DfromPhilly's picture
DfromPhilly
  • 691
32626

+ 41 Can Berberine replace Metformin - Insulin sensitivity and a host of other benefits

ad

This one’s a doozy. But in this write-up, we’ll examine the many benefits of Berberine including improved insulin sensitivity, and if it can replace Metformin (Glucophage) as a safer alternative.

What is Metformin?

Metformin, aka Metformin HCL, aka Metformin hydrochloride, aka Glucophage, is a drug given to people with non-insulin dependent type 2 diabetes to help bring down their blood glucose levels and improve insulin sensitivity. In other words, their body still makes insulin, it just stinks at using it. (1)

It can also sometimes be used in conjunction with insulin in non-insulin dependent type 2 diabetes, and even rarely in select patients with insulin dependent type 2 diabetes. (2)

What does metformin do?

Metformin works to lower your blood glucose levels. It does this in a couple ways.
1) cuts down on the amount of glucose your liver kicks out
2) improves your insulin sensitivity, specifically how sensitive your muscles are to insulin
3) cuts down on how much glucose you absorb through the food you eat. (1, 3)

Metformin's use in bodybuilding.

There are legit uses for metformin in bodybuilding, and they're very similar and/or directly related to why it is beneficial for diabetics. I mean who doesn't want to have awesome insulin sensitivity, right? Your muscles are more sensitive to insulin so they scoop up glucose better, allowing for that pump we all love. Your muscles can then make better use of that nutrition they're holding after you damage them after training. It helps your body make much better use of glucose, which will allow users to eat more carbs without worrying as much about it turning to fat. And, because extended HGH use can cause cause a rise in insulin resistance (4), Metformin can help mitigate this shitty side effect of HGH.

However, metformin is not without it's own set of side effects.

Side effects of Metformin

From drugs.com (5). You can read the giant list on your own, but here are the highlights.
- abdominal pain
- decreased appetite
- diarrhea
- fast/shallow breathing
- fever/chills
- lower back pain
- muscle pain/cramping
- painful urination
- lethargy
- anxiety
- blurred vision
- confusion
- depression
- seizures
- shakiness
- slurred spray
- tightness in chest
- loss of strength
- excess gas in stomach or intestines
- flu like symptoms

1-10% hypoglycemia
Very rare >0.01% Lactic acidosis (serious shit)

That ends it for drugs.com.

Top those off with what should concern us hormone-wise:
- decrease total and free testosterone in non-diabetic men (6)
- downregulation of androgen receptors (not desensitizing the receptors... literally gets rid of androgen receptors… gross) (7)

Now if you're on exogenous testosterone anyway those two are probably a wash, but I wouldn't fuck with the stuff if you're natty, and DEFINITELY not during PCT.

"But wait! Could there be a herbal OTC alternative that is just as, or possibly even more effective than metformin?"

Well little Jimmy, there is! You may be in luck. Let me tell you about Berberine.

What is berberine?

Berberine is an extract from a berry shrub called Berberis Vulgaris, aka common Barberry, aka European barberry, aka Barberry, hailing from Southern Europe, Africa and Western Asia. (8)

It's being studied for its anti-aging, anti-diabetic and anti-cancer properties. And all it takes is a quick Google to see that more and more diabetics have been successfully replacing their metformin with berberine.

Using berberine in place of metformin?

So how did I stumble on this shit? You may or may not be asking yourself... I was researching new ways to increase my insulin sensitivity. I already do the standards like improving omega 6:3 ratio, drinking apple cider vinegar, green tea, cutting out simple carbs, etc. and thought "well, what do diabetics do?” I started looking at supps for diabetics and researching the ingredients, and found two very strong candidates. One being berberine and the other gymnemma (maybe another post one day? We’ll see. This was a lot of fucking work).

Berberine was the strongest since there were tons of articles, controlled medical studies, and forum posts of diabetics and doctors claiming berberine was just as effective as metformin, with some swapping out one for the other with great success. You can do the googling yourself if you want to hear the personal accounts or read the articles, but I'll sum it up for you, mainly the medical studies since the proof is in the pudding.

Studies show berberine's effects not only match metformin, but can eclipse it....
Ok, here's where the fun shit starts. Although we don't really hear about it, scientists have been sciencing the balls out of Berberine and its comparability to Metformin for years...

In one study, 74 patients (there were a few more, but a couple dropped out and others where kicked out for being lazy with their drugs and not following directions, because why would they?) with newly diagnosed type 2 diabetes were split into two groups. One group received 500mgs of Berberine three times daily after meals, and Group B received 500mg of Metformin three times daily after meals. I'm going to copy and paste this part instead of summarizing so I don't fuck it up:

Compared with metformin, berberine exhibited an identical effect in the regulation of glucose metabolism, such as HbA1c, FBG, PBG, fasting insulin and postprandial insulin. In the regulation of lipid metabolism, berberine activity is better than metformin. By week 13, triglycerides and total cholesterol in the berberine group had decreased and were significantly lower than in the metformin group (P<0.05).(9)

So that's what's up...

Another study (that i would have had to purchase for the details, but we at least get the abstract) proved that Berberine given to humans with type 2 diabetes lowered their fasting blood glucose, hemoglobin A1C (super important measure in diabetes), triglyceride, and insulin levels similar to the level Metformin and Rosiglitazone does. It did this by increasing the expression of the insulin receptor (aka improving sensitivity). It also improved liver enzymes and liver function. Again, I don't wanna mess this part up:

Our results confirmed the activity of BBR on InsR in humans and its relationship with the glucose-lowering effect. Together with our previous report, we strongly suggest BBR as an ideal medicine for T2DM (Type 2 diabetes mellitus). (10)

But wait, there's more!

