-2 Test/EQ cycle question.
I have read so many good things about this type of cycle. It's debated, but the people who are doing it seem to really love it and love the results.
I've been trolling 250 Cyp for weeks, had blood tests. No side effects whatsoever. I am ready to begin this Test-e/EQ cycle: Here are my questions:
From what I have read, this high EQ cyle, run for 18 weeks followed by two weeks off followed by four weeks Nolva/Clomid/HCG is highly effective. Slow, but effective, and that the muscle gained is true quality AND the effects last beyond the end of the cycle itself. The HCG is to help prevent loss of muscle during PCT and help restore testicles to their original shape if they've shrunk apparently.
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Can I switch directly from 250 Cyp to 400 Test-e and 750 EQ?
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What about ADDING Test-c as in; c200/e200/eq750. Low side effects with the e and the eq. Im already on c with none. OR
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Should I do even lower test? Yes I know but Ive read this in several recent unrelated posts. I believe it has to do with the Test e being....faster acting?. low test plus high eq (not to exceed 900 apparently). And yes, I know everybody's different. I'm simply posing the questions. So...
FROM. Trolling 250 Test Cyp
TO:
18 weeks. 400 Test-e/750-850-Equipoise
2 weeks. Off
4 weeks Day 1 Clomid 250mg + Nolvadex 60mg
10 days Clomid 100mg + Nolvadex 40mg
10 days Clomid 50mg + Nolvadex 20mg +
1000IU HCG 3 times each week
Yes?
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I did 1g a week on a trt dose and had my estro crash, not to mention RBC issues.
I’m experienced and I had to cut my EQ dose to 600 mgs a week. Stuff isn’t as safe as everybody says.
Agreed. I wouldn't touch that shit with a ten foot pole. Awhile back a comprehensive study was posted.
In as much as people here misguidedly accuse me of not listening simply because I'm debating, I've reached the same conclusion for myself. I'm considering a baby cycle now, still a cycle but using a couple hundred mgs of deca combined with some test I had a very good friend who was a top bodybuilder. He's passed away now but he got first place in Europe in a lot of competitions. When I first spoke with him about it he said Deca and test would be a good combo for me.
One wouldn't know it as you started out extremely set in your position to the point in calling for another forum. You seemed to be more interested in winning and being right than listening, and asking deeper, probing questions.
That said, I'm glad you're reflecting and weighing what you have learned and hopefully, whether you tell us or not, make good choices that will allow you to succeed with minimal risk. +1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_T8eNgDS8Q&ab_channel=SpiritScience
Well I had a weight lifting buddy of mine pass away many years ago from being too damn reckless using gear. I still think about that to this very day and that was long ago. The dude seriously thought he was trying to imitate me and a few others with dosages, thing is he knew how I was, and how I always talked down on super high reckless dosages and how obsessed I was even as a youngster with 70's era steroid bodybuilding and dosages. I just don't talk it, I walk it. Boy I'll tell ya, I'll never understand but hey maybe it's not to be understood. Anyways just a rant and glad you've come to a safer decision.
In the mid 90's my friend was diagnosed with HIV. He was actually my mom's friend from work, but we hung out when he came over. He was also very overweight and pear shaped. Anyway, right after he found out, he started hitting the gym, and at one point started juicing. He was 44. So he has HIV with all the medications that requires, and was juicing. after that he took first place in a number of BB competitions until he was 65 when he won first place in his age/weight class in Amsterdam. Very inspiring. Great guy. I remember him telling me, "With all the stuff I put in my body if I'm not dead already, fuck it." And he passed earlier this year at the age of 78.
My plan is:
300 Deca wk - 8 weeks - with 500 Cyp wk (already on 250) - 12 weeks- .5 Arimidex 2Xwk Considering 12.5 mg Dbol twice a day for four weeks. My gym game needs to be about twice what it is now as long as they keep up with the rising statistics I've had for the past few months. I should be ready to go by the time the gear gets here. It's gonna be another month and a half.. From what I have read in the forums, this is a very low dose cycle. My gaps in knowledge are about the dbol since I've read to place it at the END of the cycle, AFTER the deca, but I don't understand the reasoning. Also, PCT. I've read that Deca has a long half life and test has what, two weeks, so if I am not mistaken, wouldn't I WAIT three weeks, maybe four, after my last pin to start PCT?
