posted Tue, 02/25/2014 - 15:49
2831
Night Sweats On Test P
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I am on my test p taper portion of my 12 week test e cycle. 2 pins in last night at 4am I wake up drenched lol I was not expecting that from test p. Though that was for you boys on tren! From what I have read it seams to be rare but it does happen from test p.
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i get it all the time from everything deca, test ,tren changing sheets at 4am has become the norm lol
It can happen with an AAS really,,,depending the person
and dosages.
Well tonight sweating was minimal compared to the night before
Check you estrogen, the only time I have issues with night sweats on test, long or short ester is when my estrogen is off.
Down UnderMaybe you got relabelled Tren Ace ;D
... Just kidding.
As below, what does your Prop total weekly dose look like compared to your Test E?
Or, possibly even more likely.... You just had a somewhat intense dream you can't remember. Happens to me a couple nights a week usually
With the short half life of prop and the impact it has on plasma levels, you can't count it gram for gram like long esters. It does not compare.
Down UnderYes, I'm well aware that ester weight has a large bearing on the effects it exerts. However...
Care to elaborate on your following statements?
"... impact it has on plasma levels...."
"It does not compare."
In what sense is your reference to 'comparison' being made on?
You asked "what is your weekly prop dose look like". If you do truly understand the difference between short and long esters, then you know that they cannot be compared gram for gram in terms of effects on plasma levels.
Down Under... I am, of course, talking in regards to levels of testosterone.
Looking at comments below, it looks like you might be talking about levels of estro?
Down UnderPlasma level effects can be controlled by choosing the correct injection frequency. 400mg of testosterone in the blood stream that got their fast, is the same as 400mg of testosterone in the blood stream that got their slowly.
And, just as a side note, I think you'll find that amongst the medical community, it is generally accepted that the enanthate ester has a half life of around 5.5 days.. Prop has a half life of about 4 - 4.5 days. So the difference in regards to the OP is not that significant.
Now, if you were talking in regards to actual amount of available hormone per milligram of esterified product, then yes, I'd say you were correct... 1 gram of testosterone enanthate contains less actual hormone than 1 gram of testosterone propionate.
But, taking this in to account, you adjust your injection frequency.. and voila, you are now able to main plasma levels.
I just love how many variances there are floating around on half lives. Lol. My wife is a nurse, so I tend to follow the info given in her drug books, which happens to match what my HRT doc has to say.
You seem like a sharp guy, and I can def appreciate and respect an intellectual debate. However, half life on AAS compounds is and always has been a debatable topic. One thing that removes all doubt, and is what lends credibility, is the consistent blood results posted in this community.
You're argument is that prop and enanthate are comparable in terms of plasma effects. If that is the case and they are so similar, why is it that we see plasma concentrations peak with prop in less than half the time it take enanthate? Furthermore, we also see plasma levels decrease substantially more rapid with prop than with enanthate. This is the reason we advise the prop taper.
Sorry brother but the two are not as similar as you believe.
I realize that you're talking in terms of maintaining stability. That's is exactly what we strive for here, so I agree 100% with that statement. But again, the two cannot be count the same gram for gram. By telling this to someone who is inexperienced, they believe that 200mg of prop would be the equivalent of 200mg of cyp spread out over the course of the week.
In actuality, 200mg of cyp will have your serum test scoring between 1000-1400, whereas 200mg of prop spread out over the week will have your levels pegged out on a 1500 ng/dl scale. You'll find validation of this in the blood work sections.
Down UnderAgreed, the variances on half life of esterified hormones is not an exact science, per se. I do however believe that the enanthate ester falls somewhere between the 5 - 7 day mark, and propionate 3.5 - 4.5 day mark.
Intellectual debates give credibility to places like these.. Gives a guest to the site an indication that we're not just your typical "meat head" ;) but I also do agree, that blood work is definitely a very good piece of solid evidence in which to work from, and therefore, draw possible conclusions. I'm trying to find a study in which a singular dose of Testosterone Enanthate was given to a (I think it was just a small group) group, and blood levels were tested daily. The dose was 250mg. By day 5, blood test showed that levels of hormone in the blood had halved. Now, I will definitely try to find this study for you, but for now take that "as is"...
My argument is that they are comparable in terms of effects if certain criteria are met. Such as, matching the dosing frequency with the [estimated] half life of the ester.
If talking in regards to a single dose, then yes, you are completely correct. They are about the same as apples and steel bars (in terms of plasma levels). As we have both eluded to, a short ester means faster absorption. It means the peak is arrived at sooner, and therefore, so is the trough.
