+ 12 test prop and counting its value
Ok let's do this thing! I have had this conversation 1000 times and again just now in PM. I have so many people tell me "I'm running 700 mg's of test a week because I'm hitting 100 mg's a day of prop". Or.."I'm running a gram plus a week of test since I'm hitting 150 ed split suspension". My reply is "No , you're not".
So let me ask, do you count the steak you ate Monday on your Friday caloric intake? Of course not, so why would you count prop you hit on Monday in Fridays test total for the week? Hell if we're counting test that we know is gone let's just count the whole fing yr's test in this weeks, right?
Give me your argument on this, either I don't get it or I can't explain it well enough to make others understand ( some do get it btw but others don't or I don't). Here's my argument, test prop falls off a cliff in free test blood plasma levels in 48 hrs. So let's go from half life to life and give it 72 hrs to be nice to it. So if I'm hitting 100 mg's ed the very most I can combine count the way we do long ester that is growing every damn week is 300. That's it that's max that's the most test you will have in your system impacting plasma levels in test ever at any one time....PERIOD.
Again, I'm not counting Mondays frito pie in Fridays cals because it is gone, its not even in my house anymore unless I forgot to flush and its sure as hell not in my body!
If you hit 700 mg's of test E split weekly the ester does not drop as quick as the pins go in your ass so you are actually growing the test count weekly having a higher impact on your free test blood plasma levels until the drop reaches the increase and then you maintain an average much higher than the max of 300 you might have in the 100 ed scenario with prop.
What say you? Agree/disagree/different perspective
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hahahahahah i hear ya bro!
This has been a very useful thread!
I have been running prop 100 eod along with my regular high cruise of 250 Test E week.
I experimented with running the prop ed and seems like my body likes that more...except my skin doesn't (pin cushion). But I recently started monitoring with bp monitor and its just like tread says..it seems to be a decent way to tell whats going on with the ester decay and all..I will continue to invest in this more to see if I caan learn something more here.
Tread I agree with you, mainly from previous experance. Also, experiance from TNE..TNE is in and out of your system so fast, its used as a preworkout only. Its best to not even count the test from TNE into your weekly Test dosage. Correct?
So, I guess I should increase my long ester test to 700mg a week along with Test p at 150mg eod.
tread-mThe last part of the question would be tough for me to answer based on 100 variables when referring to "should you increase your long ester.". Its very tough to say without really going into goals and diet etc etc. I always say the diet is the real reason for the goal, the test in reality is just giving you a much more efficient wat to process protein so given we're all different, if your diet is absolute perfection to goal then maybe as little as 400 allows perfection in protein synthesis or maybe too many things are not in perfection and one would need a higher rate of test to achieve the higher rate of protein use. It explains in part why one person may have an incredibly successful cycle at 400 mg' s and anothers cycle was sort of ok with much higher numbers in mg's. Often the higher mg's are used to compensate for failures in other areas. Maybe someone has a pretty dirty diet and the gym is lacking in confusion and their body is just out of peak, that person will need a much higher dose to achieve and still achieve less than a healthier person dialed in properly diet wise on the lower dose. 700 if you have some cycle history is not out of the question at all but success is in managing the diet to goal so it can do its intended job.
So on the TNE question, maybe you simply count a days use..again, we can't count Mondays steak in Fridays caloric count right? Its this, If I took 8 ibuprofin Monday then Friday I say "well I can't have anymore ibuprofin because I had my daily max already". No, that was Mondays daily max and its gone, today you have used zero mg's for your daily max. You don't count your weeks mg's on a product that will be in your system for the day .lol...just trying to use analogy here obviously and maybe the non ester tests are the easiest way to do that.
No wonder msus504, was tellin me about your knowledge..Once you explain it, it sounds like common sence..Ill stick with 500mg Test E a week. I Most def. will switch my Test prop dosage to 50 maybe 75mg ed. I have a feeling, I will be seeing some good gains the next couple weeks. I have already added an AI and switching to ed injections of Test Prop.(Probably 50mg ed)
Here's one more good question. Does all this apply to Propionate as an ester in general? Like would it be more benifitial to go ahead and run the Masterone Propionate ed aswell, due to the rapid decline of the halflife once peak value is reached.
bRO, THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT TEST PROP BUT THE PROP ESTER. AND THE ESTER "TIME"
IS THE SAME IN ALL!
