Another question re TRT and being over 40
First off, I would like to apologize to some of you out there as I know I have posted a similar question re low testosterone in the past via another forum, but as you can see I'm still searching around for advice and hopefully answers?
I do note there has been a similar question(s) re over 40 & TRT. But thought I would be hijacking those particular threads so hence me creating this one.
I’m from the U.K, 45yrs of age and I have recently had my test levels done. They came back at 11.3 nmol/L. This is obviously being a U.K reading but when converted to U.S.A it is approx around 325ng/dl. I have read this is hormonal hell; however my doctor states I'm in the normal range (7-29nmol/L).
I have taken cycles in the past, my last one being 15yrs ago, and I always remember that my life all of a sudden became worth living! And, I mean worth living!! Top of the world feeling and more…Mr. Confident!!
I'm on Prozac (on/off for 10yrs) as I suffer from depression, I have tried to explain to my doc that if I had more testosterone I'm certain that I would no longer suffer from the doom and gloom that I experience every day? But he just ignores my opinions and continues to dish out my little helpers - Prozac.
If I was to start self medicating at 45yrs, and by doing so, shut down my own testosterone, then I'm sure the doctor will have a ‘duty’ to prescribe testosterone injections? Now, I'm coming from a U.K point of view here. So I guess this gets a little difficult for my American friends re our countries having a different health care support system.
The bottom line is - I would like to feel better (a LOT better) in myself, and I’m certain after doing lots of research on TRT and up to now has been very positive, this could just be the ticket what the doctor ordered? Or not in my case!
- What test would be good/best/safe to use?
- How long and often would I run a cycle?
- Does it have to be a test? Or could I use another substance? If so, which ones?
- Would I still run a PCT?
Anything else you can advise would be of great value to me in this matter.
Many thanks for your support and time.
Dazzamma
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Well if the Doc won't help you, then it looks like you've done the right thing and taken your health into your own hands. Unfortunately what Dawg and Grrrrrrl say just below seem to be the norm. All I can say is good for and keep everyone updated don't be afraid to ask around that's what this place is for. Been helped to many times to mention. Good Luck
Thanks gsleepy..Really looking forward to my cycle and will keep all posted come the new year!
Daz
keep us posted on when you start and how you are doing' I have a good felling you are going to come out of the funk and into the daylight as I did - I am excited for you man. Good luck and post up when you begin!
Hello friend, Thanks! I will defo keep you all posted..Again thanks for the positive comment
Daz
Mental and physical depression is often caused by hormone imbalance or insufficiency. The doctors get most of their perks from the drug companies that manufacture anti-depressants, so that is where they will steer you. I had disabling depression for 15 years, and had been prescribed every new anti-depressant and anti-psychotic that came out. Some made me feel better for a little while. I started TRT 5 years ago. Immediately felt like a different person and haven't felt the need to make the drug companies any richer since then.
Try 150mg/wk of test-e or test-c with out anything else for 6-8 weeks. See how you feel. If you feel better by then, your natural test levels will be depressed enough to get a prescription, and my recommendation is to use legit pharma grade T for TRT (cruising) and add in the UGL stuff for cycles (blasting).
Cool read dawgfase and thanks for your input and advice...Very much appreciated!
Daz
AnonWhat you also don't know is that the studies published are altered and if they studies show no benefits or detriments they are very often shit canned. Unfortunately independent studies are the exception rather than the rule.. Taking anti depressants for simple depression actually prolongs the depressive episode and increases the frequency of depressive episodes. Most depression can be treated without pharmacology.
Nice one and cool comment. Depression is a broad and complex topic. We can can go on and say Depression (mood) or to a further extreme say major depressive disorder (MDD). What do you mean by simple depression? I wish it was actually that simple hrdbdygrrrrrrl. Don't get me wrong, I love your positive attitude and it was great to read! I would LOVE to be OFF the f**cking little helpers. I have again attempted to come off, but the feelings and (now) experience that follow are sureal...Hope that makes sense? I cannot socialise without them, and I hate myself even more because of that. Relying on a pill to get you through your day and make you so called 'normal' is a misery in it's self. I often wonder how the f*ck ended up like this? I do have some dissapointments in life, but we all do...I think?
You are 100% correct re treatment without pharmacology. I just think it depends on the severity, condition and the mental health your living.
