+ 41 Can Berberine replace Metformin - Insulin sensitivity and a host of other benefits
This one’s a doozy. But in this write-up, we’ll examine the many benefits of Berberine including improved insulin sensitivity, and if it can replace Metformin (Glucophage) as a safer alternative.
What is Metformin?
Metformin, aka Metformin HCL, aka Metformin hydrochloride, aka Glucophage, is a drug given to people with non-insulin dependent type 2 diabetes to help bring down their blood glucose levels and improve insulin sensitivity. In other words, their body still makes insulin, it just stinks at using it. (1)
It can also sometimes be used in conjunction with insulin in non-insulin dependent type 2 diabetes, and even rarely in select patients with insulin dependent type 2 diabetes. (2)
What does metformin do?
Metformin works to lower your blood glucose levels. It does this in a couple ways.
1) cuts down on the amount of glucose your liver kicks out
2) improves your insulin sensitivity, specifically how sensitive your muscles are to insulin
3) cuts down on how much glucose you absorb through the food you eat. (1, 3)
Metformin's use in bodybuilding.
There are legit uses for metformin in bodybuilding, and they're very similar and/or directly related to why it is beneficial for diabetics. I mean who doesn't want to have awesome insulin sensitivity, right? Your muscles are more sensitive to insulin so they scoop up glucose better, allowing for that pump we all love. Your muscles can then make better use of that nutrition they're holding after you damage them after training. It helps your body make much better use of glucose, which will allow users to eat more carbs without worrying as much about it turning to fat. And, because extended HGH use can cause cause a rise in insulin resistance (4), Metformin can help mitigate this shitty side effect of HGH.
However, metformin is not without it's own set of side effects.
Side effects of Metformin
From drugs.com (5). You can read the giant list on your own, but here are the highlights.
- abdominal pain
- decreased appetite
- diarrhea
- fast/shallow breathing
- fever/chills
- lower back pain
- muscle pain/cramping
- painful urination
- lethargy
- anxiety
- blurred vision
- confusion
- depression
- seizures
- shakiness
- slurred spray
- tightness in chest
- loss of strength
- excess gas in stomach or intestines
- flu like symptoms
1-10% hypoglycemia
Very rare >0.01% Lactic acidosis (serious shit)
That ends it for drugs.com.
Top those off with what should concern us hormone-wise:
- decrease total and free testosterone in non-diabetic men (6)
- downregulation of androgen receptors (not desensitizing the receptors... literally gets rid of androgen receptors… gross) (7)
Now if you're on exogenous testosterone anyway those two are probably a wash, but I wouldn't fuck with the stuff if you're natty, and DEFINITELY not during PCT.
"But wait! Could there be a herbal OTC alternative that is just as, or possibly even more effective than metformin?"
Well little Jimmy, there is! You may be in luck. Let me tell you about Berberine.
What is berberine?
Berberine is an extract from a berry shrub called Berberis Vulgaris, aka common Barberry, aka European barberry, aka Barberry, hailing from Southern Europe, Africa and Western Asia. (8)
It's being studied for its anti-aging, anti-diabetic and anti-cancer properties. And all it takes is a quick Google to see that more and more diabetics have been successfully replacing their metformin with berberine.
Using berberine in place of metformin?
So how did I stumble on this shit? You may or may not be asking yourself... I was researching new ways to increase my insulin sensitivity. I already do the standards like improving omega 6:3 ratio, drinking apple cider vinegar, green tea, cutting out simple carbs, etc. and thought "well, what do diabetics do?” I started looking at supps for diabetics and researching the ingredients, and found two very strong candidates. One being berberine and the other gymnemma (maybe another post one day? We’ll see. This was a lot of fucking work).
Berberine was the strongest since there were tons of articles, controlled medical studies, and forum posts of diabetics and doctors claiming berberine was just as effective as metformin, with some swapping out one for the other with great success. You can do the googling yourself if you want to hear the personal accounts or read the articles, but I'll sum it up for you, mainly the medical studies since the proof is in the pudding.
Studies show berberine's effects not only match metformin, but can eclipse it....
Ok, here's where the fun shit starts. Although we don't really hear about it, scientists have been sciencing the balls out of Berberine and its comparability to Metformin for years...