Yes, I understand that. This discussion mainly explains that after Testosterone Prop. reaches its halflife it declines at a faster rate.
My question was about another compound Masterone Prop. I was just wondering if the compound and its ester "prop", after it reaches halflife it declines at the same rate as Testosterone and it ester Prop.
Try unlocking your caps. It seems you may be yelling at me. Thanks "BIG DAWG".
Also, the question was aimed at Tread. Thank You for your reply, though. Your The first person I ever read, pinned Prop only 3 times a week. Anyway, you can do what ya want.
eod is 3 times a week. im the first to ever do that? right on lol
everyones body takes gear diff. i have went as low as twice a week just for the sex drive because of the deca. there are many reasons people use prop. @ 3 times a week, i look great, so why would i do any diff? i feel the prop in "my" body for 3 days strong! AND IM NOT YELLING SUBS. lol i type and dont look up. hey. the you speeled dawg the way i do. u could be from my state. south east usa! but yea i love the test prop and the many things it does for "me". it hurts when my bro pins. i dont feel a thing. HUMAN GRADE i yelled that subs. i just took a sub. lol really
Lol..I just got back from my sub doc...Hey what ever works for you, is all that matters, B..Somebody downvoted you, above. Im goin to upvote you because your just stating what works for you. Not givng advice.
Who ever downvoted, please comment why..Goth and Grrl have the abilty to see who downvoted people. Brian was just explaining what works for him, not giving bad advice.
good looking out suds33. u are a stand up bro.
just took a sub as in buprenorphine? with test? smh
I take a sub, as in buprenorphine e/d. While on test. Im slowly tapering off, I may just maintain for a bit longer.
My training partner and best friend, of 14 years decided he wasnt goin to do the suboxone program and continue to due his heavy duty meds instead..Well, he is now dead..Left behind a beutifull family..smhhhh, is right.
you re very right. alot of bros that use "prop" (make sure i stay on topic)and work out hard with good gear, look like they are very healthy, in reality, with out good gear, you would see what they really look like. subutex really is healping our bros live a good life and back in the gym w/o pain meds etc. to the "guys" thinking im off topic, this got brought up because me and subs33 were talking about the prop. ester when i asked about his name. we could have saved a life bringing this up. thumbs up to the name subs? and i hope you figured out if prop is the same half life in all gear, because i would like to know? hate to hear about your buddy subs. i have a number of friends dying because not taking subs. AND THEY DONT EVEN KNOW WHAT A SUB IS. well some more do now. ITS A PILL THAT HELPS YOU NOT WANT PAIN MEDS AND EVEN WORSE THINGS.
One more comment and ill leave the subject alone...Tread pretty much covered everything in this thread.
You will not believe, how many members are on suboxone/subutex..I have lots of friends and PM most of them on a regular basis. Id say at least 40% of my Eroid friends admitted to being in the suboxone program.
tread-mI do some weird things that don't necessarily benefit everyone and might confuse more than help but given I don't mind ed pins and don't have any feeling anymore in pin sites I tend to often want to run everythinf ed. Even if running longs I'll add a pinch of prop and run ed dividing the longs into the ed shots of prop. The main concern it test and gh if running it, I like a perfect balance in the axis , even if that's high balance, and the other prop esters could be ran to the half . Although, I don't mind at all running anything at half the half life in half dose believing a better blood plasma level to that compound is achieved. Certain. Things will have an exception such as an AI in the cycle. Many have better luck in perfection with every 3 days some split eod some split even further ed some bounce it in several days and out etc. It really comes down to the individual though. I think you take the protocols of anything and if something is not right you tweak to make it right, its the Human experiment brother and unlike applying an effective protocol with a general use that works for most, hormones are crazy. Need not look further than a guy who can eat 5000 cals of crap all day and never gain a pound vs a guy who can eat 1000 cals clean and gain weight. Estrogen has such a huge role in all of this, we are all so different there it amazes me. One guy running 25 mg's with his AI in pretty good shape and its not crashing and another guy same shape crashing his T 6.25 eod! So that's the whole thing, its a personal experiment. I may do fine with ed hits of tren and another guy almost identical circumstances has to drop dose to eod (with Ace) because the sides are unbareable! Goth is a good example, he runs very high doses of test and no serious or constant bp issues and I can run a gram and have to use every tool in the bag to keep bp down and have to keep water in absolute control to prevent bp. But simply put to your question, I do think you divide the dose and hit it twice as often to split the half for better use and control of any compound. Hence the splits on a test E for example.
