+ 2 Less gear and cleaner gains is better than abusing steroids. For the newbies
Hi everyone
The last time i was actively on here was a few years back when i tried various with cycles, i've had a 2-3 year gap and started a cycle again but with the a different mindset i.e. using lower amounts of gear for longer.
So i went from:
steroid user for a few years > to no steroids for 3 years> now steroid user at lower dosages
Personally i can say that i think this is way better taking lower gear dosage for longer in terms of
1) Quality of size
2) Lower severity in side effects
3) Bouncing back to normal from post cycle.
4) Less mood swings (hardly any to be honest)
Here's some brief comparisons and some advice from my personal experience:
Previous Cycles:
i made good gains when i a few years back, i used sus, tren, deca, HGH, dbol oxys .....(on various cycles, not together )
dosages usually were 500-750mg of a test 400 mg tren/or 400-500mg deca per week alonside orals. These dosages are not overly crazy either
Previous Results
I remember i generally put on about 1.5 - 1.75 stone after a cycle and maintained usually 1.25 stones
Post cycles i used to have alot of issues with getting erections etc which i researched well and tried all sorts of things but ultimately i had to really wait naturally for it to restore the body back to normal,i followed PCT protocols but still had issues
Break
I then had a break now for about 2 years so the body is fresh!
New Cycles
I've been on 2 cycles since restarting gear. one of the cycles was
Sustanon at 125 mg per week - i ran this for 20 weeks
Anavar 20mg per day -this was run for 6 weeks, then break for 4 weeks and back on last 6 weeks
New Results
over the 20 weeks i put on 1 stone and 2 lb , but what a difference.it was solid solid solid mass,
i am usually a very very temperamental person, its very easy to trigger me off especially when on a cycle but this time round i was so relaxed. i had the aggression in the gym but it was just right, never anywhere else, i suppose you need to understand what works for you.
Post cycle - this was a big one for me, i had no issues at all for the first time after running a cycle. it was amazing!
the second cycle i went on involved Test E 125mg 18 weeks Deca 150 mg per week first 8 weeks only and Tren E 8 weeks at 200mg,,,
Results wise again i had previously used these same compounds at higher dosages and yes i had more size etc but this time round i can only stress quality! the difference in the quality of the mass gained is amazing, its very clean. Again no problems at all with PCT! 
Obviously diet is important and i had kept relatively clean diets since i started training but i just wanted to put out my personal experiences and advice incase any new or moderate user of steroids can benefit and try this...sometimes less is more
You should want to be economical and extract the best possible gains from the smallest amount of gear, this equates to efficiency and also its less troublesome on the body and the pocket!
what you guys think?
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Less usually is better, but just don't go to low to where you are basically just putting your self a little above normal. If you are going to shut yourself down, you might as well be more than just a little over natural levels.
I think fantastic, well done. +
You have supplied just the right amount of test to give you enough test to convert to estro and dht
Then you have your power anabolics at the right dose for you personally to do the heavy lifting! (pun intended)
Wtf is a stone
This :-p
lol! How much does that weigh?
I’m betting a whole lot more than 14lb!
Lol a stone is equivalent to 14 lb
In UK it's used as a standard measurement of weight...
To many new guys go straight to tren. Never underestimate an old fashioned Test and provi cycle. I’m going to throw this out and expect some back and forth. A 1000 mgs of Test outperforms 500 Test 400 deca with dbol as a 4 week kicker. Once it’s all said and done. When the bloats gone I beleive the Test only was more efficient. That was my results anyway. The magic ticket with either is the food. Most new guys think there eating enough but there not. I can also say my attitude and libido were much better with the Test only cycle. A newbie can get those results with only 500. When I started 250 was a beginner cycle and I made gains on that. For your avg non competitive guy Test is best...Safer to.
Testosterone is a medication, in essence. Like any other medication, some will tolerate it, others won’t. Some will get minimal side effects or counterindications, others will have every negative side in the pamphlet. That’s what doctors are doing when they put you on medication A and it doesn’t work, so they put you on medication B. Then that causes some adverse reactions so he or she puts you on medication C and that’s the one that treats your ailment with minimal sides, so your doctor keeps you on that. It’s experimentation; trial and error. A gram of test might work well for you, but for someone else, maybe the 500 mg test, 400 mg deca stack will in fact be better. When we’re talking about exogenous compounds, especially hormones, how we respond is profoundly individual. The need for some degree of experimentation—within reason—is unfortunately just the nature of the beast when it comes to AAS.