Anyway, just to let you and all the others know I have decided to add Test E to the Deca I have. Any advice will be greatly and kindly received. I will only commence in approx 4 weeks. I now have Deca, sus 250 test e and rip225....and my chemical friends will only get bigger. 15yrs off the juice and can't wait to start again.
Daz
Anonwell think of it like this there are various depressed states one can be in.. it moves on a continuum.. ALL people experience depression to some degree.
As far as neurological basis goes using a diathesis(structural aspecet)- stress model you can have several modes of activation. you can start with an altered enzyme and monoamine degredation or altered synaptic nerve plasticity.. (structural issues) one leads to a altered development in the prefrontal cortex and the other expresses itself in a biological phenotype. (I m gonna skip some steps her for brevity sake) but both result in behavioral symptomatology. So you have a bunch or a few synaptic biases.. that by themselves depending on the amount don't really express themselves...(think of a car that is six cylinders running on 5-you don't really notice) but then you add stress from the environment. the diathesis -stress combine to make weak circuits at many points and this is where you see symptomatology. or depressive symptoms in your case.
We don't really know why ssri's work but there are several things that we do know about the interactions between serotonin, dopamine, norepinepherine, cortisol and corticotrophin releasing hormones... which is way too much to explain in this post. If you are interested, I can give you the brief explanation...
Sometimes you just have to roll with the punches ;-)
First off glad to be back on line via Eroids! Wow hrdbdygrrrrrrl that was deep, I understood some but got lost on the way lol. However, a good read and thanks!
Daz
OE2000Fuck that... cum punch my fart box
AnonI am a believer in non violence... I don't punch people, but gothic does ;-)
Nice one bro and thanks.
AnonThere are 2 very important points here that nobody seems to be addressing. Firstly your peak testosterone levels when you were in your 20's will only have been on average around 7mg/day, perhaps even as high as 10mg/day if you were at the very upper end of the scale. A quick calculation will give you a max of around 300mg/month. To get this much from injecting a testosterone ester will actually only require around 400mg/month. So if we are talking about a true definition of TRT in the aging male, then 400mg/month is the most that will ever be required. Anything over this dose and what you are actually doing to yourself is "Testosterone Enhancement Therapy". I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with that, however as soon as you go much above your natural youthful levels of test for any extended period, then it is only a matter of time before negative side effects will make an appearance. Probably not the best scenario for someone who is already suffering from depression. Secondly, with longterm testosterone supplementation it is imperative to be aware of the cumulative effect of the ester within the body. Every single time that you take your injection you are actually adding a little bit more than last time to the total active amount in circulation, as obviously the previous dosage is still active in your system at the time of each subsequent injection. So you can see that if you intended to use exogenous testosterone for true TRT purposes, but were using a total monthly dose of say 500mg, then after a year of this dosing schedule you would actually have a far higher accumulated dose than this in your system every month. Give that a couple of years and you will actually be reaching a mega dose in comparison to those healthy levels that you had in your 20's. If your goal is health, longevity and a depression free mental state then that is not a good scenario. If purely bigger muscles is your goal then sure, more might well be better, but eventually you will pay the price. As a closing note, I would also point out that most men on TRT totally ignore the importance of the many supporting hormones, which when used appropriately will actually reduce the total amount of test required. The body is a complex system, and to think that simply injecting some testosterone will cure all an aging male's problems, is quite honestly naive.
Very helpful and educational advice here...Thanks.
That is very interesting stuff and makes sense given the complex nature of the human body. what would you suggest as the perfect combo of compounds for health, longevity and a depression free mental state plus a bit of muscle for an added bonus?
AnonThe perfect combo is different for every individual, which is why baseline testing is absolutely essential before hormone supplementation begins, at least in an HRT scenario. However the main players that should be addressed are Testosterone, DHEA, Pregnenelone, Progesterone, Thyroid, Cortisol, Melatonin, Aldosterone, Growth Hormone, Insulin, Vasopressin, EPO, Calcitonin, and for women obviously Estrogen too. Of course not all of these need to be tested for unless there are specific symptoms present that would indicate a likely deficiency. We also know pretty accurately the average decline rate with age of many of those hormones, and I would suggest that it would be cool to supplement both Melatonin and GH without testing, especially as they are pretty hard to test for accurately anyway.