Supernova283I'm sure tread will give you an answer as well, but yeah. The half life of pure test is going to be like 12 hours or so. It'll be gone within a day so unless you're taking it once or twice a day then you wouldn't count it.
Ya, im just using it as a preworkout...However, test is test and I agree that if a person would inject Test no Ester twice a day. Once in the morning and then, about 10-12 hours later. I feel levels would be stable enough to count the TNE. Correct?
However, treads analogy makes alot of sence.
So, keep TNE preworkout and Test P. ed and I should be GTG.
I understand..lol
Supernova283Okay I had something, but you edited which makes it moot.
Disregard post.
Supernova283I put this as a reply to my other comment, but it got pushed down. I feel it should be next to my first comment as those numbers are actually me being retarded and doing simple math wrong. These are the real numbers of how test P would decay if the half life was 3 days and you injected 100mg ED.
That should be 375 not 325 btw. Just a stupid math error I did in my head. (it's early give me a break :D) Oh also I forgot to do divide by 2 so it shouldn't be 375 it should be 225.
Here's what your decay should look like (my bad for screwing it up originally
first 3 injections =300 mg which turns into 150
next 3 injections = 150 + 300 =450 which turns into 225
Next 3 injections = 225 + 300 = 525 which turns into 262.5
Eventually you're going to slowly increase until you reach 300mg which you then add 300 mg and decays into 300mg.
tread-mPretty well explains it for the sake of our example numbers. The best and most extensive test I found at one point in time took many subjects and did injections watching test rise in terms of blood plasma and followed bloods through a full period of life. What was shown is that levels peaked obviously very quick then literally feel straight of the cliff at 48 hrs. Straight off the cliff of course meaning the half and not that they dropped down to shutdown numbers or anything. So while eod injections would not be perfection given at 48 hr intervals you have began that mega drop they would be useful at least but not the near perfection one would find ined intervals.
The best analogy would come from using the non-ester suspension where one would actually need intervals of every 6 hrs to find stability. You then stretch that out to a prop ester and expand the time between pops then expand that out to an E or C and expand that out and so on. All of which proves you cannot count mg's for an entire week with a half that does not go an entire week, as you point out and confirm in numbers as well. I think the true half though based on the best tests I've seen is about 48 hrs in average.
Thanks, I guess Ill go everyday with the Test Prop. take another pin today..lol
tread-mYeah and that may even mean cut dose in half but not sure of your specific scenario.
Your right, I uped to 150mg eod for a few days..Starting today im going to do 50mg ed..So, it would be cutting 1/3rd of the dose..Right on, im GTG with my dose and my AI.
Supernova283Good stuff.
Supernova283Testosterone decays at a linear rate. Half lives can be found somewhere (the sticky ones are incorrect) and that is the amount of time it takes for half of that substance to decay in your body.
If you inject 100mg of test P into your body ED then it will build, however because your body decays half of the substance in a certain amount of time half of that test will be gone. That also means half is still there.
So as you inject more into your body you will take in more and more test which will put you past your last test levels, however eventually you will reach a point where your injections will be exactly equal to the half life and you're only maintaining your maximum test levels.
So you can think about it like this: (These numbers came from my head and are just being used as an example. I do not know the exact half life of Test P and in fact since your body is different from everyone else's there will be a +/- amount of time to the base half life anyway)
Say test P has a half life of 3 days. I inject 100mg of Test P into my body ED.
