+ 81 Causes and Solutions to PIP problems
I figured i'd share this information that helped me get through the extreme pip i had with some over concentrated gear. I constantly see posts and questions about dealing with this, so heres the information that helped me.
What causes (non infection related) injection pain?
first the shorter the ester, the higher the melting point
secind, the concentration of the gear.
third, the solvents used.
fourth, injecting too quickly
fifth, virgin muscle.
Pain is caused when the oil/solvents are absorbed by the body and crystals are left behind.
Short esters (propionate or acetate) are harder, more painful crystals with melting points in the 100c range.
A hormone with a longer esters (excluding cypionate - cyp is long but also high melting point) can have a melting point in the 20c-40c range. not far off from human body temp.
Pain is also caused by concentration of your gear.
Building off of point 1: Let's say it takes the body 24 hours to absorb 1mL of a certain oil/solvent blend, and 24 hours to absorb 50mg of Testosterone Propionate. If 50mg (or less) of testosterone propionate is in 1mL of that oil, this injection should be painless. On the other hand, if 100mg of testosterone propionate is in that same 1mL of solution, then after 24 hours the body will have absorbed 50mg and 1mL, leaving 50mg behind in the injection area, crystalized and painful.
Its better to shoot 3mL of 50mg/mL Testosterone Propionate than 1mL of 150mg/mL Testosterone Propionate.
This is also why water based suspensions (Testosterone base/no ester, Winstrol ) hurt the most, water is very easily absorbed in the body
The solvents used can cause pain in 2 ways. Benzyl alcohol (BA) is used at 1%-2% as a preservative and antiseptic. If the alcohol content is too high the gear will burn. Pain in the first 24 hours is usually caused by heavy solvents, pain in the next few hours is usually cause by crystalization. Another way is a bad recipe. if someone used 2% BA, and the rest of the solution oil, the mg/mL would have to be low due to oil's weak ability to hold crystals. On the other hand, a recipe like 2% BA, 5% Guaiacol (super solvent), 10% Benzyl Salicylate (liquid asprin) with the filler split 50:50 between Ethyl Oleate (oil/solvent hybrid) and normal oil should be far less painful.
If you inject too quickly it can tear tissue.
If your muscle is new to the hormone, it will absorb the hormone very slowly, but absorb the oil/solvent very quickly. This will cause more crystalization and pain. As your muscles recognize the hormones, they will be absorbed more quickly, thus less pain. The deeper you inject into the center of a muscle group, the better.
How do I prevent pain before I inject?
Cut your shots 50:50 with sterile filtered oil. If you want to use 50mg of Testosterone Propionate, and you have 100mg/mL Testosterone Propionate- pull 0.5mL of your test prop, and 0.5mL of sterile filtered oil to shoot 1mL of 50mg/mL Testosterone Propionate. This is the #1 best way.
Dont bother with b-12, its water based- absorbed so quickly it will have little to no impact.
Before you shoot, it can help to warm your gear some (especially suspensions). You could put the vial in the bathroom sink and let hot water run over the vial for 2 minutes, and shake well. This will lower the oils viscosity also making it easier it pull into the syringe.
Inject slowly, take 30 seconds per mL. Use a 25g pin to inject so it forces you to move slowly.
If none of these work you could have dirty gear. Its possible there could be particles (although bacteriostatic) in the gear that are not causing infection, but still cause in site infection that made it through a filter.
How do I deal with pain once I have it?
The worst thing you can do is ice it. Cold will help the crystals fall out of solution/suspension.
Its okay to take some ibuprofin to decrease the swelling, and help with pain.
Also being in a hot tub, or jacuzzi, or warm bubble bath will help melt the crystals down. Using a heating pad can help also.
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I'll say it once again.... virgin muscle is a myth.
Been pinning for over 15yrs and sometimes I will still get as much if not more pain than when I first started when I was 23yrs old.
The only changes that happen to your muscles over time and pinning are more scar tissue build up... which will only make pinning more difficult, and reduce absorption rates.
Its all in exactly where you pin (close to nerves), and how you do it (pin size, injection speed, etc), and the compound you are using.
As I've said before... I've had shots from the same bottle that are almost pain free one week, to being very sore and tight only a week or 2 later.
There are many factors, but "virgin muscle" is total BS in my opinion.
good post man
a couple things i do that seem to help is use 25 gauge pin and inject slow,also rubbing down the injection site after injecting really rub it in seems to help reduce soreness
the strange thing i came across was less pain from prop and even suspension then some test cyp
i gotta agree with the virgin muscle theory any time i had pip was a first time using that site
applying heat to the site when theres pain in the days after the inject seem to help
worst pip of all time was when i used eq2 a fast ester eq shit felt like A i got shot in the ass, no joke ,i also felt flu like sysmptoms couple days after i only used half cc mixed with test eth that i knew was painless because i was warned ,i had 2 friends with the same experience its no wonder that its not around anymore
i threw my 9 cc in the shitter
i think its hit or miss when it comes to this iv had had human grade test hurt and had some of the smoothest gear be ug
Ethyl Oleate can defenitly be a problem, i went from virgin muscle with 1 quad shot in each leg the 1st week using gear w/o EO and the pain was as expected from "virgin muscle" and little to no pip afterwards on the following shots, and it was quite pleasing. About 5 weeks in now i decided to try another sources juice with EO... it left me with red spots clearly where the pin was injected, tried different injection spots...
ect.ect..fact is it leaves me with a kick in the leg,ass or delt with pinning. Back to basics, no EO for me.