Cool. I am about to go away for a couple of weeks. On my return I would be interested to learn more.
Anonyou can use and should start off with using test e or c..ALWAYS, ALWAYS use test as a basis for your cycles. When you start getting crazy with the stacks you are stressing the endocrine system, remember, this is the race where the turtle wins not the rabbit. Also, I take a minimalist approach to using gear, reason being is that eventually you have to keep adding and upping dosages if you start off with lots of stacks and crazy dosages, you can't go backwards and expect to get the same or better results. You have in essence blown your wad before you've even started the race. Cycles typically run between 12 and 14 weeks, since you are low T you don't have to come off just use test e or c running around +/-200mg a week. Everyone is different remember minimalist approach is better.
Thats great advice. I too am a great believer in starting off at minimum dosages and try to keep it that way as long as possible. Just a point I will mention here re coming off and running approx 300mg test C or E once a week. Not sure if I read this on a thread on eroids? But the guy stated he never came off (re low test levels) And one of his testicles was completely destroyed in the process...Shriveled. Might be a one off experience I'm not sure? The other question I have is Would it be ok to take Deca along side test C? Or would it be wiser just to start my first cycle with Test C? Why not just Deca? Sorry re the questions I'm just very interested for the reasons of do's and Dont's.
Many thanks.
Dazzamma
AnonALWAYS run TEST with anything else.. Everything else will shut down ANY natty test production you might have. You can run Deca but wait at least one cycle so you know how your own physiology reacts to the test.. as for your story.. I can't verify but quite frankly, if your natty test is LOW then the dosage you run on a cruise should be to bring it up to an acceptable level. Some people come completely off for a few weeks to clear their system and then start again. You have to find what is right for you.
I'm not certain what the exact issue is here. First you have low testosterone levels. Your doc said they were normal...he means for your age of course. I know exactly how you feel. Before I got back on AAS about 4 years ago I had no libido. The effects of low T are very subtle and you don't realize they are happening over the years. Once I started AAS (my first cycle was about 400 mg Test C, 200 mg Test P and 400 mg deca a week. My sense of well being, including my libido went through the roof. I would be walking down the sidewalk and just feel good, like I hadn't felt in years.
It seems to me that you need to identify what you are looking for. Are you driving iron and want to put on mass? I see no mention of that here. If it is just to raise your testosterone levels then I would think that you would simply take about 200 to 250 mg of test C or test E twice a week. You want test because of the androgens. Don't worry about deca or tren or any of that other stuff. Then add an estrogen blocker and you should be good to go. Also you might be surprise what your doctor is willing to do for you. Once you are on, he may provide assistance with regular blood tests including the PSA to be safe. His job after all is to keep you alive in spite of yourself. ;-)
Thanks oldgymrat for your reply and input, it is very much appreciated. I didn't realise that I omitted my training and goals. I love the Iron game and got my first set of weights when I turned 12yrs old. I joined my first gym at the age of 15 and never looked back. I love body building with a passion and have sacrificed a lot over the years including many relationships. I am currently suffering from injuries and not training and eating the way I should be! My final goal is to compete again. My short term goals are to get on track and build on my mass. Like I mentioned in my initial comment starting this thread, is that I have not touched any AAS for 15yrs. I currently have deca 300 and RIP225 and obviously going to keep adding to the stack via more shots and orals and a pct. But the more I think about this I really just want to hit the test especially test C as I always had fantastic results and always felt euphoric (Hope that makes sense?). I take your valid point re my doc and keeping me alive....Makes a lot of sense bro. Just hope the British docs think the same way?...lol Once again thanks for your contribution.
Dazzamma
A pleasure. Also in regards to the Prozac, I'm curious if you will be needing that anymore once your test levels are elevated.
I guess this will be trial and error period. I really would love to get off the Prozac. I have tried in the past and failed. I'm not one for quitting and I have a lot of will power, but my attempts of coming off Prozac has been a nasty experience to say the least, hence me still on them. I need to get the timing right (I think). Not sure to gradually start to taper off the prozac before I introduce AAS or...??? I will certainly be throwing a test C in my cycle and take it from there.