The first three days I'll have 300mg of test in my system then it'll drop down to 150 (obviously it's not actually sharply dropping, but rather decaying slowly constantly, but for the sake of being easy we'll just look at it like your levels just drop off by half after a half life)
Then over the next 3 days I shoot another 100mg ED. My body now has 450mg of synthetic test in it (300/2 + 300). This will continue until the equation converges.
What do you mean by converges? Well if you continue that you'll see that eventually you'll reach a point where your half life time is exactly equal to the amount of test you give yourself in that half life.
So if we continue we had 450 then we add another 300 to get 750 which is then split in half to get 325mg and so on until you reach 300mg.
So basically however much testosterone you inject in one half life will eventually level out to how much testosterone you have in your system.
Lol, thier you go debating the most highly rank and respectable member here and your only 20 and never used AAS. LOL
What you read makes alot of sence, simply because your taking your information from Textbooks. However, anybody who has actualy ran a Test P cycle only, would agree with Tread..Because of thier experiance. If your goin to debat the all knowing tread, then back it up with your sources.
Im not debating you on the fact eithier. Im just helping you out.
Supernova283Also not really from a source. All of that was just from the basic understanding of how half lives work.
Half of a substance decays in a certain amount of time. The rest of what I used is just example numbers.
I think we can all agree that a half life is the amount of time it takes for a substance to decay. If I really have to cite that well then too damn bad. It's pretty much explained in the name.
I gave you a point for having the balls to debating tread..However, I feel tread would know the real facts and it would help your case to back it up with 3 sources. His information in the past has helped many members grow bigger, stronger and faster. Nuff said!
Supernova283There are no sources. All those numbers were made up. I don't actually know the half life of Test P as I stated.
I was pretty sure people already knew that testosterone decayed linearly and thought it was common knowledge, but I'll find a source that states that it does if you want.
Like I said, what your saying makes sence. So basicly, to keep your test levels elevated high enough for muscle gains, it would be wise to inject ed or eod. This is all basic 101..Half-life math...
Supernova283Yeah pretty much, but as for the ED/EOD injections that's a bit of a different story.
It wouldn't matter about the ED or EOD injections as far as keeping test levels elevated. Smaller more frequent injections will just keep you from spiking your test up high in a small period of time.
The half life will stay the same regardless. So if the half life was 3 days you could inject once every 3 days at 300mg or once every other day at 150 or once a day at 100 and it would all be the same. You could even inject once every 6 days @ 600mg, but injecting more frequently at smaller amounts will cause a gradual increase in T levels which will be more stable overall.
Supernova283I was actually agreeing with him to a degree. Just explaining it differently.
I think I should put what I'm originally trying to do at the top because to me that shows an agreeing opinion with tread, but I don't know if you guys see that.
Well then a point for taking the time and writing a good reply. I would be interested to read treads reply. Also, Im not debating you..Your Research make alot of sence.
Supernova283That should be 375 not 325 btw. Just a stupid math error I did in my head. (it's early give me a break :D) Oh also I forgot to do divide by 2 so it shouldn't be 375 it should be 225.
Here's what your decay should look like (my bad for screwing it up originally
first 3 injections =300 mg which turns into 150
next 3 injections = 150 + 300 =450 which turns into 225
Next 3 injections = 225 + 300 = 525 which turns into 262.5
Eventually you're going to slowly increase until you reach 300mg which you then add 300 mg and decays into 300mg.
Supernova283Now Esters delay the uptake of Testosterone. Which as Tread said allows the testosterone to build in your system. The uptake is slower, but just as with the half lives eventually reach equilibrium the rate of your injections will stabilize into the rate of absorption of that substance.
This is because until you hit the rate at which you absorb the same amount of testosterone in the period of time that you inject the estered test in your system will continue to grow.
So basically the amount of testosterone present in your body is going to equal the amount of testosterone you inject in 1 half life as long as you give it enough time to reach equilibrium.
