+ 10 sustanon your doing it wrong...
History
The idea behind the creation of sustanon 250 was to develop a blend of esters that a person could inject less frequently, but still feel results quickly and have each of the esters pick up one after another for a longer action of testosterone.
Myths
Now that we know about the esters used in this blend, and how much of each sustanon 250 contains, we can explain how it works in the real world. Many so called forum 'guru's will claim that sustanon 250 should be injected every other day to maintain 'stable blood levels' as they call it. Nevertheless, in reality they are mistaken about the way steroid esters and half lives work.
When you inject sustanon 250 all four esters hit your system at the same time. However, the longer esters are the majority of the blend, and those heavy esters last a long time. Remember, a half life simply means that after that many days only half of what you injected will be leftover, and so on. Therefore, it doesn't just leave the body immediately as some people tend to think.
In this example, out of the 250 mgs total you have 160 mgs made up of 9 and 15 day half lives, which will last weeks after injecting. Hence, it is hard to understand why some people treat sustanon 250 as if it were testosterone propionate, when it only contains 12% of that ester.
Even with these facts you still have the majority of forum guru's claiming that sustanon 250 should be injected every 2 or 3 days, making it seem to be the most common way to run it. However, sustanon 250 should be injected every 11-15 days at a higher dosage, and each ester can peak up one after another to maintain stable blood levels.
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Isn't sustanon a popular TRT drug in the UK, while in the USA doctors always favor Cyp?
justsayinghiThis is the only thing I can add, and it's important. Yes, with the shorter esters involved, you will need at least EOD injections, ED is preferable. The problem is that longest ester ever of testosterone that's attached. Undecanote 20 days give or take, it will build up. Do you think when pros autopsies are released and their total test was 30,000ngml it was from cyp? It's buildup of undecanote. Sust is great, but just stick with prop for the fast actor.
Rustyhooker500mg sust done eod/ed. You cand see the spikes and dips and how fast esters fall out by distances of peak and trough. Pinning more often keeps esters more level. SUST IMO IS ADVANCED as in more skill and prep. Not as in better. Less hormone per cc as well due to ester weight
https://www.eroids.com/forums/steroids-qa/steroid-cycles/maximizing-cycles
This was posted by @twistedsister
…I think it’s time to revive this debate.
Yep time to revive it!
So good job @simonmagus84
I see a flaw with phenylprop, saying a 9-10 day half life which is strange because it's 3 to 4.5 day half life. And we know prop is gone in 2 days. Man I wonder about some of these charts of half life info. Lastly I don't think all esters hit you at the same time. Ex: Decanoate ester won't hit you when prop does...different release rate. I saw that statement up top
RustyhookerEd or eod is where i run it. @cryhavok has cited forums on this topic
Also Viking, and Iron game have made the case for ED injections.
That was always my stance but there are those who still have had\claimed success with 2x a week large dose cycles.
Myself, Ironman and a few other do 2x a week. Obviously more pins more stable blood levels with any hormone but this method works for us. Lol can't let a chart dictate how you feel. Phenylprop, Isocaproate, and Decanoate esters are at least 3 days or longer. Each a different half life. Again stability isn't a problem for some like it is others. But more pins more stability of hormone
Meant Ironmind not Ironman. Typing to damn fast
RustyhookerYa....ive seen those folks but its not imo a proper stance. Enough peaks and troughs causing e2 variations, acne etc. It failed for trt but looked cool on paper. Real world prop is gone in 48 and skewed numbers on those ester charts....
AnonHalsey...what say you?
I say on paper injections once every 10 to 14 ( or longer) days sounds great. But, it's not used by trt doctors in this country these days. It's like scientific theory/principles vs real world application/results. Doesn't always pan out like you hope.
How you metabolize, where pin, your shbg numbers, each individual needs a specific protocol. Micro dosing eod keeps my test levels stable and flat as a pancake. Still makes since to me to pin sust eod, myth or not.
Steroid esters:
Drug Active half-life
Formate 1.5 days
Acetate 3 days
Propionate 4.5 days
Phenylpropionate 4.5 days
Butyrate 6 days
Valerate 7.5 days
Hexanoate 9 days
Caproate 9 days
Isocaproate 9 days
Heptanoate 10.5 days
Enanthate 10.5 days
Octanoate 12 days
Cypionate 12 days
Nonanoate 13.5 days
Decanoate 15 days
Undecanoate 16.5 days
+1
+1
I'm really high right now so bear with me.
I thought about trying one large dose of sust every 2+weeks, and seeing where that sets my level.
Didn't the old Omnadren have an extra ester in it?? I feel like the space between the pp and the iso leaves a bigger gap than I would like if I were looking at pinning every 11 days.
Im willing to bet blood levels are steady the only spike i see is from the propinate but i believe thats why the mgs are lower on that ester im going to try running it in place of my script kess pinning is always a plus for me
Under my profile in forums i posted some info on esters. It wont let me put the link in. May add to this discussion.
post it up just quote it if you have to
Good shit.
Brother I disagree I pin it ed you can get by with a M/W/F at min to keep things even
Listen gym junkie i posted a chart cant you see lol 8)
Sometimes experience trumps all you know so as far as cycling goes i dont doubt what your saying... id like to see a little more bloods using both methods.
RustyhookerI pin it ed.
If it eas a weekly injection then why did it fail miserably in trt for which it was created?
It failed because those shorter esters half lives. And the fact that 250 sust is no where near 250mg of test due to ester weight. Folks complain on here weekly about their biweekly problems with sust but changes for the better with ed or eod.
Scan some of the forums where folks switched from sust to cyp or enth and look at their issues. Huge dip in hormones, estro crashes, and failed cycles.
