posted Wed, 04/13/2016 - 15:36
17580
Political forum (express yourself)
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Ok so you guys know im all about making America great again, but this forum is for all veiws and open to debate. Education , debunking, and trying to open some eyes is also reccomended. Any topic/discussion related to politics is welcome, you are welcome to take the gloves off but keep it respectful. Show some support, go trump
keep it respectfull fellas. Debating is fine, but keep the insults to a minimum please or I pull it. TT
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You simply must stop chasing shadows dude. It ruins your credibility. I mean this in all seriousness.
StevebWell you could take the time to look up how much Soros backs Sanders and see that it's been true for the last 2 years or you could just dismiss it and call names. Why don't you look up who's paying those $15 an hour protestors.
Occupy Wall Street, Moveon.org, Ferguson, Black Lives Matter, Mecha, LA Raza and many more are all George Soros funded.
Because as soon as I see Breitbart or Alex Jones or any of your other right wing whacko links I don't wasting time.
StevebWell here is fortune magazine and Sanders himself is happy to have Moveon.org fund him. Moveon.org is run by Soros and a few other Billionaires. Billionaires, not some non profit group for the poor. Moveon.org also pays people to protest for him.
Read the Fortune article, they endorsed him. They didn't pony up anything. And as usual you are wrong about Soro's as well, he donated 6 million dollars to Hilary through his super pac. You gotta quit reading them bullshitters like Beirtbart and Alex Jones. They are the only ones spewing that horse shit.
http://fortune.com/2016/01/12/bernie-sanders-moveon-endorsement/
StevebNo I'm never wrong. They even fund rallies for him.
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2016/02/01/you-got-egg-on-my-face-after-...
To the surprise of absolutely no one, once again you dig up a story from a right wing propaganda (faux) news site. GTFO with that bullshit dude. Come at me with something you can hang your hat on..
Since your the exp on where news comes from where do you get your info ...msnbc ...lol....
No, I search and then look at all the results, it isn't hard to figure out.
If he had posted CNN or MSNBC would you believe it? All news agencies are biased. There is no such thing as objective journalism anymore in the mainstream. That being said Breitbart is Trumpbart and Alex Jones lost his fucking mind a long time ago
StevebI saw no point in continuing that debate. Does Moveon.org and George Soros support Bernie? Hell yes they do. And they organize events like they did here https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=77s1YAg1QsU
But if a news source that is shitty or unknown reports it I guess pale no longer thinks it can be true.
Steve, you just willfully ignore truth, that is why I am done with you. SOROS SUPPORTS CLINTON ASSHOLE! Now stay out of my way!
How much has he taken from them versus how much he has raised separately?
StevebA better question would be why would a group of around 5 billionaires give any money at all to a guy who supposedly wants to tax the top 1%?!?!?
You think Bernie is the only politician they have given to? Come on man, but again I will withhold getting to involved in this one until u get a chance to look into the truthfulness of all this. And how much they have donated. You ought to look into all the rest of the greasy billionaires donating in both sides
Is that Satan staring at them in the background? Bitch looks reptilian
I think Hillary turned her to stone.
Nah, that's just Ed.
Too soon for the Mexican jokes? It ain't racist cuz I'm Mexican plus who doesn't love cracking Mexican jokes?
AnonI'm Indian/Irish so your good
StevebMexican ain't a race so you're good.
I'm Dominican, Mexican jokes don't bother me
Hahahahahahahahahahaha!! Every time a thread like this pops up I have hope that we can have an intellectual debate/conversation. It always ends up like this. Somebody banned and topic of discussion drowned out.
Hopefully the thread can recover I was enjoying all of the different perspectives everyone has.
Yep every time it turns into a shit show. At my house I have a rule no political talk period. It always ends ugly.
I agree.
It is what it is homie. Not too many people can adult it seems.
What does everyone here think about free trade agreements and the empty promises all these politicians make about bringing manufacturing back home (it's not possible)
I believe they've crippled us. It creates an incentive for corporations to build in a country with a lower working wage, and they can import their product without taxes that once existed. The original concepts were good ones, but it left a Yuge loophole. With no regulation, big business quickly took advantage.
Taxes and tariffs kept American production protected. Sure, products we made cheaper elsewhere in the world, but crossing our shores was a pricey endeavor, which offset the difference in production costs, and kept American production competitive and protected.
I don't see us changing back any time soon. There is far too much money in favor of the way things are today.
I'm definitely no expert on the subject. That is just the cause and effect I see from them.