Test P is going to come to equilibrium much faster than Test E since its rate or absorption and overall decay is faster.
When you say equilibrium, are you meaning its peak (half-life) right before it declines?
Supernova283I just meant that when your levels in that time period will be the same as long as you continue your injections.
So instead of having an increase per unit time you'll have the same levels as you would in the same point of time after your injection as another little phase.
naguib123so what ur saying is if i wana do a prop cycle @ 500 mg / week i actually have to inject close too 170mg of prop a day to make 1200 mg week which is really 500mg a week
Yea I agree with you, if your using prop, due to the drugs ester it's gone within 48-72 hrs. Therefore you cannot say I'm running 700mg per week at 100mg ed, that shot you took that previous week has long since left your system, and is doing nothing to increase levels. But in saying that I don't think 100mg ed of prop would be any less effective as say 700mg week of enth or cyp.
that last bit is what i'd like to know,
tread-mYeah his point is well shared I think by many and I share it to "some" degree.. as someone who uses a lot of prop in B&C I have been able to figure something out that others who may only use it in short cycles or kicks and tapers may or may not have figured out. Ok so what I do is usually take my bp daily. Bp is a really cool way to manage your experience with test in terms of how frequently you need to pin etc but it takes a long time if you really want some science behind it for the individual. I say for the individual because we are all going to break down esters and carry test in higher levels differently based on our own body. So for myself in checking bp I notice at about 48 hrs the slightly elevated level I had i n bp drops back off. If I maintain daily injections the slight elevation stays in constant . So that is actuallly answering some questions for me. I know we can sit and do the math as to half life, life and build ratio in numbers but its still tough to debate the bp for an individual. If I go 72 hrs my bp does actually drop a bit more which means at 48 some of the test broke down in depletion based on half and then at 72 there was either further breakdown of "some" test. In the life. That means possibly even some of the ester possibly degraded faster than the majority and dropped quicker than the majority . Either way, by 48 hrs the largest depletio. As to half life had occured. I can go to the ed injection and after 24 hrs of the first pop bp slightly elevate. Continuing ed there is a slight build. And after a few days bp will slightly elevate again and then ceiling for me personally. By the end of about a week I have some degree of perfection there and all is stable, higher than normal bp but stable. Now take test E. Let the build and degredation of ester peak and a "semi"-stability comes in and you have achieved roughly wht you did. With ed prop inj. I will often have someone test to see if their prop is bunk by injecting 200 mg's of prop and watch for spike in bp after having ran 2 or 3 days of bp averages pre-use. That science does not tell us the strength of the product as to proper dosing but does answer whether or not its straight oil or product is present.
So. Long story short I agree with the 700=700 argument to the degree they will both be effective cycles but you will as a longer term user see there is a difference. Not a difference necessarily that will be extremely obvious in ny way if eating properf to goal because when doing so one might even see a much smaller dose is needed given the diet is the true reason for growth and the exta gear is just allowing protein to be processed at a higher rate of efficiency.
Anyway, provided your diet is clean and you have very high water intake, running an AI and limiting salt you can actually see how well a product is maintaining the "stability" I refer to by running bp a couple times a day using both long and short ester test seperate in different cycles and watching how they effect you personally. Easy way to prove out the debate in effectiveness is with suspension. You can see with suspension the bp will change dramatically in flucuation without multiple shots in a day and if using suspension even daily you realize half life does not really apply to it given no ester and that argument of in and out can play itself over to the argument that prop in short ester is in and out as well just actually having a little "build " factor and that a longer version of ester will have a larger degree of "build" factor giving 2 different experiences even if only detectable with a l?onger term user.
duh
lol
i get what ur saying, does that also mean it should be fine/safe to bump it up a bit more aswell? i normally do around 700mg a week of test cyp when on cycle so would 1.5-2mls of test p ed put keep around the same amount of test flowing through me? if u get what i mean.
prob comes across as a stupid question lol just never thought of it that way u just put it,
StevebYeah if its gone in a few days why would you count it a week later. Good post
Never really thought about it in that way but it makes sense though