IGF-1 LR3 & IGF1 DES - research info request
Afternoon boys and girls,
Can any of you folks point me towards definitive information/research material on both IGF-1 LR3 & also IGF1 DES? I am getting stuck into some research on Lr3 and Des and trying to find definitive information, rather than old forum info, co-signer bullsh!t or general broscience etc.
I am not interested in people's opinions, protocols, doses etc.... per se, just the facts around real research results and/or clinical studies etc. - that is to say the pharmacokinetics of the substances and their efficacy in promoting hyperplasia/trophy and effects/sides etc.
If anyone had any links or access to info I would appreciate being pointed in the right direction! I am of course trying to track down info myself at the moment and will share anything real/decent I find here.
Cheers all
Edit: I am going to post a list of references below here as I get through them
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I apologize for late the delayed joining,
I'm not a biochemist, but based on my knowledge as well as vast empirical data your conclusions may be misleading, let me specify with your permission
HailRazor - the IGF-lr version can't be detected by the ELISA kits which test endogenous IGF1, as this is "completely" different molecule, so there is no association between the IGD1-lr3 effect and tested serum IGF1 levels.
There is not great deal of articles on the IGF1-lr indeed, as it's used for research and biochemist industry purposes (and in next paragraph I'll touch why it's not used for humans), but here is an example for the proven superior anabolic effect of IGF1-lr on mice (IGF1 in contrast to GH for example) is identical between all mammals and so is its functioning (same in the human body as in mice) -
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18567600 . You may draw the requested conclusions
Now why Increlex is a simple IGF1 ?!
- The LR derivate was discovered much later
- The market for IGF1 is tiny. Increlex is used for a specific rare condition is which children who suffer from dwarfism don't react to GH treatment due to some mutation in their receptors of GH, really rare. Do u know how much a pharma company needs to invest in phase 1, phase 2 and phase 3 on approving a completely new drug for such small market ?! hundreds of millions, so the Increlex is apparently good enough for this condition, approving lr3 for this condition doesn't worth it so it hasn't happened.
Hailrazor (you're considered an authority here so help me with your honest opinion) remind us your honest feedback when used IGF1-lr3? felt its effect?
Karl,
I posted some of this info on another board....tell me your thoughts:
Increlex® (mecasermin [rDNA origin] injection) contains human insulin-like growth factor-1 (rhIGF-1) produced by recombinant DNA technology. igf-1 consists of 70 amino acids in a single chain with three intramolecular disulfide bridges and a molecular weight of 7649 daltons. The amino acid sequence of the product is identical to that of endogenous human IGF-1.
IGF-1 is bound to six IGF binding proteins, with > 80% bound as a complex with IGFBP-3 and an acid-labile subunit.
Most studies concerning the effects of IGF-1 derivatives have been carried out in animal models, with little to no data available for humans.
IGF-I variants which bind poorly to IGF-binding proteins show more potent and prolonged hypoglycaemic action than native IGF-I in pigs and marmoset monkeys
(DES - LR3)
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/13815325_IGF-I_variants_which_b...
If we are looking at 'Bioidentical' like HGH then IGF1 DES would be closer to IGF1 but still not the same
IGF1 70 amino - 7649 molecular weight
IGF1 DES 67 amino - 7365 molecular weight
IGF1 LR3 83 amino - 9111 molecular weight
I'm comparing it to HGH (synthetic proteins and bioidentical)
Human Growth Hormone 191 aminos with molecular weight 22,125
Recombinant Human Growth Hormone 191 aminos with molecular weight 22,125
Recombinant Human Growth Hormone 192 amino - Molecular Weight 22,256
Recombinant Human Growth Hormone 190 amino - Molecular Weight 21,978
Human Growth Hormone 176 amino - Molecular Weight 20,270
The Recombinant Growth Hormone used for therapeutic use is identical to ones own Growth Hormone
The IGF1 variants (DES/LR3) are not BioIdentical
See where I'm going with that?
And lastly,
The study you posted with mice
The Old World rats and mice, part of the subfamily Murinae in the family Muridae, comprise at least 519 species. Members of this subfamily are called murines.
Murine models have been commonly used for study, yet murine models may not reliably predict biology in larger animals and human
IGF-I analogues (DES/LR3) that bind poorly to IGFBPs are substantially more potent than IGF-I at stimulating growth in rats. However, rodents differ from other mammals because they contain only minimal circulating levels of IGF-II and they are poorly responsive to GH
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0955223595000070
Because the variants (LR3/DES) are not 'BioIdentical' I believe the effectiveness may be (very) short lived or not effective at all - protein immunogenicity (this is just my own opinion of course)
Rich Piana (love him or hate him) discusses this quite often about no real IGF1 on the black market. For the most part, he's correct.
