posted Sat, 06/10/2017 - 17:56
4675
Inj dbol question
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Since this inj version of dbol compared to the oral version is supposedly way less hepatotoxic is it safe to say you can run it longer than the preferred 4-8 weeks like with oral dbol?
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I say no for cycle imo.
Inject dbol is less toxic than the oral version, yes because it only has to survive one pass through liver whereas the oral goes through twice, it will still fuck your liver though.
Half life of drug is key, inject dbol is 7 hours, so thats 3 injections a day to keep levels rising, so unless its for pre work out yoloing annoying, very painful injections.
Preworkout method injections are 1 hour b4 training.
Ugl these days that brew it themselves i would not trust, i swear they just crush up the tabs and mix/ turn into liquid.
The pip is unbearable, its still highly toxic etc etc
No point when quality pharma grade orals are easy and cheap plus its easy to obtain awesome liver ancillaries cheaply also.
Fuck inj dbol.
I Disagree LOL
Agreed I didn't have a problem with the orals the inj just peaked my interest regarding the liver but too many cons weigh out the pros for me thanks but I've also decided to lay off aas for a while a dial in my diet for this coming fall for a epic fucking bulk this season once I fine tune it I will share it with the experienced users here and get yalls opinions. Cheers
You're not going to enjoy it with your body fat elevated and very little muscle on your frame. Cut down to 12% body fat and then build up to 200lb NATURALLY. Then run some dbol and you'll get some good benefits from it.
Thanks for the response. I'm past the natural phase in my training and the body fat was taken after my first dbol cycle (could have been water) my weight has also dipped a few pounds as well Since then I was 191 this morning I'll be doing a true stats check with a doctor prior and following my cycle I'm really not that fat I'll post pictures up as well
RustyhookerIts not much less hepatoxic.
Age: 29...Height: 5'11....Weight: 193....BF: 17%
Whats your goals and priors? You're not gonna enjoy dbol imo with those stats.
My last cycle was dbol 4 weeks deca test e 12 weeks the cycle before that was dbol 4 weeks and test e 10 and before that just test e for 10 weeks also tried sarms out specifically lgd 4033 which was either bunk or just wasent for me but didn't see much from it anyways this will be my 4th "cycle" so now I want to see if inj is any different from oral I'm not trying to fuck my liver up but I loved dbol with a passion for now I think it's going to be in every cycle I do until I try something new and fall in love all over again lol
Had to edit forgot the goals....
To see how much I can grow unfortunately my job is somewhat cardio dependent so I have to battle with that but I've found if I keep my caloric intake at about 3000 a day give or take I haven't had any problems so far but my run has significantly dropped since going "on" but I'm not to the point where I plan on stoping or figuring out a way to increase my cardio endurance and grow at the same time with proper diet and training (and gear) that's my goal lol most of my problems are my body getting use to the extra weight
As far as goals for this cycle...
Same as the last one I did just better diet and training going to do a log to show how much you can gain while improving on cardio I know I'm a heathen "blasphemy" they say lol just experimenting but now that I found out my "source" has inj I might hold off and try that with test just to see if I notice a difference or not first then add deca into the next one with the inj dbol if I like it. I'd like to try tren one day but I'm not ready to take the leap yet
RustyhookerAgain, whats your planned cycle?
The food gurus can dial you in.....something with food and gym needs work.
Macros? Gym plan?
He's been provided a thorough pre cycle macros that will work and help get him cleared for take off...Makwa can fine tune if he pops in...OP could be ready to roll by Fall for bulk, if that's his goal...
RustyhookerHe's planning in injection dbol 3x a day for 6 weeks
And looks like 50mg test prop eod.
That looks crazy to me. I pin ed but thats just nutty. Lol. Almost like, make a promo into a cycle
I told him just test e/c, ai, nolva and clomid...no fancy stuff. And, that the fall could be a target date to start based off achieving goals....no AAS right now...
Rustyhookerexcellent!