Honestly I've been wanting to research economics more. I know just the basics and regarding these FTAs I'm still waiting for one that has a truly tangible benefit for the middle/lower class.
Since you're a economics major maybe you can post up some links to help me research? Thanks
I'll see why I can dig up to help you get a better understanding of FTA, pros and cons.
Edit: So most of trying to find you something to better understand FTA literally leads to the same points being made page after page...
http://nyln.org/10-pivotal-pros-and-cons-of-nafta
http://www.forbes.com/sites/mikecollins/2015/05/06/the-pros-and-cons-of-...
http://www.state.gov/e/eb/tpp/bta/fta/c26474.htm
http://www.investopedia.com/terms/f/free_trade_area.asp
You may also want to read up a little on GATT to see where all of this originates from post WW2, and i think knowing the basics of comparative advantages would also be useful... I'll do my best to answer any of your questions and help you get a better understanding!
While Nafta really hasn't been good for the American worker it has improved conditions in Mexico. What this means is less immigration. After the economy crashed in 08 millions of Mexican workers returned home and have not come back. We still have issues with central American immigrants but last I checked even that had improved.
I for one would love to see a Pacific trade agreement which involved the US and China cooperating together.
It would only be possible with massive tax cuts to corporate profits. That would certainly bring some back. The real problem is, manufacturers have moved to countries where abuse of labor and lack of environmental regulations make manufacturing so cheap. Think about that, it is cheaper to send raw materials to china, have them manufactured there and then shipped back all the way across the ocean again for resale.
Who pays the price for that? The people in those countries. They work shit jobs under tight social controls and their water and air are polluted. The change has to happen in the conscience of the consumer..
Corporate profits are at all time highs though. I have nothing against that, but decreasing taxes will in my opinion increase their profit margins further and do nothing to return the production to the US. It is the inevitable dynamic of a global economy, production will always migrate to areas that have the cheapest labor costs (which are by and large the most expensive capital related to production).
China is advancing, rather rapidly relative to Western periods of the same time, from an industrial economy to one that will be a largely service economy like the US. I'm sure they too will have the same issues to deal with within 50 years regarding their economy as we do now.
Tax cuts would bring offshore investment capital back. So when China becomes a service economy, where does the manufacturing move? China has advance largely because they steal intellectual property from inventors and corporations in the United States. We do business with countries that do not have the same cultural values that we do. That in turn lowers the standard of living for everyone in the developed world.
The Chinese economy had always interested me because we are seeing them rapidly accelerate (although now that they've had a slowdown it's put some or the brakes on) through their industrialization. A large part of that is because the west has already gone through this process, and we are constantly acting as advisors with the Chinese FED.
The really interesting thing to me is their population... It is so much more massive than US population that it would be interesting to see if they're economy segregated into a service sector for those with more access to proper education, while those with less access continued on in their more industrial economy until that is phased out for newer markets. Remember, as of right now we are just beginning to see Chinese brands emerge and compete at a level on par with US brands, and they largely remain (although this decreases every year) A western manufacturing hub.
I'm interested to see where their operations shift once Chinese products, once considered "made in China crap", also begin to need their own manufacturing hubs at a greater magnitude than they currently have.
I understand your concern about the Chinese values, but that is largely because they do not yet have systems and institutions in place to properly govern and regulate intellectual rights, corporate rights, etc. This is constantly changing though, anyone who believes the PRC are communist is delusional. The government long ago realised the advantages of turning into a capitalist economy, but are doing so at a regulated pace in order to to destabilize the area - which ad you may imagine would cause incredible turmoil in the international market. Over the next several decades you will see these institutions put in place... Economic activity unfortunately can't be grown in a petri dish, it's a fucking snail moving forward.
The interconnection between the Chinese and US economy is undeniable but there are still reasons to be concerned. Economic interests silence any real criticism of human rights abuses and environmental degradation in China (geez, I sound like a frikin liberal but it is true). As we continue to merge economically, our society too is beginning to mimic theirs- massive surveillance infrastructure, degrading living conditions for the working class, increasing government control over industry and commerce, etc. If China is abandoning Marxist philosophy because of the progress created by the free market, why to political interests in the states continue to try and import failed Marxist social policies?
I have yet to see Chinese products on par with Western goods. Anecdotally, I work in an industry that has seen a shift to foreign manufacturing and the quality and safety of these products continues to degrade. Also the large scale shift of manufacturing overseas is a national security issue. If all of our raw materials and infrastructure for manufacturing machines and electronics are in Asia, how do we sustain defensive capabilities under attack from Russia or China?