In one study, 74 patients (there were a few more, but a couple dropped out and others where kicked out for being lazy with their drugs and not following directions, because why would they?) with newly diagnosed type 2 diabetes were split into two groups. One group received 500mgs of Berberine three times daily after meals, and Group B received 500mg of Metformin three times daily after meals. I'm going to copy and paste this part instead of summarizing so I don't fuck it up:
Compared with metformin, berberine exhibited an identical effect in the regulation of glucose metabolism, such as HbA1c, FBG, PBG, fasting insulin and postprandial insulin. In the regulation of lipid metabolism, berberine activity is better than metformin. By week 13, triglycerides and total cholesterol in the berberine group had decreased and were significantly lower than in the metformin group (P<0.05).(9)
So that's what's up...
Another study (that i would have had to purchase for the details, but we at least get the abstract) proved that Berberine given to humans with type 2 diabetes lowered their fasting blood glucose, hemoglobin A1C (super important measure in diabetes), triglyceride, and insulin levels similar to the level Metformin and Rosiglitazone does. It did this by increasing the expression of the insulin receptor (aka improving sensitivity). It also improved liver enzymes and liver function. Again, I don't wanna mess this part up:
Our results confirmed the activity of BBR on InsR in humans and its relationship with the glucose-lowering effect. Together with our previous report, we strongly suggest BBR as an ideal medicine for T2DM (Type 2 diabetes mellitus). (10)
But wait, there's more!
Another study investigated Berberines effect on both metabolic disorders like diabetes and cardiovascular disease. It not only confirmed what the other studies found, that's it's awesome at lowering glucose, nutrient partitioning and improving insulin sensitivity to the same level as metformin, BUT also demonstrated effects on the AMPK activity involved in cardiovascular disorders. Concluding...
In fact, widely used drugs, including statins, metformin and rosiglitazone, execute CV protective effects though the activation of AMPK. The demonstrated efficacy in dyslipidemia and the promising antiarrhythmic activity make BBR a candidate for further study to provide new insights for therapeutic purpose. (11)
Another study used only 24 people with metabolic syndrome. 12 got 500mg of Berberine 3 times a day before meals, the other 12 got a placebo. No change was shown in the placebo group. The Berberine group had a 36% remission of metabolic disorder, their waist shrunk, systolic blood pressure, total insulin secretion and triglycerides all were lowered, and insiulin sensitivity improved. (12)
Wham-O!
Lipid improvement? Yes please!
Yet another study looked at Berberines effect on the blood lipid profile. The study gave subjects two 500mg doses a day of either Berberine or placebo for 3 months. Then they took them off for 2 months as a “wash out period”, then started up the treatment again for another 3 months. Results?
A decrease of body weight and BMI was observed after the run-in period. Berberine reduced total cholesterol, triglycerides and LDL cholesterol and increased HDL cholesterol after 3 months from randomization and compared with placebo. After the washout period, lipid profile worsened; afterward, when berberine was reintroduced, lipid profile improved again both compared with the washout period, and with placebo. (13)
They concluded it was effective and safe for low risk patients.
I know... You're all like "Holy shit, D... are there ANY downsides?!"
Dangers/sides of berberine?
Berberine has an extremely low toxicity – Yay!
Some gastrointestinal discomfort was found for a few patients in one of the studies above (I think (9)?). That was mitigated by dropping the dose to 300mgs 3 times daily instead of 500mgs. So you may experience cramping, diarrhea, or nausea. (I didn't, but you might)
I found these drug interactions in another article about sides and stacks that already did the research for me and cited said research in the article (14)
-
Berberine lowers blood sugar and can increase the effects of other drugs that perform the same task.
-
Berberine inhibits cytochromes CYP2D6, CYP2C9, and CYP3A4. These cytochromes are the targets of a large number of medications, so check that you're not taking something that targets one of those.
-
"Berberine has a powerful effect on anion transporter proteins in the cell membrane. A few medications use these transporters to access your cells and deliver their effects. One important medication is Metformin" (14)
-
Dangerous interaction with macrolide antibiotics. "The Berberine toxicity occurs at hERG channels in the heart. There is a potential for serious negative health effects in these interactions. (14)"
So don't mix it with any of those.
Also, webMD says don't give it to babies. So don't do that either. But really, you'd kind of be an asshole if you did anyway...
The one downside I can find is that it's bioavailability isn't super awesome. In fact it's the opposite of super awesome. In theory, if the bioavailability can be improved, maybe less can be taken and that would cut down on anyone experiencing gastrointestinal issues. BUT I found a way that should improve that too!
Improving bioavailability
While the studies dosed orally and it still worked, we can make it even better. Studies show that P-glycoprotein is a real cock-block when it comes to absorbing Berberine in the intestines, and that the use of a P-glycoprotien inhibitor increased absorption 6-fold in rats (15).