Personally, I think the ideology of a prop taper is a misuse of the compound. The average blood concentration of Test Prop, injected EOD at 100mg/day, yields approx. 80mg of actual testosterone. Ignoring reduction by the various enzymes, we can work out, with a [estimated] half life of 3.5 days... 4 days after the last injection, we have roughly 100mg of Propionate serum. 8 days after last injection, we have around 45mg of it left.
With a taper at 100mg[80]/EOD week 1, 75mg[60]/EOD week 2, 50mg[40]/EOD week 3, we get the following results. (I'm using the numbers inside the brackets... those are the actual hormone amounts, excl. ester weight)
4 days after last injection, we're sitting at roughly 65mg. 8 days after last injection, we're sitting at 29mg. These numbers seem like they're ok, but if the general consensus amongst the AAS using community is to wait 3 - 4 days after our last injection, on a 100mg/EOD cycle, then we can take the blood level at this point to be anecdotally efficient for PCT recovery purposes. For the non-taper, we see a level of ~100mg at day 4. Therefore, we can conclude (from our hypothesis), that once serum levels drop to, and below this point, it is beneficial and most efficient to start our PCT.
With the taper, we see that at the last injection, the blood levels are now at 92mg. We just wasted 2 weeks of tapering, when we could just have waited 4 days after our last 100mg injection. Isn't one of our main end-goals, to get recovered as quickly as possible? I know a lot of guys believe that the taper helps them recovery quicker, but I have a hard time seeing it without some controlled tests done. There are just too many variables.
I believe they are the same in many ways, but also very different in others
"But again, the two cannot be counte the same gram for gram."
I completely agree with this statement. I've never alluded to the fact that I think or believe, that gram for gram, 100mg of testosterone enanthate, and 100mg of testosterone propionate, contain the same amount of active hormone. No validation of blood work required
a look at their molecular structure gives all the insight required. A bigger carbon chain (long esters) takes up more space per unit, so it's natural to equate this with less active hormone. I do however, believe that by taking advantage of dosing and injection frequency, this difference can be nullified.
Thanks for the awesome debate brother, it's been very stimulating at 3am ;)
Well said.. The ideology behind the prop taper is simply designed so that a small, fast acting dose can be incorporated at a point in time when long ester injections have ceased. This is so that the rapidly declining plasma levels can be slowed with a compound that has the potential to clear the system much faster. This is solely for the purpose of offsetting side effects associated with rapid fluctuations in hormone levels.
Problem with the concept, however, is how the user interprets and incorporates it. Too often people can't break free of the mindset that injecting a compound equals increased gains. As a result, frequency and dosage amounts aren't established to meet the true goal of a taper. In the end, the user still experiences the "crash" symptoms, although for a shorter timeframe than is expected with a longer ester.
Down UnderAgreed, I also believe that a taper was designed to do this. As in, reduce the "crash" symptoms felt with a longer decline from a longer ester. Looking at Enanthate, around 2 weeks after last injection, levels are low enough (104mg) to start PCT and get the recovery going. Sure, those 2 weeks are going to be uncomfortable, but I think in the grand scheme of things, getting off everything and getting into PCT quicker is a more favourable position to be in.
I totally understand the concept behind a taper, but are those extra 2 - 4 weeks of gradual comedown worth the same amount of time still being shut down?
I guess it comes down to a personal preference and how each person recovers individually.
Hahaha, agreed! I've seen tapers that look like a short bulking cycle of Prop...
It's all about personal preference. The 2-3 week timeframe between last enanthate pin and pct still applies while using the prop taper. No additional time is spent shutdown.
SwoleStanhopeVery well said
What's your AI looked like ft beginning until now?
12.5 arom ED split dose since week 2.
500 test e 12 weeks I'm on week 13 taper
Up the AI to 25 mg. When you added the prop, you plasma levels were still
High from the E. Prop raised them more plus it has a higher conversion rate. When e2 rises, body temp goes up.
Im only running 100mg eod week 1 75 week 2 and 50 week 3. Still increase ai?
Yes. When you added the prop, you didn't adjust your AI, so e2 will have risen.
Down UnderBy factoring in the usual injection frequency of both the Enanthate and Propionate esters, and their peer-reviewed half life, I would argue that by the time he did his first injection of prop, and subsequent second dose, that his blood levels were actually lower.. even after the first dose.
And can you please direct me to the study where it was concluded that testosterone from a propionate ester converts to estrogen significantly faster than others... I'd like to read it
SwoleStanhopeHow much Test E were you pinning prior to tapering with the Prop? It might be from hormone fluctuations if you reduced the amount of Test from E to P. I find that I myself sweat more after reducing the Test dose, but that just might be me.