Damn I feel like I'm on the firing line it's all good tho
This is strange but stick with me
I'm getting 10ml of dbol 100mg/ml
10ml of test ph 100mg/ml
Oral arimdex
Oral clomid and toremifene from previous cycle
It's odd but the math goes like this
Week 1-6 inj dbol .7 ml 3x a day to come out to 21mg ed
Week 1-6 test ph .5 ml 50mg eod
Totals 147mg dbol per week
150 mg test ph per week
Reason for this is I'm just getting 10ml of each if I do it this way I will have 1 ml of ph prop left and 1.18 ml of dbol left not enough for another week
You will probably say those doses are low but with more bioavailability for the dbol being inject vs oral and knowing my body responded well to 30mg ed with the orals I feel good with those numbers
Running ai all 6 weeks arimdex .5 eod (rather safe than sorry)
Pct will be 4 weeks following last inj consisting of clomid and torem
All of this is just to see if I like inj dbol vs oral
Macros totals per day are roughly 182g protien, 360g carbs, 94g fats, give or take this is on a 3015cal meal plan give or take
Edit left out gym plan
I'm not going to break it down here I will in my log but long story short
Heavy Chest/tris Sunday
Heavy Legs Monday including a long run in the am
Heavy bis/back Tuesday
Off day in gym running 60/120s which is 60 second sprints 120 seconds walking Wednesday
Heavy shoulders Thursday
Legs Friday with 60/120s in the am
Rest on Saturday
There's a method to my madness
I'm missing something here. Are you saying half of a 50 mg shot of test prop every other day? Which would be 100mg a week? I don't like this either way, but I wouldn't shut myself down for that small amount of test. Maybe I'm reading this wrong
Edit If running prop why is pct 4 weeks after last shot?
Read wrong
This daily macros is no bueno, guey..lol..you need almost 300g of protein and since you're body fat is 17% (without a pic to confirm) you'd do real well with 200g's of complex carbohydrates per day, preferably carbs with a low glycemic index. Fats you could keep the same or increase 30g's.
Most importantly, is that you can achieve successful pre cycle results with in 3-4 months time using diet and exercise regimens to get there.
Latest research shows you need ~20g of protein non work out and ~40g protein around workout... only... to achieve optimal hypertrophy
(+/- slightly for heavier/lighter)
His macros are relatively close @ 180g protein
Let's say, perri-workout is leucine or bcaa's and some carbs, then presuming 1 pwo shake, and 2 post workout meals within the 3-4 hour pwo anabolic window =
340g
+ say 3 other daily meals @ 20g
3x20 + 340 = 140g protein (not including aminos but including whey)
or for heavier chaps
330 + 350 = 240g protein on workout days
Non-workout/Days off =
520 protein = 100g protein daily
or
530g protein = 150g protein daily
There is a big difference between what the status quo says and what the latest research says. The latest research is also in line with what has been shown with moderate protein diets such as Keto to be muscle-sparing. 20/40g is safe bet and sufficient here, but he needs to diet down before anything else judging by the pics/
Just sayin' !
And how much of this latest research was conducted on bodybuilders taking AAS? I would start looking like a crossfitter eating like that. Take advantage of the increased nutrient partitioning that AAS provides and and pack on the muscle while the anabolic environment is primed to do so. Just hobbling yourself by not eating enough protein. Bare minimum in my book is 1.5g/lb and bump that up to 2g/lb minimum with the super special nitrogen retaining compounds like primo.
Ok Mak, so I did a little research... sorry for the lengthy reply.
Short answer, the research most likely was not on AAS users, probable but not definitive. But, it is possible to mathematically support the new evidence based on an AAS user's annual muscle mass gains.
Long interesting answer!...However, you might find the following interesting when thinking about the subject in general:
On your point... Tipton 2001, simply states that testo increases muscle protein synthesis (MPS): Testosterone increases muscle protein synthesis and net muscle protein balance, resulting in increased muscle mass. But we know this of course, men are from mars etc. However, when females add additional testo and AAS, they can achieve male characteristics and increased muscle mass.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11706282
But same question stands, how much protein is needed?