I just remembered something else you might try to improve your mental status. Don't believe its all that anabolic, but might help. There is a legit (as far as I know) pharmacy in Australia that ships 5% test cream for a little over $100 US. I was using them for a little bit early in my hrt career. I felt better on it. I applied twice a day. Once am and once pm. It is a 50ml tube if I recall. They will no longer ship to the US to comply with US laws. But I believe they will to the UK. Not sure if the rules prohibit me from giving their name here, but I can try and make it available to you if you want it. One thing nice its human grade.
Got your PM re test cream..Thanks.
Daz
Hey that sounds good to me, and certainly leaves another option albiet short term though. If it is a problem re providing a company's name then I'll PM you if thats ok with you?
Cheers!
Daz
tread-mBrother give me a shout PM some time and I'll walk you through it as well as direct you a little on a few cycle tips with hrt etc. Easier than to run through it all here and then end up in PM for 2 days anyway.
Nice one Bro, I will send you a PM soon and thanks.
Thanks guys for the advice here. I must admit I'm impressed with the feedback and educational input.
manalishi7 re the U.K and steroids - In the United Kingdom, anabolic steroids are classified as class C drugs for their illegal abuse potential, which puts them in the same class as benzodiazepines. Anabolic steroids are in Schedule 4, which is divided in 2 parts; Part 1 contains most of the benzodiazepines and Part 2 contains the anabolic and androgenic steroids. There are no special controls on Schedule 4 drugs. Many prohormones or designer steroids remain legal in the UK however, they may be banned by anti-doping regulations in sports.
•It's legal to possess or import steroids as long as they're in the form of a medicinal product for personal use.
•But possession or importing with intent to supply (which includes giving them to friends) is illegal and could lead to 14 years in prison and an unlimited fine.
But hey, I'm going off topic here lol.
Like I say people, thanks for the valued feedback!
AnonIt doesnt not include steroids made by ugl, all this legistlation is about pharma grade only. Whoever is using lixus etc is braking the law in the UK. This is going to change from 2012 but internet purchases are going to be made illegal. But at least ugl steroids will be legal
Yes good point, I forgot to mention that bit about ugl's. What's the latest come 2012 mate? Or did I understand what you said re Illegal via internet come 2012? I'm interested.
Thanks.
I am no expert, and very new to hrt myself (7 months). I was able to fudge my testosterone levels a bit. Perhaps you could do likewise. My original levels was 314. My family doc was willing to put me on 100mg cypionate per week. He allows meu to selfinject. After several months he wanted test levels retested. I arranged for the test to be done 8 days post injection. My new level came in at 215. I read that cyp has a half life of 12 days, but from my personal experience seems like it drops fast. I notice many of the experienced users inject every 3-4 days to prevent this drop. Couldn't you use some test, and drop your natural levels in the toilet then go in and get yourself retested? I would also stress to your doc, that you're wanting to stay in the normal range, just more on the high end of normal. I also read that soy products will suppress testosterone production. If you still can't get satisfaction from your doc, can you find a different doc? I thought that in the UK personal use of AS was legal. Is this not true? Forgot to mention that thru further manipulation I was able to get doc to raise dose to 300mg cyp per week. I only inject 150mg saving the rest for a cycle, or if I want to play with dosing for best 'feeling' Good luck, I understand that crappy depressed feeling.
Anonyou've pretty much hit it right on with your thoughts manalishi7. Utilizing gear will stop you natty test production, if you don't systematically inject with test your levels will fall off, hence why the injection schedule is twice a week typically every 3.5 days. You would also need to list out the "side effects" of how you FEEL when your test is low, ie lethargic, inability to concentrate, lack of interest in things you used to like, etc.. what you are doing by "saving" you test is what the old timers call blast and cruise.. you are crusin..
OE2000Gurl, I wish you would quit callin us old timers.... "puts teeth back in".... Now somebody get my walker dammit!
Anonsorry just trying not to call you all bastards but ...
OE2000Damn, now that hurts......
Anonhere's a kleenex tissue.. with lotion..
First, look at the charts in the first link (remember, it is much better to be HIGH average than LOW average.
http://www.mens-hormonal-health.com/normal-testosterone-levels.html
http://www.mens-hormonal-health.com/cause-of-low-testosterone.html
Second, the US standards for Low Test seem to be changing,......for the better, see link/thread.
http://www.eroids.com/forum/steroids-qa/anabolic-steroids/testosterone-i...