS until they saw decrease in growth/proliferation of said cells. This decrease in growth is seen as a predictor or marker for cell death. Or at least the potential for that drug to cause cell death. The threshold for nandrolone to do this was about 10x lower than testosterone (and all the other compounds they tested). Meaning it could cause cell death or damage at lower concentrations than testosterone, which would in turn mean it could cause more damage at the same dose/concentration as testosterone. All that being said I think this is getting off topic from your original post about tren being a terrible drug. Just my .02c about deca being unhealthy. On the subject of tren I believe that tren is a terrible drug that humans should stay away from. Perhaps I’m just envious bc I can’t take it anymore/ever again, but if I could go back and coach myself in my 20’s I wouldn’t have used it. Harsh drug. Effective but harsh.
Honestly I dont think it is off topic and credit to you and your .02 is appreciated...., mainly due to the fact, if we are all being honest.... that nothing we are doing is necessarily healthy, you know?
That is a question I have after (admittedly) scanning the study. I may be wrong and need to read it properly but I think the measurement was actually area of cells covered on the glass rather than dose of the drug, a separate experiment for each. I do need to read carefully, but I didn't see a dose used to saturate the cells.
Given the binding affinity (speed of activation of AR's) of deca, and the generally lower amount used versus testo in the average gymrat's cycles, it makes sense and wouldn't surprise me. Either way, one thing is certain; androgens in excess cause problems. (ventricular hypertrophy is my personal concern).
I could not have said it better. +'s
The envy is real and there, in my original post, is a sort of grieving about this, but the reality outweighs the ego........ finally, for me at least.
cardiotoxic...you referring to loss of breath or something?
if so tren after 2weeks it decreases oxygen lvl in blood from 99%to97-98% tested by my doc got the same result every time !!
Cardio toxic—referring to tren being toxic to the cardiovascular system in many ways.
Is that all? I thought it would be more than that. Good to know
well its bad enough ,bare in mind I was a smoker couple of years back and did the same test ...and I had better oxygen when I was smoking then with tren alone ...
Big Growth, You posted an abstract (abstract surfing to try prove a point is the worst type of broscience fella) that seems to say androgens including testosterone might have detrimental effects on endothelial cells in umbilical chords when saturated in vitro?
In the abstract, testosterone was almost TWICE as damaging as nandrolone.... unsure of the measurements, durations, or how to even attempt to draw a comparison to a penis.... no homo
I will try to get the full study.... but, isn't it fair to say that pretty much anything at supraphysiological levels causes problems? Hence all of the binding proteins and enzymes etc. that our bodies have, trying to fight back towards homeostasis? You can take this all the way if you want with regards to studies.... testosterone protects our brains... but too much causes cell death, nandrolone too I am sure. But to single out nandrolone makes zero sense.
Am very curious re: 400mg: what have you introduced it to? Presumably test? If so, why blame deca? But if not with test and instead run solo, how long you run it for and what about estrogen etc.? Why say literally no blood flow? If that were true you would have literally no penis, because it would have rot and fallen off! ( I am asking those q's as 99.9999% of the time people blame one thing or the other when they are part of a cycle with cascade effects which makes it difficult to isolate true causes, so just curious about the basis for your own issues with using deca - we are all different of course, and personally I have not experienced that and dont understand how it is possible in the short term, given how androgens like test deca and tren work on erectile function - I will try to get the full study to see what they say as no doubt at supra levels there is some element of damage happening)
Re: Tren... you are the second fella that has said in last few days to me that tren was cardio toxic. I didnt know that, that's really interesting. Did you notice anything specific from it yourself??
Just my opinion with tren. When I use to take it my breathing was more shallow, cardio function decreased, not to mention it’s an extremely potent androgen.
PS I wasn’t surfing for studies. Another board had that posted saying nandrolone is 11x more toxic to blood vessels than T. After 15 years of using/stacking various compounds—nandrolone kills my dick. Just me not saying it does for you or the general population. Deca dick for me is real.