First off the advice you've gotten has been correct. Now the dbol during middle or end of cycle is broscience and various reasons for using at different times during cycle. Both dbol and deca combined will result in more water retention and bp issues. When it comes to nandrolone, specifically the Decanoate ester, this ester will have a very long half life of 10- 14 days. So overall in my opinion 6 weeks minimum after last deca pin for starting pct, some may disagree. I just don't think 4 weeks is sufficient time, gotta be on safer side with such a longer half life ester. Some folks never recover after deca cycle. Gotta remember folks test positive for deca more than a year later all the time as I've seen this a few times. Deca's 2- 3 metabolites stick around for a long time too.
I personally wouldn't take anything, but at least drop the deca and dbol, you don't need the extra water weight and BP.
Okay I got all that water and BP are treatable.
I was just running 800 mgs of Eq. I just dropped it to 600 mg and dropped my test from 1,000 mgs to 700. I did this because I couldn’t eat. My gains slowed dramatically until I lowered my dose. Now I can eat again and I’m gaining more weight because I can eat again. I was getting headaches. My BP was high. Less is more sometimes. This is not bullshit either. Look at my cycle I posted. It worked for a few weeks then It caught up with me. As much as it sucks I will have to abort this cycle in a couple weeks of things don’t go better health wise. I have a daughter and a 4 year old Autistic son and many people that love and depend on me. I have to think of what’s more important. Shit can kill you. It was a dumb move on my part for trying to run shit that high. Of you die what will your lives ones feel like. It would suck. This is all I’m going to tel you. I tried.
So looks like this is your first cycle and if so you're just spinning your wheels by trying to include too many other anabolics. Stick to a beginner first cycle. Why make things complicated? I'm seeing this more and more. Guys seem to think what's best for someone else is best for them and that's just not the case. Be your own man and figure out what works for you especially as a beginner. I can't recommend dbol, eq or deca for you as a beginner.
If you're going to do a cycle, at least follow first cycle protocols (we have a forum for it) 500mg test per week is more than enough.
A good man once said,
...he passed earlier this year at the age of 78.
That’s why this site is good. I made a post about sleep aids and one of the sources just said I might have magnesium deficiency. He was right and I didn’t have to take sleeping pills. I just take a vitamin and I’m all good
I remember that conversation. I mentioned to stay away from magnesium oxide. What form of magnesium did you choose?
Glycinate
Same, I went with the glycinate. Without a doubt an all around improvement.
Calmag is famous for its help with sleep, and the relationship between calcium and magnesium in the body can be more balanced.
1tbsp Calcium Gluconate
1/2 tsp Magnesium Carbonate
1 tbsp apple cider vinegar (filtered otherwise the calamag will be cloudy)
Stir until it's all bubbly. Add 8 or 12 oz of boiling water and stir vigorously until clear.
Add some ice and you have Cal mag. Lasts for 2 days.
Do not drink a bunch of Cal mag at first. It will give you the runs. If you look at the store or some laxatives are made up of magnesium. Start at 2 or 4 oz each night and work your way up. It handles cramps, joint pain, certain types, and really helps with sleep.
Okay so on 500 mg of test what else am I taking along with it and what's my PCT?
Not relevant. He's got "clinical studies done over 10 years of 200 people". He's not going to "listen to somebody who's been bodybuilding for 20 years... No science degree... But lots of experience..."
He'd rather ignore both studies and experience and take over a gram of AAS to burn fat and "retain" muscle at a time when he weighs 270lbs with approximately 30 percent of his body weight being fat.
He will figure it out when the headaches hit. Then has to see a doctor with high BP.
At this point, everyone needs to realize, and picture in their minds 81lbs of fat. It’s literally two 5 gallon buckets full of fat. Fat.
I’ve never heard of anyone running EQ that much higher than test. Have you run a higher test cycle? If not, why would you even consider running EQ this high? I don’t think it’s a good idea at all. If anything, why not run it at the same mg as the test and see how you react to it. EQ isn’t something you want to play around with. No steroid is. If you don’t know that test e and test c are basically the same thing, you should hold off on this cycle for a while, stick around here, and learn some important stuff first. I’m not trying to be a douche bag or a wise ass. I just think you’ve gotten some fucked up information and need to reconsider this cycle. Regardless what you choose to do, good luck.
Thank you. ;To clarify, I am aware that "test is test" I was simply asking since in several of the posts I read about the high EQ cycles mentioned it as preferred.
I have decided against it. The EQ that is. And you're quite correct, I'm already on 250 of Cyp with very good tolerance. My body is responding at the gym and to diet very sensitively. However I lack mass and strength.
I am considering a "baby cycle" of 250 deca, for 10n weeks 12mg dbol 2 X day for four, .;5 Arimidex 2xwk, 500 test cyp 12 weeks, nolva for PCT. I can't imagine that will kill me. I'd like to do a cycle.