Hashtag1981I get absolutely no sides with test , I consider myself blessed.
Testosterone is natural to your body. I’ve never known anybody that truly fucked themselves up on it. Just so you controll your estrogen it’s the safest imo. As far as looking at this as medication few guys fall in that realm in these parts. Drs don’t script more than 200 mgs... I’m against a newbie useing anything other than test. Just my opinion.
RustyhookerIm digging on you thinking outside the box however thinking test is best isnt always so. Weve got guys in here running letro on a 500mg testosterone cycle. Letro is the end all of anti estrogens.
That being said it also destroys the test deca theory right off the top as well because its then estro and prolactin.
The guys needing letro need to keep test low and run non aromatising steroids. Or find a new sport imo.
Newbies using test only....completely behind that! And from personal low dose use, a small stack for the regular user is excellent. 300 test with var at tail end is very powerful if the user knows diet and gym.
Unfortunatly, most folks dont have what it takes to really get to their goals due to plain laziness.
Good point I’m not estrogen sensitive or gyno prone.
It’s natural to your body in normal physiological amounts, not supraphysiological. I likened it to a medication because, like medications, it’s an exogenous substance being put into your body. I agree with noobs starting out with only testosterone, don’t get me wrong.
Honestly your terminology is over my head. No disrespect. I went to work in a coal mine shortly after high school. I think education is a great thing. My wife went to college and I can’t argue with her either. Why lie...+ 1
No sir, your real world experience is much more valuable than my theory. I don’t argue, I converse. I just put things out there and allow members with much more time under the iron than me filter them through more exerienced eyes. Unfortunately, I know I can come across like a know-it-all sometimes, but I don’t intend to. I have a lot to learn and I know that.
When you can combine experience with education you really have something...I’ll be 54 this year so it’s safe to say my cycles involve feeling good and haveing libido as well as gains. My body is still improving but mainly from weak point training and diet. Three years ago I would have been raveling about Deca. I’ve had bad egfr readings three times while running Deca. Then the Kimbo Slice death. When I run test even in higher doses the only bad reading I’ve ever had is hematocrit. That’s the whole basis of my theory.
Thank you for mentioning that about eGFR. I’ve never associated nandrolone with being a potential kidney risk. I’ll have to look into that.
I was actually referred to a nephrologist and given a 24 hour urine Test. The Dr told me immediately it may have been false due to my muscle mass. All levels were in normal range. So maybe it was coincidental. Still two other times while running deca I’ve had high egfr. Never have on test. All three have been on prep for bench meets. I also cut my protein down from 400 to 250. Also I’m what you could call a long term user. I ran my first cycle in the early 80s. For me where I’m at Test is best.
He said test is only a "natural" hormone to the body at natty levels. Once you blast it it turns from a hormone to a drug.
I usually gotta translate Brooklyn's posts but I enjoy it. You're a great member and contributor to these forums with or without an oxford vocabulary brother.
I’m fluent in Apalachin American...lol Ty
Lol.... Me too Sam!!!
I think low dose cycles are great, the problem with your low dose cycles are you were more then likely at the high end of natural test levels. 125 a week of sust would be about 1100, test at 125 is roughly 1250. Low dose cycles would be more like 2500 tops so im not sure why you shut down your axis and replaced it with the same natural levels? Right idea, wrong approach as far as dosing. And length of time should be cut to 16 give or take or you might be setting yourself up for a lifetime of trt
Good common since...
A friend of mine is on TRT, the guy doesn't even train and his body has changed over time for the good, more muscle mass and leaner this is typically the case with most people on TRT
I saw this and thought i could cycle using an amount which would be at the top end or slightly higher than natural production, and guess what its worked for me.
It would be illogical for me not to try a cycle like this after seeing someone who does not even go to the gym, be given TRT and see a better change in his physique.
moreover for me the recovery phase post cycle has been so good whereas my previous cycles always messed me up post cycle,
I definitely understand where your coming from and to be honest with you your more than likely right but im just basing this on personal experience and thoughts, i am NO expert
That reminds me of the rat experiment where the group of rats that did zero exercise and took testosterone gained more muscle mass than the ones that exercised but didn't take drugs. Just being in your body that test is going to work.