Fair enough g
Well each goal based cycle has appropriate mitigation strategies. All of them. From the simple stacks to the complex. Will any of these strategies eliminate risks from the simple to complex stacks? Well, No not a single strategy ever does. All we can ever hope to accomplish is to use our deepest and sincere efforts in preparing ourselves with the most comprehensive strategy possible for each scenario. This forum brother Giardap posted is exactly what this place is all about. Some of us find concerns in our research and we spark a dialogue to help educate along with generate additional dialogue and hopefully figure out a new mitagation strategy for the collective membership of the site. Back in the day when myself and a couple others thought Aromasin would be a staple for PCT we got laughed out the building. Seriously so many folks thought it was stupid so a few of us put the PCT to bloods and it was a hit. My point in all this is there’s always risks. Always. Shit man every Test only cycle you run can and will lead to heart disease risks, stroke risks and HPTA assasination if we don’t utilize certain mitigation strategies. We should always look to find ways around these risks because shit fellas this is the lifestyle we all chose. We all decided that we love what we do so much we decided to join a website that is the single greatest steroid source review site in the world. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. They’re entitled to their reasons for doing or not doing. I saw a lot of Negative tren bias and to a certain degree rightedly so but I thought I’d remind folks that everything we do is a risk and pretty much all unsafe. Sorry for the multiple posts but this was so long of a reply that many of you wouldn’t bother reading it all if done one post. There’s my devils advocate take and I’m sure it’s opposite prism vatange point of the collective but someone needed to throw a monkey wrench in the room. Sorry for no spellcheck and run-on sentences. Happy cycles fellas Peace
Thank you for sharing this here. I missed the China study. I will not order Tren again. In fact today I feel like I have not experienced effective supplements in 3 years. I got some protein injection for ya....not sure it cures Alzheimers. The first day I took Sustanon injection(1998) I couldn't remember my voicemail password, something i used multiple times a day.
I love tren and didn’t use it for long time had a break from it and I really miss it but after reading this I will think twice before using it but I don’t think this will stop me
YOU dont use tren.....
YOU ARE TREN
Most likely, you give TREN brain damage lol
The "TRENFELLA" doesnt bow down for no-one¬!
Frankly if you did I would be disappointed in ya!!!
;-P
lol xD the trenfella will never disappoint you my friend
RivaLol if braindamage wont stop you I don't know what will tbh. To each their own, but remember you can't get a braintransplant like a kidney or something.
It is weird tho. Tren is the only anabolic I have that beckons me to use it. I wouldn't know but I wonder if that is kind of like heroin does for junkies? I have no intention of using it but just having vials of it around there is always a bit of temptation.
Ace VenturaThat’s interesting and true. I’ve never thought of it like that. Everything else is is like “eh, I guess I’ll use this next time”. Tren is like the bad angel on my shoulder, always tempting me
RivaTbh I was more afraid of deca (which I still won't touch and probably never will). But yeah, after the first run with tren and test having the best strenght and mass gains of my life, I decided to do a 2nd run waaay to early (that's it doing what heroine does for junkies). So after reading this post and getting off the tren and continuing with test only I had the worst bout of depression and ED I've ever had (I was still on 500mg of test and estrogen was in check). Almost lost my gf over this shit. Fyi I was only doing about 200mg a week.
I always love to see posts like these because I’ve always believed steroids have such a negative impact on the brain not just Tren but that doesn’t surprise me that it’s the worst. Good contribution brother
I posted here a while back about how Tren affected me physiologically and psychologically- basically put me back in ICU with all my Cardio Doc's previous 12 months work undone and me with a bad attitude. It is a dangerous substance for sure. I still have some A and E amps in my gear drawer. I want to throw them, but it's a little like having some Coke/Speed/Gunja in the draw...never know when you might feel the need...I'm building up the nerve just to bin that shit but like so many, I live in hope that someone like Giard will post some research saying it's all good (that's called denial)...given my present situation, I guess that I will bin it after all.
I juat threw away 3 bottles of tren a. Ran 50ed for 6 weeks days and the was to run it 8 weeks. Had nightsweats like ive never had before and was sweating like crazy at work and in the gym. It also killed my appetite and insomnia got real bad around week 4. This was my fourth run with tren and the sodes hit me real hard this time. I knew it was time to throw in the towel when I got jealous of my wife going out with a couple of her girlfriends thinking she was going to cheat on me. I love the effects tren gives but have now realized they arent worth the sides. The only time i will run it again will be the last 4 weeks of contest prep at a lower dosage.
Great read brother. Ive really enjoyed the stuff you have been posting lately!