(Here's when I get noogies on the schoolyard, right? LOL)
That cycle sounds a lot better, although the Dbol will feel great the first two weeks, it will end in bloat and you’ll start feeling fat and lose any definition. At least that’s what happened to me. I was at such a good place last July and thought I could run four weeks of Dbol and add some size. Well it definitely did, around my waist, chest, and face. Fucking sucked!!! Don’t get me wrong, everyone was telling me how huge I got, but I knew that I ruined all my hard work in four weeks.
Bro, Come’on….
Born in 1967, roughly 60lbs overweight… and you want to run a mass cycle?
Get the weight off first, your knees and lower back will thank you. Get your cardio dialed in. Get your BMI, cholesterol and BP in a healthy zone, then think about a cycle.
Losing weight is simple.
Eat less. Move more.
I don’t give a shit about your genetics. Every mammal on earth will lose weight if they eat less and move more.
Good luck.
+1 Well said. I tell folks all the time ya gotta start with a good foundation first. Everyone seems to want to go from 1 to 10 as fast as possible. One step at a time.
Every person I’ve heard blame their weight on genetics did so while cramming their face with 2,000 empty calories at one sitting.
I absolutely love beer and fried food! The Iowa State Fair is my Graceland. If I lacked discipline, my ass could easily skyrocket to obesity.
Using PED’s for weight loss, especially if you’re in your 50’s, sounds like a recipe for a heart attack IMO.
Yeah the older we get, especially in 50s or 60s we gotta be careful. The system doesn't react like it once did when younger. Just recently I've heard of a few older bodybuilders from my area that are in late 40s, early 50s having heart issues. Unfortunately one passed away.
The OP says he’s done his homework. LOL
He’s obviously got the same discipline doing homework as he does with his diet and workout routine.
I’ve never ran EQ at 750mg a week. Plus, EQ is a sloooow drug. You have to run that stuff on a long cycle. If he runs that amount, by week 16 his blood will be like gear oil and since he’s already overweight he’ll probably be carrying an extra gallon of it.
We’ve all given him solid advice. Hopefully he takes it.
Yeah about EQ it was never worth it in my book. Like you said it takes too damn long. And yea good advice was given for sure.
Your clearly not taking on board anything that the experienced members are telling you to do so why keep asking the questions?
Your going to do whatever you want anyway so go ahead and do it.
Noone here should be giving you anymore help or info as you seem to know it all anyway and you clearly are not taking on board anything anyone is recommending to you!
See you in 20weeks down the line with little to no progress (thumbs up)
I'm asking questions because this is supposed to be a place to get them answered, not to be berated because I don't immediately go along with the crowd, when clinical studies are contradicting them.
I'll see you in 20 weeks with more progress than I would have made without AAS, not as much as I would have if I started thinner, but more than with nothing at all.
Bullshit. How would you know? Is there another you to make a comparison with? But wait, I am another you, approximately the same age at the time; just a little more into the future. Based on your own admission, (five pounds a week) I did that without AAS. If you end up within a few pounds and a few days of what I accomplished naturally, your efforts are negligible which proves my point. (and the point others are trying to impress upon you.)
You'll have won nothing. You'll have proven nothing. There won't be a special forum for those wanting to lose weight using AAS because using AAS to primarily lose weight is a bad idea. That is not to say that some of the benefits of TRT is a better metabolism which in turn can make it easier to lose weight. (it can also make you hungrier so unless you're eating right, working out, and watching your estrogen levels, you can also get fatter).
Big difference though. My natural test levels improved; yours won't. My cholesterol fell into normal range; yours won't. My cardio health was better; yours won't be. I saved money and didn't have to deal with PIP or PCT. And I didn't rebound... we'll see in your case.
There are in fact many others I would make comparison with. You can read in the forums people who have been in their mid 300 lb range using AAS and dropping 100 lb in 20 weeks. Not the most common story but it's out there.
Just as you can read about people handling gyno with AI and you said if you're not eating right or going to the gym. Right well I've repeatedly said that without those anchor points there's really no point. So I agree with everything you're saying except what I consider to be a misplaced idea that AAS for people who are overweight is not beneficial as long as it's done correctly for the individual. It's not a belief based on my ego it's a believe based on the studies I've read. These are extensive medical clinical studies with hundreds of subjects. However you make your case with such verve and emotion it's difficult not to try and reconcile that you sides. But it's not the easiest thing to do. Makes my brain hurt. Do I listen to a clinical study done over 10 years of 200 people? Or do I listen to somebody who's been bodybuilding for 20 years... No science degree... But lots of experience...