In males... with a likely high level of natural testo, 20grams is enough to achieve maximal protein symthesis, tested 20g-40g moore et al 2009: 6 healthy resistance trained males, no ref to steroids; aged 20-24, 80-90kg in weight
http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/89/1/161.full
http://themusclephd.com/author/jwilson/page/3
Moore et al go on to state in 2015 that 25g in young men is enough needed to maximally stimulate MPS, and 29g in older men (age matters, but not that much): https://academic.oup.com/biomedgerontology/article/70/1/57/2947642/Prote...
Witard 2014 says 20g is enough: " A 20-g dose of whey protein is sufficient for the maximal stimulation of postabsorptive rates of myofibrillar MPS in rested and exercised muscle of ~80-kg resistance-trained, young men. "
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24257722
" * 3-4 evenly distributed daily meals containing at least 30 grams of a high quality protein. Within these boundaries, it probably doesn’t matter how you allocate the rest of your protein consumption on a per-meal basis – just make sure you take in close to a gram per pound of body weight per day.* "
Quote from Brad Schoenfeld, source: http://www.lookgreatnaked.com/blog/is-there-a-limit-to-how-much-protein-...
430 plus what say; 230 = 180g per day - again in line with new research
Rate of absorbtion and type of protein matters too matters too: Casein versus Whey, perhaps unsurprisingly, Casein showed better long term benefits whereas whey shows better initial benefits.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3905294/
Implications here are huge in my opinion, with regard to the real complexity around optimally timing protein delivery and subsequent aminos delivery to muscles. Yes nitro balance matters, and yes we can simplify by saying fastest acting am and pwo, with meats fish etc, rest of day and perhaps a slow at bedtime, but still, the reality is interesting. There are loads of studies out there showing types of proteins matter too. eggs vs whey, meats vs plant etc.
Gender also matters and women are at a disadvantage re: MPS: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11706282
Age matters as already said, but so does protein balance (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2129150 ) seemingly as much as protein synthesis, and this ties with the whole fast whey versus slow casein thing - makes sense).
But!........ (Natural) Layne Norton does the maths to show you amount of aminos derived from protein needed to build muscle (and the actual amount of muscle in muscle rather than water etc. - 33%), the maths highlight a difference between bodyweight based on the amount of average muscle a bodybuilder might gain in a year. Interesting as he goes for the greatest gains but the numbers remain low:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQEXQFrBUy0
I think the numbers are relatively solid here, but 100% open to discussion as this is not my forté. I also think if you manage 40lbs in 1 year you are doing fkn phenomenal work and even that is likely an over estimation.
So, if we know all of the factors that matter in general; it is clear that size and weight matter, as do age and source of protein, timing etc. However, in the absense of dedicated studies, then arguably logically, it is a reasonable hypothesis to look towards total gains made in 1 year by an AAS user, factor the amount of protein needed to deliver the amount of aminos needed to help build actual muscle achieved by a bodybuilder in a year and to also work back in terms of bodyweight for variables, and upwards to plan needed protein to achieve a specific result.
Even in a best case AAS user, the amount is still astonishingly low and bucks conventional wisdom. That said, real clinical case study research is needed it appears. Working backwards makes sense and supports the newer research.
I am definitely sticking with my opinion, 30-50g is safe, particularly for a chap like this at his current weight and I think it is pretty clear that the evidence and sure yes, supposition, absolutely supports that view.
Very good information and one can also look at the Mentzer brothers Mike and Ray or Casy Viator and the Arthur Jones experiment.Acording to Mike Mentzer, protien intake was not extremely elevated.They consumed only .75 g per pound of LBM.Now I'm not asserting that is optimal but interesting.Mentzer believed the body could only absorbe 20 grams of protein in about two to three hours.That would make his intake much lower than the modern body builder,but also much lower than most modern fitness athletes,like Michael Phelps, who regularly consumes 10,000 calories a day.Of course when Mentzer wrote for muscle media he asserted something completely different and supporting somewhere around 1.5 per pound of LBM.Your info was interesting ... Good job!