Problem solver? Milk Thistle! Studies show that milk thistle (silymarin) does a good job at inhibiting p-glycoprotein, therefore improving Berberine’s bioavailability. (16, 17)
They sell one Berberine supp on Amazon with silymarin (the active ingredient in milk thistle that does all the great things milk thistle is known for) already in it. But you can also just take it together with it if you have it around... which I'm sure a lot of you do.
Benefits of taking berberine instead of metformin?
A lot less possible sides, no known dangers for the kidney and it's cheaper. And legal. And OTC. No effect on Natural Test, or Free Test, or androgen receptors, or TSH... So there you have it.
But, will it perform as well for bodybuilding purposes?
Will it work for our purposes?
Ahhh the million dollar question... and the one that I did ZERO research on aside for trying it myself. In theory, yes. Unlike all of our other "tools", we use metformin at "normal" studied dosages. Berberine works just as well and extremely similarly to metformin in diabetics and normal people, so why not for bodybuilding purposes? Want to keep your muscles fuller during low carb dieting? Try berberine! GH use got your insulin sensitivity down? Try berberine! etc. etc.
I tried it for 2 months and I leaned out and had great pumps. That being said, I was also on 535mg of Test and 50mgs of Anavar at the time... so that would have happened anyway. But maybe it added to it? Not really a fair way to test it. I ordered more and will be giving it another go now that I'm off and will update this post with the results. In theory, I should be able to get a better pump, eat more carbs without gaining fat, or trim my waist a bit if I stick to normal carbs... just like one would report with metformin. Alas (Alas? Did I come over on the Mayflower?), only time will tell.
I will say that a couple times I didn't eat carbs in the morning while taking it on cycle. I felt a little hypo and it was fixed by taking in 30g of some simple carbs. Maybe in my head? Can't be 100% sure, but I'd like to think not.
Be a Guinea Pig with me!
I'd love for anyone interested to give this supplement a shot and report back with the details. Especially metformin guys, for an even better comparison! If you report back with your experience here or in a PM, I'll make sure to keep this updated with real world results (or lack there of). I'm sure there are varying qualities of this product out there on the market, and only the real shit will give us real answers, so go with a brand you trust!
I enjoyed putting this together. I hope you guys enjoyed reading it and found it informative. I know it was long and possibly boring to anyone that isn't me.
And I REALLY hope that I can update this in a couple months with some of your experiences in a final section to properly wrap it up. Maybe something good will come out of it.
Thanks to Makwa for encouraging me to write this. No homo.
Citations:
-
WebMD - Drugs - Metformin HCL (http://www.webmd.com/drugs/2/drug-11285-7061/metformin-oral/metformin-or...)
-
Combination therapy with insulin and metformin (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/15251717/)
-
Glucophage (Metformin) and Diabetes (http://www.diabetes.co.uk/diabetes-medication/glucophage.html)
-
Growth hormone replacement therapy induces insulin resistance by activating the glucose-fatty acid cycle (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/12679422/)
-
Drugs.com - Metformin side effects (https://www.drugs.com/amp/sfx/metformin-side-effects.html)
-
Effects of short term metformin administration on androgens in normal men.
(http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=13918081) -
Metformin represses androgen-dependent and androgen-independent prostate cancers by targeting the androgen receptor.
(https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/25894097/) -
Wikipedia - Berberis Vulgaris (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berberis_vulgaris)
-
Efficacy of Berberine in Patients with Type 2 Diabetes (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2410097/)
-
Berberine lowers blood glucose in type 2 diabetes mellitus patients through increasing insulin receptor expression (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0026049509003163)
-
Cardiovascular and metabolic effects of Berberine (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2999047/#!po=54.9180)
-
Effect of Berberine Administration on Metabolic Syndrome, Insulin Sensitivity, and Insulin Secretion (http://online.liebertpub.com/doi/pdf/10.1089/met.2012.0183)
-
Effects of berberine on lipid profile in subjects with low cardiovascular risk. (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23441841/)
-
Taking Berberine? Look out for these 3 sides and 3 great stacks! (https://liftmode.com/blog/berberine-side-effects/#_ftn4)
-
The involvement of P-glycoprotein in berberine absorption (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/12530470/)
-
Herbal modulation of P-glycoprotein (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/15072439/)
-
Inhibition of P-glycoprotein by natural products in human breast cancer cells (https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2FBF02977349?LI=true)
- Bookmark
- 41
- 0
Sorry if I break the rules mods......
My berberine HCL from Amazon .
