jakedasnake's picture
jakedasnake
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SHBG

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I'm sorry if this is the wrong place to post this but I assumed that there is a lot more experience in this section regarding hormone levels from all of the blood work involved with TRT.

I was interested in knowing if lowering your SHBG 5 nmol/L would free up enough testosterone to make a difference during a cycle.

Makwa's picture
jakedasnake's picture

I was just informed of adding proviron into a cycle to lower SHBG the other day. The thing is though is my cycle is en route to me right now. I was researching for an alternative that I could buy over the counter and came across something interesting.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9876338

The results after six months of 100 mg dose of DHEA lowered SHBG on average 5 nmol/L in men. I have no idea how big of a difference that is. I had a hard time finding how much Proviron would lower SHBG with someone who is not on cycle so I could compare it to this studys participants who were obviously not taking AAS. Another interesting thing though is that it also raised serum IGF 1 levels 16 nmol/L in men. Also I don't know if that is a big difference or not.

Makwa's picture

Get some provi and start it when it comes. You don't need to start it the same day you start cycle. Many people start it midway through cycle to get an extra boost when things seem like they are starting to plateau.

jakedasnake's picture

Good call.....Ill probably end up doing that as long as my finances are in order. Just for the hell of it though do you have any idea on how significantly Provi lowers shbg? Just wondering so I can compare it to the DHEA.

Makwa's picture

I have no idea, but if you are really interested in it I would get a blood test right before you start the provi and another a few weeks after you have been taking it. Then you will see exactly how much it increased your free test and how much your SHBG was lowered.

humpnpump's picture

Tonkat ali extract
http://supermanherbs.com/tongkat-ali-part-2-testosterone/
I use it and know a cheap reliable source if you need to shot me a pm.

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jakedasnake's picture

Fromlhttp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3669033/#!po=21.6667

Animal studies have shown that many of the effects of the extract are mediated by its glycoprotein components [14]. The mechanism of action of the bioactive complex polypeptides (“eurypeptides” with 36 amino acids) has been shown to activate the CYP17 enzyme (17 alpha-hydroxylase and 17,20 lyase) to enhance the metabolism of pregnenolone and progesterone to yield more DHEA (dehydroepiandrosterone) and androstenedione, respectively

It looks like it just raises DHEA

humpnpump's picture

Read the link I provided ^^^. Free and bound testosterone increased by 70% in 3 weeks and Shbg decreased by 66%

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jakedasnake's picture

I tend not to believe a websites research and reviews of its own products lol. But if you read the non biased opinion of NCBI it shows that the mechanism of action of tongkat ali is in raising dhea and androstenedione. So im thinking it would be easier and possibly cheaper to just supplement with DHEA and cut out the middle man. If someone can answer my original question I would appreciate it.

humpnpump's picture

Ok I see your point. Maybe experiment for yourself. I don't feel much of anything when i use DHEA but I know it helps, on the other hand I can definitely tell rise in libido when taking tonkat ali, but that's not to say it's actually decreasing SHBG.

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jakedasnake's picture

I'm wondering if the androstenedione that the article says is raised as well has anything to do with the higher T levels. I'm looking into it more but it actually sounds very promising.

humpnpump's picture

Let us know if you find anything, always wanting to learn something new and turn it into an advantage.

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jakedasnake's picture

Animal studies have shown that many of the effects of the extract are mediated by its glycoprotein components [14]. The mechanism of action of the bioactive complex polypeptides (“eurypeptides” with 36 amino acids) has been shown to activate the CYP17 enzyme (17 alpha-hydroxylase and 17,20 lyase) to enhance the metabolism of pregnenolone and progesterone to yield more DHEA (dehydroepiandrosterone) and androstenedione, respectively

Ok in the above paragraph it talks about Tongkat activating the CYP17 enzyme (17 alpha blah blah blah) ok now look at this chart. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steroid_hormone#/media/File:Steroidogenesi...
the 17 alph-hydroxylase is an enzyme that converts progesterone and pregnenolone to their 17 a hydroxyl counterparts. Then 17,20 lyase converts those two to DHEA and androstenedione. So that explains why DHEA and androstenedione are raised. But I guess that high levels of androstenedione can actually be a bad thing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4-Androstenedione

In addition to its role as a precursor to testosterone in the body, Δ4-dione (androstenedione) has slight androgenic properties in its own right, acting as a weak partial agonist of the androgen receptor.[13][non-primary source needed][better source needed] However, in the presence of full agonists like testosterone or dihydrotestosterone (DHT), due to its lower intrinsic activity in comparison, it has antagonistic effects, and can behave more like an anti androgen.

So androstenedione can bind to AR or androgen receptors but it is weak partial agonist. So if lots of test (a full agonist) is present this bullshit androstenedione is taking up fucking space at the receptor so test can not bind.

Im guessing that off cycle it would be very beneficial for test levels but while on cycle, with tons of exogenous testosterone, that it would hinder gains.

humpnpump's picture

Makes a lot of since if it's filling up receptors space. I only use it off cycle and during pct. I use proviron on cycle always. Good research, you are going to come in handy around here.

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