Yep thats it, nail on head
That's why its important to challenge the status quo.
But there are researchers without ethics that are paid to lie too, I guess, it's rampant in some quarters, particularly those with big business/pharma/medtec/life sciences connections.
I can tell you anecdotally,
Almost every single cycle I have done has yielded the same weight increases - regardless of what compounds I have used, it never seems to make a difference,so I now choose based on sides/duration to steady state etc.
I have achieved the same result above on both high carb high protein low fat, but also high fat, moderate protein moderate carbs (20g p per sitting max, carbs only around workout) and then the more traditional methods. It's always the same. But again this is anecdotal and subjective but not quantifiable/provable.
My main method now is a combo really, of moderate protein at rest to high proitein pre/perri/post workout. I still need to manage my insulin sensitivy though, so I use a hybrid cyclical bulking / pre/intra/post-cycle cut approach with longer cycles. This is new this year and working so far but going forward I plan to leverage gh or igf1 derived/like products and peptides to maximise on cycle fat loss and retain as much muscle post cycle.
Things keep evolving for me, based on knowledge gained through research and testing.
I basically practice the same thing and for the same reason.I try to control insulin when cutting and not so much when bulking.For the most part my protein remains the same.It does increase as percentage of calories though.When cutting I usually cut out the energy food,carbs first then fats,while reducing calories all together.My gear will change as well.I have never used GH but will add it to the mix next cycle.
Yep...24/7 365...
Amen
Good question.
I am refering Dr. Jacob Wilson who does study AAS users and high performance athletes rather than the average joe, but he may have been referencing someone else's studies. It is distinctly possible you're right in what you are pointing to, and if so I would be surprise at Wilson putting that out there considering his customer base and fan base. But that's speculation, so let me dig up the studies he himself referenced
Who also likes to sell his products just sayin. Like the guy tho.
Well he never tried to sell me anything! Actually no he did something with Ben Pakulski once iirc on Phosphatidic acid, but that was Ben's gig, although I am sure JW was getting a few dollars for it! But yes I guess every single person alive on the planet that is in employment is selling something!...... just sayin!
Seriously though, this is why I like him; and do not take my word for it have a look yourself at his actual research to see this, you can access a hell of a lot of it easily online - the full versions that is not just abstracts.....
His lit reviews are exceptional
His research designs are very robust and he is extremely honest with regard to design limitations
He has one of the most thorough case study approaches you will see leveraging exceptional technology
He also does some research where he challenges the status quo derived from past studies, equating to somewhat of a longitudinal approach but which leverages new data/technologies
His research is extremely robust, and sure yes, everything should be questioned by us, the end user, but hey evidence is evidence
And how has all of this you posted been working for you?
You have a pic you wanna post?
Working good actually. I stay on the safe side, so a little bit more than needed. Definitely most noticable when doing keto rather than bulking (harder to judge what's what when bulking if you're not regular with the calipers and event at that...)
My last bulker, a long one, saw me + 11kgs total, couple kgs of fat, so am shredding some of that as we speak
In terms of muscle retention, I use calipers to measure fat, rather than anything too advanced, but I consistently burn fat and boost LBM when on keto and generally always eat 20kgs protein per meals and always 7 meals per day, I tend to adjust on keto though to a more fat adaption method, so i eat plenty of carbies around workouts so there will be an effect there on muscle size that i can't really judge/quantify
When bulking though, I eat 40KG pre, 40KG perri, and 50KG post, usually 30kg every other meal.
I will try get a pic up, but am covered in tats so will see what body parts aren't identifiable! perhaps a calf here, inside bicep there!