The irony is that China has a long history of philosophical and technological innovation but generations of Marxism have absolutely choked the life out of that culture and instead they rely on the west or Russia for direction at every turn. I would like to share your optimism that the institutions will be put into place to protect intellectual rights etc but I don't see China shifting to a society that respects individual rights. While they are no longer expressly communist, the are still largely a collectivist society. The west is also adopting that globalist, collectivist mentality and it will destroy our cultures. The elites in China will merge with the elites in the US and Europe and everyone else will be in a gray area of government controls and social immobility. That is just the future I envision, a washed out consumer culture devoid of cultural traditions and individualism. The globalist model is extremely dangerous to personal freedom and the rights of the individual.
Nothing wrong with sounding like a liberal... I never understood why one had to be either liberal or conservative on every view, no matter what. You can be highly conservative on certain issues and be completely liberal on others, no harm no foul.
Of course our societal values begin to merge, kind of inevitable with free trade, ideas get shared and adopted and molded by those we interact with, I view this as a positive thing. I'm not entirely sure how the US becoming a more surveillance oriented state can be tied to the Chinese, so I can't comment on that. If anything I blame the British as they are quite openly known as one of the most heavily surveilled nations in modern times. I'd like to believe (of course this doesn't mean it's true) that our degradation of living conditions and erosion of the middle class has to do with actual capitalist market system... The owners of capital are consistently seeing higher profitability due to several factors and labor is not capturing any of that through reinvestment... The movements and motions by government are actually a response to force some of those profits back into the cycle that they were theoretically supposed to occur on their own, but aren't for whatever reasons.
China long ago abandoned Marxist philosophy, but are being slow and controlling the inflow of modern capitalism in an effort not to implode their own economy. We are talking decades of centrally planned systems needing to be carefully and efficiently phased out and replaced with free market ones. To do so all at once would collapse their economy, and in turn collapse global trade altogether. I guarantee you that it's not Chinese politicians acting on their own, but a global movement to introduce them to the free market system.
I've seen quite a lot of new Chinese products on par with western products, particularly in the tech sector. I understand the issue regarding national security, and that beckons your earlier point regarding intellectual property, especially in the military. A lot of our hardware already comes foreign produced though, so it is interesting to see this continue to develop - and I think our leaders realize that the endgame will be software side as opposed to hardware side and are now increasing cyber spending.
As to your last point, I agree that the future will likely bring a convergence of a global, collective culture, which on its own isn't a bad thing... It could actually empower the middle class a cross the globe to act in unison... Much like the Arab spring uprising has in the past. If left unchecked, I agree that it could be a have vs. have not situation, but I'm optimistic that it won't proceed down that path to the degree we both fear.
Nothing wrong with liberal in the traditional sense of social conscience and respect for minority rights but liberalism has changed. It went from "get the government out of my bedroom/ life" to cry baby absurd complaints that "life is too hard so the gov't needs to take care of me and punish those bad guys who make my life so hard". Liberals used to support working class people via unions etc but now they are just caught up in a world of fucking nonsense - transgender public school bathrooms, microagressions, safe spaces, and heavy handed authoritarian attacks on all political opponents. It is funny how when their political party isn't in power they want the government to leave them alone but once their guy is in it is a free-for-all of wielding government power to push bizarre shit on everyone else.
Personally, I am a Libertarian with a traditional western world view. I don't trust either side and would rather they just leave me the fuck alone. I believe that everyone has a right to do whatever the fuck they want but that doesn't make you free from criticism. If two dudes want to get married, fuck it, have fun but don't expect me to understand and endorse it or force religious organizations to endorse it. You are free to be you, I'm free to be me.
China may have phased out Marxist economic philosophy but they certainly have Marxist social controls- forced eugenics, one child policies, censorship of political dissent, one party control etc. That is the globalist model. We are exporting our economic way of life while compromising our social values. If everyone mixes together in a globalist society, it becomes a watered down wash of half-assed culture.
Cyber warfare is certainly the future and the west has a tremendous amount of work to do there and it can be done without unwarranted invasion of privacy and the compromise of our civil liberties.
The arab spring was a nightmare that has lead to totalitarian governments all over the middle east - ISIS, the Muslim Brotherhood, and various groups of extremists are free to run amok and terrify civilian populations. The Obama administration has seriously lit a fire in the middle east and just walked away. Their glorious revolutions didn't turn out the way they planned so they are just leaving it for the next guy to deal with.