EiWeiBIt failed because sustanon apparently hurts wayyy more than cyp. From what I read.
that was quick
While I agree what did they go to in the US? Cypinate supposedly to inject every 7 to 14 days depending on your Dr. That certainly isn't anymore stable.
X2
Im ed too on sust
I found it to be a game changer when i switched it up, particularly as im a fairly high aromatiser, so for the exact reasons you list here fella
Alot of good info look like opened the flood gates here lol
I'd personally like to see more bloods regarding sust but perhaps this is one case where the trt world and the cycling world do not intersect
RustyhookerBloods on a cycle would be interesting for sure! Unfortunately the blood tests for the trt folks was a huge failure.
Yea but how much of that was human error to im in on the pc promo i asked for cyp but emailed changing it to sust hopefully darius gets it in time ill play around with dosages im thinking 300 mg every 11 days so 1 ml then run that for a month and pull bloods on day 5 and day 10 see if they stay consistent... thoughts ?
twistedsister = great post...
I agree, bloods would prove or disprove the "theory"
Thanks bro
I think this is really interesting and twisted is delving into what is common practice and what is really necessary for trt. Particularly utilizing longer esters with lesser pin schedules for maintaining "natural" levels of the drug in your system. I think more research should be done into this and it looks to me like a lot of that information is going to have to come from communities like ours, testing things out and pulling bloods.
You see where im going with this
Id definitely like to see more bloods and less theory and going off of feel bevayse at the end of the day thats how sustanon was designed for the esters to piggyback off one another.
I'll volunteer
I am surprised to see this come from you, given the great research and work you have put into you HCG post. E11d is bad juju and you certainly should not be advising a steroid users FORUM to progress that route.
Unfortunately, you didn't look to (in the post) the esters at all. Had you, you would have examined them both individually and as combined in the sustanon 250 product, in terms of their pharmacokinetics. In reality, the individual esters and also the combination, do not support anything you have said.
Although TRT use is different to supraphysiological use, it could be supposed that we either want to closely mimic the body's natural delivery, or achieve a consistent steady delivery for optimal plasma levels and effects, or perhaps for TRT an in-between, Either way such a blanket assessment as yours doesnt work. If you want to mimic the body you need to use unesterified testosterone and deliver it in a way similar to the body's natural rhythm which is not feasible. If we are talking about AAS use, then we aim for above-normal steady-supply. If you want an inbetween, weeeeell... that's complicated but certainly doesnt work on e11D protocol.
'stable blood levels' we could probably agree would position testosterone levels at/above a certain blood plasma level to avoid low testosterone side effects? If so, then we seek to avoid a trough that falls to deep to avoid excessivel imbalance between hormones such as testo and estro. Similarly, we seek to maintain as little a gap between peak and trough to avoid wild fluctuations in hormone levels which would otherwise facilitate certain side effects. This should carry for both TRT to a certain extent and absolutely for supraphysiological users of testosterone, given the eventual remove of endogenous testosterone for both cohorts.
If you want to know about the actual pharmacokinetics of testoster esters and blends, you should read this: Comparative pharmacokinetics of testosterone esters - Hermann M. Behre and Eberhard Nieschlag
Its short, sweet and very much so to the point. It is definitive and covers both the individual esters and combo's from a human and computer simulated perspective.
Below is a simulation of total testosterone in 3 cycles which carries true for actual human levels. You can see that an everyday pinning schedule offers the most stable delivery of in-body unesterified testo. Followed by EOD. e11d+ however, offers awful delivery causing a 50% high peak delivery dropping to a 50% low on test levels which is also ~30-35% lower a level than an ed or EOD pinning schedule, leaving the door firmly open for hormone imbalance sides.
The facts are that ester combo's increase the initial peak plasma levels. Ester combo's spike higher than individual esters and drop to a lower trough than individual esters. The longer the gap between shots, the lower the trough in available unesterified hormone and/or serum levels. .
Giardap = Cornucopia of knowledge
+1
Good info bro id like to see some bloods from members who are dosing once a week or once every 11 days but i see you put some time intk contributing here
appreciated
Funny you say that re: bloods. If everyone were to really do that 'test onl'y cycle for each ester they choose to run, and get bloods before during after, as we always preach, we'd probably have a lovely little repository of results to reference
Might be worth canvassing people, and building something!
Look at that it was ED https://www.eroids.com/pics/pharmacom-sust-and-balkan-provi-labs
Really good numbers with that provi
That was running it .6 ml or 180 mg eod. With 25 mg provide Ed. Best cycle I've ran this far and it's not even close. I'm gonna follow what Viking said a few years back and run it Ed next. He said the when the esters all start to kick in it's magical. I wish I could find that quote. I thought it was In The viking tribute but it must've been lost during one of the glitches
Hey fusebox I know this is old but just curious at what ml did you end up running on sust for your ED pin??
Right whete the hell are they all at and the other issue is some of these "sustanons" are just a test e and cyp blend..
them sust bloods fusebox posted were probably the highest ive ever seen i dont remember how he dosed em.
And yea you kinda got me i didnt invest quite as much time in this one as my other forums its more of an outline
Well your hcg forum in particular is exceptional
Yeah sustanon 350... i nealry had a hemorage when i was warned about doing x amount ed lol
Rustyhookerapplause
Tip of the cap to you sir
Excellent response! There is a reason that the majority of the worlds men on trt are treated with testosterone E or C. Now we are starting to see even longer esters like undecanoate being prescribed as main stream. Stable blood levels is the key imo to well being when it comes to trt. Cycling is another ball game.
100% on the money JL