A white tub with small blue writing on it
I’ve been trying diff brands on amazon. 1 I liked the other I don’t think was as good. Just got a new one that seems legit and has milk thistle in it for absorption. I’ll ask pale if we can post brands since it’s just a vitamin.
RustyhookerVitamin shop. 250mg caps. Was bout 16 bucks if i remember right.
I dunno cuz it’s just a vitamin. I’d like to know cuz I just used a brand that didn’t hold up to the previous one. And we all know how the vitamin industry is.
Maybe Pale or Greg will chime in and clear it up. I mean we can all PM each other but that would be a pain.
Yeh would definitely be good to know.if one brand works well for one or more members then it would make sense to all try and purchase the same brand and see how the individual reacts
Agreed. If Greg or Pale doesn’t see this in the next day or two I’ll shoot Pale a pm to find out.
Cool mate thanks
goooooood shit brother. this is great info. thanks! keep us posted!
No probs man glad to contrib a little.
Im not going to take any tonight or all dy tomorrow to try get the sat benchmark as close to before i took ber at all. Blood will show eother way. Update you monday
Great article - love the references\citations - gives it credibility. Going to give this stuff a try...i'm sure you mentioned it, but what is the recommended daily intake of Berberine and milk thistle and how long should it be used? For example - if i am using GH - should it be run for the duration of the GH cycle?
Im using the study doses of 500mg 3x/day with meals. Some guys are trying at 2x a day, and rusty is playing it safe and starting at 250x2 until he’s sure it won’t make him go hypo. I’d say play around with it and use what ends up being effective. Maybe start 500x2 ed with your biggest carb meals and if it’s too much back down, If you can handle more and decide you can benefit from a third dose, add a third. They didn’t even have type 2 diabetics go over 500x3 tho.
As far as milk thistle I couldn’t find a dosage. I just got a middle of the road dose and take it twice a day. There’s a brand on amazon that comes with it in there. I can’t remember the dose but it was low, so I imagine you don’t need a ton. They might mention a dose in the study I referenced but I can’t remember.
I'm working on keeping a detailed log of my addition of berberine to my suppliment regimen, but I've altered a few other aspects of my daily sup/ped regimen as well so the results won't be as clear as they would if it was a controlled addition, but I'll post up my results in a month or two regardless. So far I've been leaning out a bit beyond what I'd expect from this cycle, but the blood sugar control and longevity are the real prize here.
thanks for the update. looking forward to your final thoughts. I agree this could be a real game changer as far as longevity goes. I believe the anti-agin crowd is experimenting with it for it's AMPK activating capabilities.
Agreed. The combination of its AMPK activating abilities, blood sugar control, weight control, increase in baseline athletic capacity and even potential dementia and Alzheimers treatment is a potent combination for anyone in the anti-aging market. Seems that this may be something that could succeed where reservatrol failed.
I know its been said already, but I'm curious how long It'll take before berberine is turned pharma and chemically altered into some Faustian cocktail
Starting to notice the leaning down again like I had with metformin. I also take a big blast of cinnamon in my morning shake as well which also supposedly shares some of the same attributes as far as nutrient shuttling.
Good shit. I noticed a bit as well on maintenance, but your ability to compare to metformin is invaluable.
I thought about doing the same with cinnamon. Have the pills in the cabinet but haven't used them yet.
I just upped my cals by 4-500/daily to start a slowish bulk last week, so it will be interesting to see if berberine can provide any edge there too.
RustyhookerGot my berberine and going to run 250mg x 2 times a day. The type 2 folks ran it quite a bunch higher but gonna start low.
Damn, that's super conservative. It will be very valuable if you notice anything from such a low dose. I like that approach. I went balls deep and right to the study dosage of 500x3/ed lol. Are you taking any milk thistle to help with absorption?
Good luck buddy. cant' wait to hear about it.
RustyhookerGetting milk thistle this week. Went low dosed based on the studies went for type 2 diabetes plus the cycle i started. Im on a chem thats a carb whore. Lol. Easy enough to raise it up after i see im not going hypo.
absolutely. i dig it. good luck on your run!
RustyhookerBumping to 500 x 2 meals. Just took 500 with combo of eggs and oats. Branch bcaa 15mg too.
Just an update from me guys about my cravings....
They have completely gone I've been talking it with a carb/casein shake and this has worked at keeping the cravings at bay.
Thanks Dacky ;)
Nice. Thanks for the update buddy. Looking forward to your final thoughts after you give it a good run
Update that I'll also add to the post if you guys agree and are interested:
If someone really wants to go balls out, get a 2 hour insulin glucose challenge test before you start Berberine, and again a month or two after you start it.