Another thing to consider is that the anabolic:androgenic ratios were determined via studies with rodents. This is why the effects of certain steroids can’t be predicted by looking at the ratios alone. Drostanolone for example has a very low androgenic rating but behaves like a powerful androgen when administered.
Also, you mentioned in another thread about fascia stretching. It’s been proven that stretching limbs under load for long periods of time directly stimulates hypertrophy. However, this study was done on birds, not humans, where—and for the record I consider this highly unethical—masses were dangled from their wings and then they were immobilized for hours on end. The study revealed muscular hypertrophy after the masses were removed.
A lot of our knowledge on insulin response also comes primarily from rodent studies, so the whole “insulin spiking” concept needs to be taken with a grain of salt, as well as de novo lipogenesis. Mack is correct; these studies don’t always correlate with humans. Unless they do. There’s the rub.
Did you know rats used for human studies is a failure? Same as mice. Read these articles about the major reasons testing human interactions in rats and mice as well as other animals does not work.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2746847/
https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/3997568
https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2017/04/10/522775456/drugs-tha...
I can find a hundred more.
That's very interesting, I knew about calculating the doseage taking into account metabolic differences but I didn't think they were to be discounted altogether. Anecdotally it sounds like his buddy is proving that study however. Not training and still seeing body recomposition from only additional test.
Edit: I'm not telling ANYONE to just take drugs and not workout, just discussing the effects on the body. Want to make that clear.
You are correct, but his friend is not the tell all. We see some people who respond great to therapy, and those that dont. Read some of the studies of trt patients who were only given clomid and they had the same effects, muscle increase, fat loss, e.t.c. shit, they give anavar to cancer patients with muscle.loss and the same thing happens to them.
Dbl.post.
Its because your friend was not producing on his own. You cant base an experiment on a patient, it has to be done with a different test subject. The reason your gains came was because you said you watched what you ate and trained hard. You would have had the same results if you didnt low dose cycle. Here is an experiment for you, do the same thing except stay natty and see if you get the same results or maintain.
Then you can see if your experiment did work. Because trying something once does not mean it works, trying it twice does especially if the second time produces similiar or better.
ofcourse i know what your saying here but firstly as ive written in the main thread that i tried going natty and did so for 2 years
basically i used gear for a few years , then went natty for 2 years and now back on it but lower dosed.
the period of 2 years gear free i saw small gains but good gains and now with the addition of gear at low dosages ive seen a big difference...everyones got there own opinions but its nice to see everyone weighing in on this.
there's no 100 percent standardised right way to do this, each to their own
Agreed, bit your original statement does work, less is good and more is not always better. Im sure you see all the guys here making posts asking for help because they cant get a hard on or nips are growing, e.t.c and then they say they are taking a gram of test, half a gram of deca, a gram of eq. Less doses means less sides means better cycle.
RustyhookerGreat insight
natty 4 ever
RustyhookerI like your newer approach but think much can be done still with a 12 week plan.
Less sides, less chances typically for ai depending on bloods, costs less in gear as well. Simple eat and grow.
Oh definitely a lot can be achieved in 12 weeks, 100 percent,
in the new approach i took Ultimately the point im trying to make is everyone should be the Guru of their body , master it but protect it also for longevity.
different things work for us all
Of course I agree with minimum effective dose. This is speculation, but I’m 99% sure that Mike O’Hearn is a poster boy for this philosophy. The guy is a con artist scumbag, ethically speaking, who shills duck eggs online for outrageous prices, BUT, his training, his diet, his look, his performance, it all stays consistent year round. He doesn’t bloat, shrink, make massive gains, lose them. He’s extremely consistent and level and makes very modest but very lean gains year after year. That to me reveals someone who doesn’t go on huge blasts but rather takes a tempered approach with moderate doses and just keeps consistent. Clearly, it works. It works very well. It’s difficult to resist instant gratification and have patience, but being patient pays off big time, and your health will love you for it.
Patience is a virtue indeed! I agree with you Mike seems to have a stable physique all year round but his tempered small blast compared to mine would be ridiculous!
The funny thing is i was in contact with Mr Olympia from 1983
and the 20mg of anavar was his idea! He has been stressing that anavar 20mg should is more than enough and gives the best gains as long as its proper var though!