OMG, ANYONE can drop 100lb in 20 weeks. That's why your studies are antidotal to your position and your argument a strawman argument. Your usage is as unnecessary as wearing suspenders with a belt.
Those studies, done on TRT candidates, recorded the positive benefits of Increasing low testosterone levels in men. those men are not losing 100lbs in 20 weeks sitting on the couch eating a tub of ice-cream.
The studies you've read are not relevant to your stated primary goal. The weight loss benefits are secondary, and a byproduct of, an increased libido, better sense of well-being, more energy, and higher metabolism. Which are the primary goals of TRT.
If you went to a doctor and say I want to lose weight, the last thing he's going to say is, "Let's put you on testosterone".
If you had the discipline I had, you'd have the same results, in the same timeline, with the added benefits of, increased natural T levels, an increased libido, better sense of well-being, more energy, and higher metabolism.
Your ego, your google knowledge, is standing in your way. You think you're right. And the fools with firsthand experience are suffering a dilutional case of bro-science. No, no ego at all here. Just intellectual superiority.
What's your end game? You went way beyond case study and stepped into the Bodybuilding lifestyle. You'll need to deal with recovering your natural testosterone levels. Your metabolism will change, your motivation will drop. And you'll have not developed the fortitude to keep your weight off without a crutch.
It is to be seen if you'll succeed in your 20-week experiment, or where you'll be a year from now.
"no ego at all here. Just intellectual superiority." :LOL
First, clinical studies are not "Google knowledge." These are double blind, legitimate clinical studies, in spite of the fact that the results may not align with your viewpoint. Being sarcastic about the data does not lessen it's legitimacy.
The main problem I run into are the sarcastic, condescending replies. They seem to be loaded with as much real world experience as with bro science. When placed side by side with a Harvard study, t's confusing enough without the high horse BS.
And I'm still unclear on what the problem is. If I am on AI, BP meds and have a good PCT, do my bloodwork, hit the gym, have a good diet, what exactly is the problem? So I gain a little less. At least I won't be losing muscle mass.
And what are you talking about "losing motivation"? Why all the dark predictions? You did this didn't you? And you what... I want to know. You read all the studies and what, they turned out NOT to be correct? You didn't hit the gym? Diet got fucked up? Gyno kicked in in spite of AI? BP problems?
You are missing the point. The studies are correct, your interpretation and "execution" of them are not. Your head is filled with google knowledge. The reference is to you, not the studies.
You are not following TRT protocol, you have a mindset that drugs can fix (control) everything. So, it's not a surprise you're choosing to wear suspenders with your belt because if one can do the job alone (diet and exercise) than both must be twice as good right?
You are shutting down your natural production of T. When you transition off your cycle is where the rubber meets the road. No, I did not do as you are doing. I naturally increased my T levels, you're suppressing yours. Do you know what PCT is?
Why are you asking me about the doom and gloom? Google it.
I appreciate the heartfelt feedback. I honestly do. The forum beat-downs get a little tiresome when all I am doing is attempting to reconcile the data.
Thank you again
RustyhookerHes trolling.....and its working
Lifted-presence92Rusty as you already know first cycle it’s mandatory 750test 700 tren!
RustyhookerDont forget drol.....
Lifted-presence92I need all the drugs under the sun!!!!
I make no apologies for asking questions. You offer little except sarcasm. I'm not saying the subject needs to be so serious but piss off with the schoolyard bully crap. This is about my health and physical future. And, from what I have read and seen on these forums, CENSORED etc is that no one knows shit unless it's on paper. I check my sources. Trolling? You're the one pushing buttons.
I do think, for this very reason in fact, that TRT or AAS as a weight loss thing should have it's own forum.
BB's will always push back on this group but really they should have somewhere to refer them instead. Make sense?
RustyhookerStill talkin? Go cycle. Says in your words #I've been trolling 250 Cyp for weeks
Still trolling....im not gonna cosign a steamy pile
Read the rules, NO source talk in the forums. I wouldn't use a source as an unbiased resource for information; it's a sales pitch.
There won't be a special forum for those wanting to lose weight using AAS. Because, using AAS to primarily lose weight is a bad idea. That is not to say that some of the benefits of TRT is a better metabolism which in turn can make it easier to lose or control weight. You also are ignoring the difference between the TRT studies and AAS use in a cycle (which you are undertaking). Unlike those studies, you'll need to control the numerous side effects because you chose the way of the Bodybuilder and not the way of TRT. Which brings us full circle to needing to listen to the advice you've been given.