On a side note EO has not been approved in the US as part of an IM injections, and i think being that EO might be ok for dissovling higher MG compounds for fast compounds like Prop. I feal that with EO in the mix of Ethanate the EO being so thin, the body absorbs it so quick leaving the hormones behind. Yup my experminent was with Ethanate
nice write up, here's an article on basskiller that talks about it too. honestly i think a lot of it just depends on the carrier and the concentration. i've used 350mg/ml test e before, just your basic 2% BA/20% BB safflower carrier and it almost always gives me some amount of pip regardless of prep. npp 100 though, no pip whatsoever. i would say if you're going that high concentration, some EO is probably a good idea. one way to identify it is to see if pip is immediate/within a few hours or within a few days. if it's immediate you're probably having a reaction to the BA or EO (if it has eo), but if it takes a few days then it's usually a safe bet it's crashing and crystallizing.
another thing i've noticed is injection technique is very important. if your hand is shaking and moving around a lot the needle is no doubt tearing up your muscle inside. back when i sucked at injecting, this is what would cause the most pip and redness and hardness in the area.
oh, here's the article: http://www.basskilleronline.com/steroidsolventguide.shtml
edit another thing that i've noticed helps is instead of using just sterile oil, if you're already doing a stack, mixing both in the same syringe can help "water it down" so to speak. back when i was using AMG sust, i'd mix it with his npp (1 cc of each) and it would cut down on the pip. but i suppose if you're stacking you're probably going to do that anyways when possible to minimize amount of injections
you can also get a bottle of injectable b12 and "cut" your inject w/ some of that to dissipate the soreness.
Common cause of pip is the crystallization of the steroid after the oil is absorbed. It irritates the muscle. So whatever you can do to disperse the inject will help a bit.
timcinkcgreat info thanks!!!
A lot of the pain I would say is because it's a virgin muscle, but over time your muscles will get used to it, just try not to lye on the area you injected for a day or two if you can help it.
All my 6 main inject sites, glutes, thighs and delts havent been virgin for 10 years. I still do heat my Test up and usually get no PIP at all from Cyp or Enan. Sometimes Prop will give me a little discomfort for a day or so but nothing like a newbie muscle. I know it can be tough and painful guys but just try it a few times and it should get better with time. I usually heat my oil up till the viscosity signifcantly gets thinner put a heating pad for 5 mins on the muscle im going to inject and then rub the inject spot for a good couple of mins after shot. Sometimes I takea nice hot shower afterwards with hot water pressurized on the inject spot for a few mins and I have no probs whatsoever.
Massaging the area you just injected COULD (not always) lead to more irritation caused by small muscle tears.
+1
I always pin, pull out quick, apply pressure, then leave it alone. Rubbing never helped.
I mean alot of guys do different things, but for the most part it could cause tearing.
Any area you Inject in frequently will have some scar tissue build up. But rubbing the area leads it to build up far quicker.. I know everyone has there own ways of doing things but its just a habit I would avoid... Also I personally shower pre injection..
I'm not talking abut scar tissue. Yes the constant inj. Into one muscle will eventually build scar tissue. I was talking about creating small tears in your muscle that causes irritation (PIP) if you massage it afterwords.
I was agreeing with you.... I was adding on to the subject you were speaking about. Added scar tissue not only adds to (PIP) but eventually it will be difficult to inject in that muscle ... The small tears you were speaking of is what builds the scar tissue
Great post
Had a batch of test E from a local guy that paralyzed me (literally) for a day after the first shot. Warmed it up and the second was much smoother
I gotta say, I believe "virgin muscle" to be a complete myth. I've been pinning for over 15yrs and I still sometimes get very bad pip and it wasn't any worse when I 1st started.
There are many factors, but I do believe virgin muscle is an urban legend.
I've had painless injects... then a wk later have unbelievable pain from the same amount from the same bottle. If I get too close to a nerve while injecting, I know that I'm going to have really bad pain the following few days.
BA and BB concentrations def contribute to more pip. I've had bunk bottles, that were straight oil (no solvents) and they were completely and totally painless... not even a tightness or feeling of where I injected.
solid post.
Buildbigger86Great post! Very detailed and insightful information documented. 1 thumbs up from me
Very good info. makes since now my first cycle of prop, injections were killer pip. now my gluts are lovin it... no homo
I agree with all the solutions posted above...