Well Rob I have to say thats a really mature approach to the drug. You are weighing the pro's and the cons and trying to find a balance because of what you feel is a genuine competitive need to use the drug. So respect to that and the decision to cut it out elsewhere. +'s
RivaIs there a certain dose at which these side effects occur in regards to brain damage or is it the same at any dose (I wouldn't be suprised since tren is such a strong compound).
Any dose, but the severity is dose dependent. Even at the owest dose there was huge damage and overproduction of plaques. lowest dose less than .085mg per kg human equivalent, i think.
The rats were injected with a very low dose of .2mg, 1mg or a max of 5mg per kg. Miniscule. For humans it equates to max of .85mg per kg.
They were injected 6 times of 48 hours.
So in human terms, if you weigh 100kgs (220.5lbs), you are talking about 6x85mg injections in 2 days = 510mg of tren... or less than a tenth of that.
Whereas typical cycles of tren acetate are often 700mgs per week for up to 6 months often. With tren E we are talking greater than this.
After a mere 48 hours the damage to the brain was already done, on all dosing regimes.
RivaThe lowest dose is 0.0425mg/kg which at 100kg witj 6 injections a day equates to 25.5mg a day. So basicly that two days in a row already causes damage? Damn, thats crazy.
thanks for doing the maths, I suck at that!! yeah so it is actually 25.5 in total over the 2 days. then over time it builds up in the brain, so with every dose, more tren pools and does it's thing.
yeah it is nuts, tiny amounts are needed because of its high affinity for the andro receptors and its ability to effect the estro receptors too..
it pretty much immediately switches on plaque production on one hand and kills neurons on the other.
RivaGoood lawd its time to bin my tren i guess :(
jayiskWhy? Are the sides too much or you can still manage the side effects while getting the benefits of tren?
RivaThe sides aren't that bad but I always notice I'm a bit "dumbed" down on tren as when im not on it I'm really fast to respond with something witty if that makes sense. I guess this post explains it all atleast for me. For me possible brain damage is not worth it, I'm not making money with my body.
How do you manage brain damage jay??!
;-)
jayiskOh my brain is a mess and its not from tren. All i've been through in life i shouldn't be alive now. But I firmly stand by when God says your time is up then thats it.
Yes its important to know the possible damage that anything can do to you. Though if every study was accurate in saying that this or that will kill you..,no one would be alive anymore.
It's just I've noticed that with tren a..., among users of it who couldn't tolerate the side effects any longer.., went from "its the nectar of the gods and just arguing over the color of it" , to its the worst thing in the world for you.
I hear you on times up man, truth.
So look, you have this crooked. It isn't just possible, it is 100% definite. It is 100% irrefutable that tren destroys neurons at an alarming rate. Not kill you - I have seen you say that in another topic too - thats not what has been said here, not what has been suggested or implied. Nobody has said it is the worst thing in the world for you either.... so please, and I say this respectfully, keep that sort of inaccurate statement(s) from this thread, because this is about health and safety and facts. Opinions are all good particularly when people have a justification for the opinion, but saying things have been said or implied, that havent is unfair ya know?
I have read the study and reviewed the methods and design and they are very strong. Stronger still are the data that resulted. It is absolutely irrefutable, the damage this compound does. This said, people will do what they do and some earn a living from it and so on! I would argue that there is far more money made from selling it though.
So was this study done on humans? Not rats or any other types of rodent - and how many have been done that make it conclusive findings?
See, that's a really good question, especially considering I said "100% irrefutable" and then blurred the lines by jumping to jay's talking about tren killing people.
In the original post, I think it is very clear that we are talking about wistar rats and although I did not get into it, because it isn't intended to be an academic-like post, I was reasonably clear that we shouldn't dismiss animal studies given their similarities to humans. But at no point have I said this conclusively translates to humans (even though my opinion is that it does). I am saying the data in the study is irrefutable. If there is ambiguity in what I am saying, there shouldnt be, so to be clear; we have the study, we have risk on the forum shown via DNA testing, we have subjective experiences with cognitive issues in 100's of members on this forum alone. This is the data we have to make decisions on.
When I say irrefutable I am speaking only in the context of the study data. Is that absolutely transferable to humans? Well we dont know for sure, given the one major drawback of a human study is that we might have to kill them to complete the in vivo study!!!
Look, straight up, this is the most important example of why this is to be taken seriously, regardless of whether we enjoy or continue to use tren;
We have 2 experienced members of this forum who have had DNA testing done and show elevated risk markers for Alzherimer's Disease.