I don't believe i subscribe entirely to either left or right wing ideology... I tend to be very liberal on social policy making views, while tending to be a little more conservative on economic issues to a certain extent of course.
China no longer has forced eugenics nor a one child policy as of last year. Again, like i said they are slowly abandoning decades of "communism" but it will take time, be hopeful!
Their censorship of political dissent and one party control is still tight but it is loosening, largely due to international pressure by the West.
The globalization of the world economy has allowed for the exporting of values for sure, and not just US values both those of other cultures. I'm going to have to disagree with you about it being a wash of half-assed culture, just an evolution of culture to a much grander mixed phase... sure it'll absolutely contain values some of us will view as garbage, but when has that not been the case?
I believe Obama recently admitted his biggest mistake was not planning for the day after liberating Libya, and I'm sure it applies to the Arab spring in general... it was a step in the right direction, but not enough was done to follow up and ensure transitional stability. It also has to do with the fact that once you thrust democratic principles upon a nation, you're going to have to deal with more radical ideals. You may not agree with them, but they do have a right to be heard... it's just unfortunate that not enough support was given to the moderate leaning majorities in these revolutions. Democracy building isn't exactly an A-B-C process... it may be a shitstorm now, but I am hopeful in 20, 30, or even 40 years down the long run we will start to see the shift towards democratically (not party wise, ideal wise) run governments. I'm an optimist, i know...
I guess we will just have to agree to disagree on globalism. My problem is that they centralization of power is always detrimental to individual rights. Local governments are bypassed by state governments, state governments by federal governments, national sovereignty is usurped by global government. The centralization of power to a far off place by unelected diplomats will always lead to tyranny no matter how good the intentions.
As far as the middle east goes, the idea that democratic ideals or a republican style of government can be implemented in Islamic countries is short sighted and ignorant of Islamic culture. Secular law is heresy in Islam. A majority of the middle east is hard line Islamist and if given the choice, they will choose sharia law/ religious authority over democracy every time. Both the Bush and Obama administrations failed to understand this and look what happened. The middle east is regressing socially and politically. Look at the most stable countries in the middle east - they are governed by monarchies and religious authority. It is just the way it is and the way it will continue to be until there are massive reforms in Islamic society.
I do however admire your optimism.
I don't like labels either, I am an American. Not a conservative, not a liberal, just me
StevebYes it is possible and it happens all the time. And to get more back we need to lower taxes on them and not have so many pointless regulations.
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/us-flips-the-script-on-jobs-reshoring-f...
I can get behind pointless regulation, or over-reaching regulation but even that has pitfalls that require a mindful eye. As far as tax breaks, only for certain things. For instance build a new plant or expand an existing one (which technically we all already get breaks for capital improvements) but we already have a corporate tax structure with far too many loopholes that are exploited. If businesses want to take advantage of the stability and security we offer them then they need to pay their fair share.
STeve you probably think it is ok to have your CEO's making wages 300x higher than their average worker too. The pay disparity in this country has gone off a cliff and wages stagnated. Yet you want to give them more? I am baffled by your mindset.
StevebOf course not I never said that or even hinted at it. But China makes it impossible for an American company to open up there and sell there. So why is it wrong for us to do the same. We already are in trade wars with many countries but the problem is we do not fight back.
Fair enough, but the total to fate according to your source is only a net gain of 10k jobs over the last two decades, largely influenced by China's increasing labor costs. Do you think this could/would last once the next big economy (I'm looking at India here) takes over their role?
You don't feel as if it a farse that these candidates are promising to bring back these jobs (they'll never reach the levels of manufacturing they once we're at) by promising to end FTAs, which actually lower taxes and fees for manufacturing between the allied nations?
Edit: Do you think it would be beneficial to allocate resources to advance training for those displaced by this shift? The inevitability of manufacturing shifting offshore to the newest industrial market should provide incentive for the FED to step in and cover costs of displaced employees more advanced training no?
We have had steady growth in the manufacturing and industrial sectors over the last seven years. There will still be ebbs and flows but while Ford may be shipping a bunch of Jobs to Mexico, GM is currently hiring at almost all of their plants here in the midwest.
Admittedly I haven't been as up to date with the NAFTA trade agreement and it's effects. How long do you think GM will be able to continue their trend for? Do you think diesel gate had any effect on perhaps turning consumers away from German cars, and possibly increasing demand for US cars somewhat?