AAS can also make you hungrier so unless you're eating right, working out, and watching your estrogen levels you can also get fatter. Starting out with more fat, you'll also be more prone to getting Gynecomastia (aka, gyno, aka man boobs)
Lifted-presence92Bro rusty gives everyone a hard time no one is an exception I’ve been in the firing lane also it’s how some dudes just joke around one here some more than others if you engage he’s gonna keep going man just letting you know.
RustyhookerHes trollin....and winning. Folks still reply. Lol
Settling this
AAS USE AND THE OVERWEIGHT
I believe that the majority of the pushback on the overweight using AAS cycles is from very simple things, like passing along faulty data or data which has been mischaracterized or placed in a bias context, having faulty data and accepting it as truth. Accepting “everyone knows” as a reason or “Bro, are you serious?” or “You can’t…”
First, My argument is that AAS ARE BENEFICIAL for the “overweight.” AND if used correctly can be done safely.
I do believe the AAS/Overweight dialogue in turn, needs it’s own Forum space. I have questions like, “Can you incorporate AAS with intermittent fasting?” THAT is not a question for BBs. It’s a question for the growing population of adult males in varying degrees of health or weight, using AAS as TRT or otherwise. If you agree, “Like” this article.
AAS sites are beginning to carry HCG and Semaglutide, which is for weight loss, so the number of overweight people looking for answers about AAS will only increase. So, instead of discouraging overweight people from using AAS, consider referring them to a separate Forum so everyone wins.
Background.
I am overweight and about to embark on a “grown up” cycle. I have been advised against it by a grip of people on these boards. However, the studies they have cited have NOT correlated with evidence against AAS for the overweight. The following are some of the reasons cited. I should mention that MOST posts lack reasoning. They make statements in a condescending tone without offering sound, supporting data.
“You won’t gain as much [so why use AAS at all until you’re at 15%?]” is one argument. Not exactly seaworthy. Obviously any gains are worth pursuing so while they may not be as much as a thin person, a person also does not lose lean mass while on AAS if he follows a dieting protocol, which is an obvious benefit. The gains are slower that is true, but they’d be even SLOWER without AAS*, and the losses are all fat loss.
“You’ll have a heart attack.” First I think it’s entirely hypocritical for anyone using stacks of synthetic hormones to be condescending to people about health risks. That said, I fully acknowledge there are greater risks in certain areas associated with AAS and being overweight. Blood pressure, sleep apnea, diabetes, all kinds of shit, which is why RESPONSIBLE AAS use should be advised. Not “all or nothing”
“You’ll retain more water.” Who among you has not utilized the multitudinous solutions available for water retention?
There have been many more reasons given but they lack enough merit to comment on.
Here are some real scientists:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10865771/
*“and once again the proportion of lean loss to total weight loss is greater in thin people than in those who have larger body fat burdens.”
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1335979/
“..It is concluded that testosterone treatment of middle-aged abdominally obese men gives beneficial effects on well-being and the cardiovascular and diabetes risk profile”
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8574271/
Nandrolone decaoate = ASND “After 3 months, there was a significantly greater decrease in subcutaneous (SQ) abdominal fat in the ASOX (ASND) group compared to the TE and PL [CONTROL] groups although body weight changes did not differ by treatment group. There was also a tendency for the ASOX (ASND) group to exhibit greater losses in visceral fat, and the absolute level of visceral fat in this group was significantly lower at 3 months than in the TE and PL groups. “
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25982085/
“Testosterone replacement therapy demonstrates beneficial effects on measures of obesity that are partially explained by both direct metabolic actions on adipose and muscle and also potentially by increasing motivation, vigour and energy allowing obese individuals to engage in more active lifestyles.”
I concede that the studies above are NOT on people taking 400mg of test and 400 mgs of EQ a week. It is RARE to see a bodybuilding clinical study, mainly for economic reasons I would guess. It is extremely expensive to do a study. So these studies are on people using moderate doses of AAS but I would guess that an otherwise healthy individual would respond similarly at higher doses regardless of weight within reason.
So what have we established?
You mean, what have you tried to establish.
Bullet point 5 is your opinion.
You've weighed the "pros", now list the cons. You are a victim of conformation bias and want instant gratification. A child's mindset. Time to become a grownup and realize that the adult thing to do, the responsible thing to do, the healthy thing to do, the financially prudent thing to do, is "delayed gratification." Start your AAS after you've lost some weight.
Although benefits are present in AAS use for both skinny and overweight people, often times there are more risks associated with overweight.
Get the diet and training right for an extended period of time first (this will result in a lower bf%). Then you can work in AAS if you want at that point. Too many people jump to AAS first then lose everything after the cycle because their diet and training was not right.