Yea I like calipers and food too..eating is the hardest part! If it's not done correctly, it's so easy to see your gains just pissed away...:)
Totally man, it's insane how easily it can happen
(rebound effect rebound effect rebound effect, crosses fingers!!!)
not 17% I will change that not sure what it is now that's what it was after my first dbol cycle haven't check since and I weighed 191 this morning I'll put a picture up on my profile real quick so more protien less carbs I can do that add me as a friend I will pm you my meal plan and you can critique it if your willing. Thanks
You could carb cycle and keep your high cut off level at 300g to parallel your protein intake then keep a low base at 150-200g, increasing for energy and growth to get a feel of what your body needs and how it respond to a variety of wholesome foods...need.to know BF% (true), bodytype, and blood tyoe..
Believe I'm an ectopicmorph blood type is a + I'll get body fat tonight
You don't need any dbol for real...not right now...that's too much on the body for you, and for anybody thats helping you...no lie
Alright can you explain why so I know for future knowledge I'll hold off
Higher BF% and fast aromatizing AAS actually produce more body fat, via estrogen conversion, meaning you don't have enough muscle to burn fat to keep up with the release of high level of estrogen vs the positive nitrogen balance that you think you're in...power lifters and water Polo people are two types of individuals who benefit athletically.from higher BF%...ripping the muscle up with an extensive 4-5 day per week workout regimen, cardio 1-2 times per week for 15-20 min, and a cal/mac plan that's been noted in your forum is the only way for you to successfully reach your goals, prior to cycling, or using aas.
Could he use a AI to mitigate the conversion?In you opinion would adrol be a better option than dbol?
At this point in time, from the looks of his pic, his diet and exercise regimen are the most important. When he gets these two factors balanced, along with a single compound long ester involved, which is months down the road, then and only then could I answer whether, or not, oral aas would be beneficial.
Higher fat also = high aromatase enzyme
it's a cycle of aromatising and getting fat
horrific
Duh!! That's what I just said, except better...and in more complete sentences...lol...
Duh! I must have completely missed where you made any reference to aromatase enzyme contents of fat!
Silly me!
My apologies....YOUR ARROGANT TONE HAS SPARKED MY ATTENTION...Aromatase enzyme of fats...please explain where I didn't..and include any further details!! We encourage teaching around here, preferably in an open forum, if there's something you'd like to share that could enlighten us about aromatase enzyme of fats...please do...I'm sure, once you're given the opportunity to do it, maybe you'll feel compelled to do it better...and not so haphazardly...forming complete sentences and at the least making some sense...please...let's see your keyboard warrior ways...
I'm all ears...
Rustyhooker'Damn I feel like I'm on the firing line '
Firing line or quizzed so you're at the top of the class. Only reason to be on firing line is when you're being dishonest.
I dont like your approach on the test or dbol. It looks rookie and not researched. It looks like guesswork on a dime budget.
Your food bill should be near 100 per week just for yourself or you're farting in the wind.
The method is bubblegum and b.s. Low dosed is one thing. To try and b.s. a skilled user is hubbub.
So what exactly is wrong with it? I literally just testing the dbol to see how it responds to my body compared to the oral I've used in past cycles... I would run test longer but what's the point hence the reason I'm sing prop instead of e. It's not bs and I'm def not trying to bs someone who's probably been doing this since before I even considered use. But these are my facts all I know is my experience and how my body has reacted with what I have used
What's your body type and what is your blood type? Knowing both of these factors will help you meet your goals via a revised cal/mac plan and your lifting regimens.
Forget about all anabolics, you've got other things to think about...cart before horse...
Are you taking any other medications?
I'm a hard gainer but I retain water easily. Why is blood type important? No other medications other than medicinal marijuana for my ptsd.
Query diet and food choices based on blood type...compare and contrast what foods you eat vs.what foods are recommended...thanks for being honest.
You could be ectomorph, endomorph, mesomorph or a mix...I think you're a mix based off what you've said about your metabolism and your current BF%.
If you're a hard gainer then we'll find out and soon via diet modification...
I don't think you eat correctly...
Probably right that's why I'm here how do I post pics
Blue arrow up top...community. ..pictures self shot