I would like to add that if you are new to higher mg oils, for example switching From testE 300 to 500. Pin much less, me and some friends have found that those higher mg oils can cause severe pip. Personally I stick to lower mg because I have few issues with it. Pip can seriously hinder gains if you can't train properly (squat, press, ect.).
JakeSSry for being a noob, but how do I sterilize oil? I have grape seed oil, do I bake it? Whats the temp and how long?
You have to buy it. Google sterilized grape seed oil. Don't use any oil you buy from the supermarket or any other place unless it specifically says it is sterilized.
Nice read....I'm having some pip right now on some test e but one more week and I should be fine.....didn't know about a hot bath helping, thanks for the info brother.
good read +1
Hey guys. I'm suffering from pip at the moment.. first test e cycle and my first two shots, one in each glute. I find this info very helpful and thinking of diluting the oil for next injections. What kind of oil should I get and where would be a good place to order it? Thanks in advance
I found that taking a hot shower and relaxing really helped me alot on my first cycle. Massaging right after and through out the day. U have to remind urself it is first time pinning. Pip is gonna b there.
Massaging rite after you inject could push the oil around causen muscle fibres to tear even more and maken the pip more painfull.i think baths are the way to go after a pip great way to relax and let the juices flow lol showers are great to.
So after u inject should u wait an hour or so to massage. Instead of right after? Showers...lol. I ment pinning right after a shower or bath. Bc it just seems like ur not as tense and ur clean. Hahahaha lmao
You could but i think it would do more damage than good nice bath or shower should realy help that shit get moving.And if you use alcohol wipes or gel before you pin all should be more than clean i use that shit on the full arse cheek i am jabbing haha better to be safe than sorry..
Massaging is just not a good practice after pinning IMHO
I personally prefer safflower oil(filtered)
MY first few pins of test e felt like I had been kicked by a mule in the leg. By the third week pip was gone and I can now pin legs and work them out the next day. Stick with it for a couple more weeks and you should be fine.
IMHO this is your first cycle bud, you will more than likely get used the the test E. Your muscles are virgins so they are not used to the oil. Give it a couple weeks and I bet it will not even bother you anymore. Just my two cents tho.
Well the pain is still here and i don't see it going away. I have to pin tomorrow as well.. do I pin where it hurts? I'm using 23gauge
Obama BlowsPersonally, I heat the oil by holding it under hot running water for awhile. I also use an ice pack to completely numb the injection site prior to injecting and then i hold it on for another 5 mins or so after i inject. Seemed to eliminate most of the PIP.
Some people handle pip differently my friend, for myself E wasn't bad. I honestly believe your body will get used to the E. As for the pinning, where do ou pin and do you rotate the sites?
I did glutes only. I did one side then the other... so I do one glute once a week. Just surprised the pain is still there and I did the shot last Monday
This is your 1st cycle man, your muscles are not used to holding the oil, you've only had 2 inj. so give it more time man, after while it will subside but its your choice if you want to add some cotton seed or grape seed oil. Honestly (no offense) but you just need to man up and get used to it.
Thanks man, no offense taken. I don't mind the pain. It just that it makes my days at work much harder. I noticed my second shot wasn't as painful because I inserted the needle deeper and did the heating pad right after. If the pain is still there, I'm gonna do the injection anyways.
Yeah man your body will get used to it, turst me.
You were right bro. Today is Tuesday ,pinned 1ml of bigds test e yesterday. Didn't do any heating pads or hot baths on purpose to see how its gonna turn out. I did warm the oil though because its a bitch to get it out of the amp otherwise. As of now,no pip whatsoever. Hopefully it stays this way. Be prepared for strong pain lasting a week if its your first time pinning
BOOM.... ;)
Using a real hot heating pad helps me with heavy solvent pip. i think i had the crystalization pip a couple times. then shortly after the whole area swells. going back and forth from a heating pad to soft massage to the area seems to help pip a lot for me.
Dude this is great my butt loves you lmao no homo. I like to mix mine with a little deca
The best thing I've done is pull the gear in the barrel take a hair dryer and heat it for say 1 minute (about 6" away) and shake, also I push a drop or two out on the top of my hand like you would do baby's milk in a bottle when you warm it. Make sure it's not scalding hot.. Inject slowly. Keep a steady hand to cause less trAma in the insertion point. Then get a warm rag and rub the area afther you pull the pin out. Also I turn my pin upwards and push a drop out and let it slide down the pin to lubercate it lol. Heating pad and ibeprofin works great ;)
I do this exact same thing... minus the rubbing... I always thought that rubbing or massaging the injection site was a bad idea?
Rubbing the injection site right after pinning can cause scar tissue to build up.
Thats what I thought as well.. And I always shower pre inject, Maybe thats just me but I dont suffer from much pip so I will stick with what I know
Virgin muscle, how about that. I was wondering why I have a golf ball in each butt cheek.
thx for the god tips hopefully will save me from having to sit in a doughnut hahah