Then we have a study which leverages an animal model where genetics, biology and behaviors are very close to those of humans, where the enzymes in the brain that create the amyloid plaques are the same, and the plaques are identical iirc, and where measurements to assess changes act identically to those used in human models.
We then have a study that shows an advanced direct action of tren (causation, not correlation; and on animals NOT predisposed to Alzheimer's) on the brain to induce extreme beta amyloid plaque production.
But how would a researcher finish this study conclusion? Something like: The study findings suggest that tren may have the potential to induce Alzheimer's Disease in humans, more research is needed. That's how it usually goes!!! But yes, we can talk about the weaknesses of a study using an animal model till the cows come home. The gaps are as big as my fat old ass.
Still though, it doesn't get much more compelling than this and a proper advice might be; until we get the DNA testing done, we really shouldn't be going near this drug.
jayisk"because this is about health and safety".., I will respectfully leave it at that and not turn this into a debate based off data or opinion's.
Respect. +'s
But please, if you see holes in the study or how it translates to people, go after it man. Its only the things that were not said that I take issue with, that's all, honestly.
I haven’t tried it and doubt I will. I’m 30 and test e with eq is doing great things as of lately I think I’ll stick with the mild stuff and hard work. Thanks for posting this I’ve never seen you give bad advice.
I wonder if disturbances in sleep due to tren play a role in this :
https://www.sciencenews.org/article/sleep-brain-alzheimers-plaques-protein
“The brain may clean out Alzheimer’s plaques during sleep
If sleep deprivation puts garbage removal on the fritz, the memory-robbing disease may develop”
BY LAURA BEIL 6:00AM, JULY 15, 2018
If you have a read of the study (Im happy to send it to you, and honestly it is pretty accessible as a read, for the most part, unlike many academic doc's), and if my memory serves correctly, tren switches on proteins/enzymes that produce the plaques. It is a direct effect on those proteins/enzymes (again iirc).
I have not read the full study ... but have read the ergo article a couple times over the years. There are some things I have questions about:
Is the accumulation reversible?
on the bar chart where test and tren were administered simultaneously, there doesnt appear to be any discernble elevation from control value. What am I missing ?
I’ve read in other threads regarding this study that the tren compound was injected directly into the brain... is this true? ... I have not been able to verify or determine if it was performed for another study. Also could be broscientists making up shit.
I might hijack my girls Uni library ezproxy tonight to see if I can access the full paper.
Yeah so this is exactly why we need anyone and everyone who can, to put up posts like this and intelligent people like yourself and Carlos Danger and all te other lads etc. to ask really smart questions like these.
In the paper, they dont cover reversal of the plaque buildup. However primary neuronal cell death may be irreversible in the very young and those who's brains have not finished developing (up to somewhere in the mid-20s maybe older).
Considerations: The Neurodegeneration can contribute to many brain diseases, not just Alzheimer's. The animals used did not have any predisposition to A'sDisease (measured/selection methods). The human body does clear plaques at certain rates, however this buildup appeared extremely rapidly over a mere 2 days of very low dosing so I would imagine a serious intervention would be needed (in the form of zero carbs for a prolonged period of time) to allow the body attempt to normalise (but thats not necessarily possible for the dead braincells). Anyone predisposed to AD could induce it via tren and the medical community is constantly trying to find means to reverse the plaques with limited success.
Which chart? Sorry man but there are many on the study, let me know which one, but regardless you would need to convert to human values which will show greater differences. (i.e. the difference in blood volume between wistars and humans etc. The difference in an equivalent human dose etc.)
Consideration: part reason for the study in the first place is that tren is used in agriculture as a bovine growth factor. This is an issue because tren does not break down beyond 2 active metabolites. In other words it remains in our food chain and even if we are not injecting it, are likely being exposed to it regularly anyway. This has implications for clearing the plaques etc. and for childhood/fetal brain damage etc.
The researchers' methods are pretty damn solid. They did both in vitro (saturated brain neurons in the lab) and also in vivo by injecting animals, the very same way you or I would, low dose injection to the glute. So yeah broscience at play once again!
Ace VenturaI have sworn off the stuff as well. Learned my lesson, and then learned it again. Good post
Yeah likewise Ace, hopefully someone reads this and sees how you feel about it. The more info out there the better
Thanks for putting this together boss. Well written and informative as always.
Cheers buddy