In his YouTube vids....youlll see he is using:
Www.vicrin.com
IGF1 70 amino - 7649 molecular weight
Not any research peps (DES/LR3)
As you've stated:
"the IGF-lr version can't be detected by the ELISA kits which test endogenous IGF1, as this is "completely" different molecule, so there is no association between the IGD1-lr3 effect and tested serum IGF1 levels."
You are correct.....IGF1LR3 is not IGF1....it's not the same
Tks for the input and the comprehensive info HR, me like all of us have some important reading here
The human GH-IGF growth axis depends on proper concentrations of circulating GH, IGF1 and apparently IGF2.
If you refer to the 10th raw on - http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0955223595000070 - you'll see that (quote) "IGF-I (identical to the endogenous IGF1) itself depressed IGF-II concentrations and did not stimulate growth" , so whether it's Incralex (IGF1 identical product) or IGF1-lr3 it won't create optimal growth by itself when used by a healthy individual
I posted and emphasized on multiple places that IGF1 should be combined with GH for an optimal effect like many members here do. GH triggers directly local IGF1 (and other growth factors) secretion which are independent on circulating IGF1, GH also have some autocrine effects which are independent on IGF1, so GH present is required for proper growth
As shown is this very article the Lr3 derivate is more potent than the endogenous IGF1, and as a result of having much higher half-life has a much higher anabolic and anti-catabolic effect. You may ask many pros who've made contest preparations with and without IGF1-lr3 and were swore by the IGF1-lr3 dramatic effect .
Check out some info on the synergistic effect of combined GH and IGF1 - https://www.eroids.com/forum/hgh-peptides/rhgh/gh-igf1-and-should-i-comb...
I apologize for not having enough time till tonight
Read again pls http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0955223595000070 - combine it with my fierce posts everywhere which recommend to always combine the IGF1-lr3 with GH !!!! and cycle the IGF1-lr3 !!!
Add it to your personal experience with IGF1 - pls share it with us
Comment - all empirical data with athletes without an exception (!!!) shows dramatic anabolic (it's actually more anti catabolic but it serves the same purpose of building muscle), and any member here who ever experienced the Somedin (IGF1-lr3) will honestly testify on it, just like Dacky below.
All I can say is something appeared to be dramatically different when I incorporated IGF-LR3 and GH with my last cycle. Putting on 25 lbs and keeping 20 of it at this stage of the game is pretty remarkable. Most other bulks I only come away with 7-8 lbs. My diet is always meticulously monitored and the gains seem to be around the same no matter what the compounds. Only thing really different this go around was the IGF/GH combo. I don't know about all these rat, mice, monkey studies or whatever but based off my personal experience using it, that combo appears to be the real deal. I more than doubled my normal gains on cycle when using it. Doing it again this cycle, so we will see what happens.
Really interesting......
What is bothering me in all this is I have used my fare share of IGF-LR3 and it definitely "worked" for me. I felt the pump and I had (at least from my perspective) better muscle growth and retention compared to similar cycle when I was not running IGF-1 LR3. I also experimented with DES but found this less effective. So at least from my possibly unconsciously biased perspective it does work which contradicts the view that it doesn't. There are a number of folk on here including some very experiend and competitive members who swear by it. Really we need a study in humans which is highly unlikely.
I would be willing to run an experiment to running it solo to see how it works out at some point although it would again only be anecdotal.
+2 for pulling this together.
IGF-1 has growth-regulating, insulin-like, and mitogenic activities. rHu IGF-1 produced in E. coli is a single, non-glycosylated, polypeptide chain that contains 70 amino acids.
Recombinant Human Insulin-like Growth Factor 1 (IGF-1) is produced using E. coli expression system.
Insulin-like growth factor 1 (IGF-1) belongs to the family of insulin-like growth factors that are structurally homologous to proinsulin. Mature IGFs are generated by proteolytic processing of inactive precursor protein containing N-terminal and C-terminal propeptide regions. Mature human IGF-I consisting of 70 amino acids with 94% identity with mouse IGF-1 and exhibits cross-species activity. IGF-1 binds IGF-1R, IGF-2R, and the insulin receptor and plays a key role in cell cycle progression, cell proliferation and tumor progression. IGF-1 expression is regulated by growth hormone.