Or if you don't want to get poked twice in one day, do a half fast version yourself and eat 40-50 grams of carbs when you wake up and get blood drawn for insulin and glucose 2 hours later, then again after like 2 months of Berberine. Make sure you eat the same amount of the same thing both times.
I'm sad I just thought about this, and am goin to talk to my doc about it next time I go. Maybe I'll go thru a wash out period and try this myself if he's game. If not then maybe I'll just do my made up "half fast" version I just talked about.
I have a glucose meter, cant measure insulin per sé but should get a good indication of response considering my baseline fasting glucose and post meal glucose levels (been measuring for a spell now on doc orders), and the blood sugar levels will certainly tell a tale
Getting some berb today hopefully
I'm getting one from Lloyds mate £56. I think
Abbot were giving them away in the UK/Ire for free (if you have diabetes that is ahem)
Thanks mate ;)
Nice! Super pumped to hear about the outcome. Good shit, boss.
I should get one myself too. Don't know why I haven't it's not like they're expensive. My future mother in law asked me what I wanted for my birthday (lol) and I've been looking for something little to tell her. I'm either gonna get an eye roll, or look of confusion/concern. Both are worth not buyin it myself lol.
Id recommend it, not to feed into any paranoia or anything but for this, definitely of value, but also after reading a report recently that said if your levels are up high so >5 mmol's for an extended period of time it could be a predictor of future CV disease. In other words, at 5.5 fasting, todays standards say you're grand right now albeit at an upper end of the range, but in 10 years time the >5 for long periods will lead in 70% (i think) of people to a cardiac event or disease.... something like that if my memory serves.
definitely something to monitor periodically and something that berb can stick on its list as preventing!
I can see the madvertisements......: Berberine, Wonder Drug.... not only will it cure you now, but it might just save your life 10 years from now! Berberine.... it's good for what ails ya!
Yea i'm definitely gonna grab one then. Very good to know. Thanks for the info. I knew there was a correlation obviously, but I had no idea of the actual numbers and how close it can be.
lol I can see the ads now.
It actually is something they're looking into though. One of the studies from my write up touched on it, and concluded it was worth further investigation and had potential:
Ah! There you go man. Ahead of the game
Ive a feeling this is going to be a big deal in time
definitely has the potential, at least. would be pretty cool if a natural vitamin ended up becoming that helpful. Problem is pharma can't patent it lol (althought i'm sure they'll find a way!)
Pharma will probably do what they always do.....crush the little guy, eventually becoming the main distributor of said product. And then slowly over the years change the ingredients till there is hardly any of the original product left
Yea.. they'll start by simply finding a way to drastically improve bioavailability... over the years as patents run out it will turn into another beast as you described, and 50 years from now BfromChicago will be writing a post about a safe alternative to that lol
LMFAO!!
"Bfromchicago" ..........love it ;)
Yep just like test undec lol
Anyone getting cravings for sugar on this??
Dizziness
Hot flashes
Cheers guys
No but I have only taken it with meals containing > 30g of carbs.
Yes me. Need to have about 50g of carbs in within about 15mins of taking 500mg or I get a bit hypo on it.
Same. I've always taken it with a carb meal and the one or two times I didn't I felt a touch of hypo. 20g seemed to do it for me though. Nice to hear it wasn't just me. Thanks for the input guys.
Can't wait to hear everyone's final thoughts.
Great write up thanks for sharing I had just heard about this so this helps alot.
Thank boss. Glad you dug it. If you run it please post any feedback/results/lack of results in this thread after youve taken it long enough to get a good read on it. I'd really appreciate it.
I will and I will also be interested in any updates you add to it.
Sweet. Yea I'm gonna update when I have some solid feedback, so far I just have some little stuff trickling in here and there but it's still early and I'm glad people are waiting a while before jumping the gun on feedback so we can get an accurate assessment over time.
Hopefully we have enough by Christmas for a solid open-ended start to a results conclusion. At the very least I'll have my assessment and the bits I have from other so far by then.
Ah sorry that was a typo.......should have read 30g :-)
Thanks Dacky!
I'll make sure I have a carb shake on hand from now on I'll keep you posted mate....Thanks
What a solid read, the next instalment shall be even more interesting. Thanks
I do notice heartburn more again, especially if I forget to take it for a day
I typically get bad heartburn from taking cialis pre-workout but since I started with the berberine it is not nearly as bad...I guess everybody is different with regards to their sides.