Clinical Trial for IGF-1 (MW 7649)
https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT00125190
IGF-1 Long R3 is a synthetic IGF1 analog with a different MW of 9111
Recombinant Human Long-Arg3-Insulin-like Growth Factor – I
(According to research peptide co info)
Long R3 IGF-1 is a chemically altered version of IGF-1. There is amino acid chains added that prevent it from being broken down and deactivated in the subject. The 83 amino acid equivalent of IGF-1 that is made in a sequence which substitutes the Glu (E) to the Arg (R) at the third position. The structure also has a 13 amino acid extension added by the N terminal. This results in a peptide which is much more biologically active.
IGF-1 DES is a synthetic IGF1 analog with a different MW of 7365
(According to research peptide co info)
Insulin Like Growth Factor (IGF)-1 (4-70), otherwise known as IGF-1 DES, produced in E. coli, is a single, non-glycosylated, polypeptide chain containing 67 amino acids. In vitro studies demonstrate that at equal doses DES (1-3) IGF is ten times more potent than IGF-1 at stimulating hypertrophy and proliferation in cultured cells. It is likely generated through post-translational modification in the sequence of circulating mature IGF-1 via protease action.
Studies and Prescriptions for humans use IGF1 (MW 7649) and not the analogs (Des / Long R3) (MW 7365 - MW9111)
https://www.akronbiotech.com/product/igf-1-insulin-like-growth-factor-1-...
https://vicrin.com/
http://www.increlex.com/
https://www.drugs.com/cdi/mecasermin.html
So here's some good info to start with.....best of luck
I recently listened to a podcast with chemist Patrick Arnold (of BALCO infamy)...who was suggesting that because IGF-lr3 is altered it essentially makes the lr3 ineffective. I will relisten & attempt to post precisely what he was referring to.
Per Patrick Arnold = "IGF-lr3 is an analog of IGF-1 that has an amino acid removed to not allow it to bind to IGF-1 binding proteins. It was meant for in-vitro studies, it was never meant for humans. Basically it was for petri dish studies. The fact that it doesn't bind to IGF proteins, your body breaks it down almost immediately. Your body uses IGF-1 by allowing IGF-1 to bind to binding protein 3, which titrates the IGF-1 and extends the half-life and allows it to deliver IGF-1 to tissue when it needs it."
This is from Tim Ferris Show podcast #143
Nice
If you notice.....I posted up Links to real IGF1 meds including IGF1 compounded
NONE of the Docs are prescribing the Analogs (research peps)
LR3 and DES have a total different molecular weight (used to identify in lab analysis)
Anymore info like this.....post it up....
I've done blood work post injection of LR3 and it didn't seem to elevate it drastically (above normal range)...so.....real IGF1 would be the best bet it seems
So this suggests that the analogs like LR3 don't have any effect or am I misunderstanding?
Lots of conflicting info out there.....but....if VICRIN and Increlex aren't manufacturing IGF1LR3.......gotta be a reason (synthetic Proteins - protein Immunogenicity)
I'm not going to be using it any longer....but that's just me
Maybe DES would be the better bet.....but you'd have to use quite a bit it seems
But.....DES and LR3 are not the same as IGF1...what's being prescribed for human therapeutic use (IGF1)
You have significant more wisdom on this topic... I was just joining the conversation with the little info that I could share... cheers brother!
That's really interesting
I've come across a couple of decent studies in addition to this
Ill get them posted this week when im back off the road
Brilliant, thanks brother!!!
Really appreciate that now, you are a gent!!!
noguruMy personal experience with igf1-des. I get an insane pump in the muscle injected. I use it for possible site enhancement. I just started it and have only tried it a handfull of times. Im using 100mcg splitt in the muscles I train. I have not experienced anny side effects. Except painfull pumps.
Thanks, you basically stated everything that I am not interested in!!
Lmao... I was thinking the same..
noguruSorry
;-)
You good bro....I get the same effects (muscle pump) when used pre-workout (LR3)
Hi brother, wish I had some info to share but i dont. Im researching these and other peps now myself. Want to throw some into next cycle. Gonna follow your thread and hopefully get some good info.
I will share anything I get with you Jay
It's hard to find real info!!
Thank you my brother! It sure as hell is hard to find anything other than gym rat science. Its out there though I'm sure. Anything I find I will pass along as well. I've been meaning to thank you for turning me on to the voodoo floss bands. Im using them on my elbows and wifey on her lower legs. So far so good! Heres one I owe ya +