Another study investigated Berberines effect on both metabolic disorders like diabetes and cardiovascular disease. It not only confirmed what the other studies found, that's it's awesome at lowering glucose, nutrient partitioning and improving insulin sensitivity to the same level as metformin, BUT also demonstrated effects on the AMPK activity involved in cardiovascular disorders. Concluding...

In fact, widely used drugs, including statins, metformin and rosiglitazone, execute CV protective effects though the activation of AMPK. The demonstrated efficacy in dyslipidemia and the promising antiarrhythmic activity make BBR a candidate for further study to provide new insights for therapeutic purpose. (11)

Another study used only 24 people with metabolic syndrome. 12 got 500mg of Berberine 3 times a day before meals, the other 12 got a placebo. No change was shown in the placebo group. The Berberine group had a 36% remission of metabolic disorder, their waist shrunk, systolic blood pressure, total insulin secretion and triglycerides all were lowered, and insiulin sensitivity improved. (12)

Wham-O!

Lipid improvement? Yes please!

Yet another study looked at Berberines effect on the blood lipid profile. The study gave subjects two 500mg doses a day of either Berberine or placebo for 3 months. Then they took them off for 2 months as a “wash out period”, then started up the treatment again for another 3 months. Results?

A decrease of body weight and BMI was observed after the run-in period. Berberine reduced total cholesterol, triglycerides and LDL cholesterol and increased HDL cholesterol after 3 months from randomization and compared with placebo. After the washout period, lipid profile worsened; afterward, when berberine was reintroduced, lipid profile improved again both compared with the washout period, and with placebo. (13)

They concluded it was effective and safe for low risk patients.

I know... You're all like "Holy shit, D... are there ANY downsides?!"

Dangers/sides of berberine?

Berberine has an extremely low toxicity – Yay!

Some gastrointestinal discomfort was found for a few patients in one of the studies above (I think (9)?). That was mitigated by dropping the dose to 300mgs 3 times daily instead of 500mgs. So you may experience cramping, diarrhea, or nausea. (I didn't, but you might)

I found these drug interactions in another article about sides and stacks that already did the research for me and cited said research in the article (14)

  • Berberine lowers blood sugar and can increase the effects of other drugs that perform the same task.

  • Berberine inhibits cytochromes CYP2D6, CYP2C9, and CYP3A4. These cytochromes are the targets of a large number of medications, so check that you're not taking something that targets one of those.

  • "Berberine has a powerful effect on anion transporter proteins in the cell membrane. A few medications use these transporters to access your cells and deliver their effects. One important medication is Metformin" (14)

  • Dangerous interaction with macrolide antibiotics. "The Berberine toxicity occurs at hERG channels in the heart. There is a potential for serious negative health effects in these interactions. (14)"

So don't mix it with any of those.

Also, webMD says don't give it to babies. So don't do that either. But really, you'd kind of be an asshole if you did anyway...

The one downside I can find is that it's bioavailability isn't super awesome. In fact it's the opposite of super awesome. In theory, if the bioavailability can be improved, maybe less can be taken and that would cut down on anyone experiencing gastrointestinal issues. BUT I found a way that should improve that too!

Improving bioavailability

While the studies dosed orally and it still worked, we can make it even better. Studies show that P-glycoprotein is a real cock-block when it comes to absorbing Berberine in the intestines, and that the use of a P-glycoprotien inhibitor increased absorption 6-fold in rats (15).

Problem solver? Milk Thistle! Studies show that milk thistle (silymarin) does a good job at inhibiting p-glycoprotein, therefore improving Berberine’s bioavailability. (16, 17)

They sell one Berberine supp on Amazon with silymarin (the active ingredient in milk thistle that does all the great things milk thistle is known for) already in it. But you can also just take it together with it if you have it around... which I'm sure a lot of you do.

Benefits of taking berberine instead of metformin?

A lot less possible sides, no known dangers for the kidney and it's cheaper. And legal. And OTC. No effect on Natural Test, or Free Test, or androgen receptors, or TSH... So there you have it.

But, will it perform as well for bodybuilding purposes?

Will it work for our purposes?

Ahhh the million dollar question... and the one that I did ZERO research on aside for trying it myself. In theory, yes. Unlike all of our other "tools", we use metformin at "normal" studied dosages. Berberine works just as well and extremely similarly to metformin in diabetics and normal people, so why not for bodybuilding purposes? Want to keep your muscles fuller during low carb dieting? Try berberine! GH use got your insulin sensitivity down? Try berberine! etc. etc.

I tried it for 2 months and I leaned out and had great pumps. That being said, I was also on 535mg of Test and 50mgs of Anavar at the time... so that would have happened anyway. But maybe it added to it? Not really a fair way to test it. I ordered more and will be giving it another go now that I'm off and will update this post with the results. In theory, I should be able to get a better pump, eat more carbs without gaining fat, or trim my waist a bit if I stick to normal carbs... just like one would report with metformin. Alas (Alas? Did I come over on the Mayflower?), only time will tell.

I will say that a couple times I didn't eat carbs in the morning while taking it on cycle. I felt a little hypo and it was fixed by taking in 30g of some simple carbs. Maybe in my head? Can't be 100% sure, but I'd like to think not.

Be a Guinea Pig with me!

I'd love for anyone interested to give this supplement a shot and report back with the details. Especially metformin guys, for an even better comparison! If you report back with your experience here or in a PM, I'll make sure to keep this updated with real world results (or lack there of). I'm sure there are varying qualities of this product out there on the market, and only the real shit will give us real answers, so go with a brand you trust!

I enjoyed putting this together. I hope you guys enjoyed reading it and found it informative. I know it was long and possibly boring to anyone that isn't me.

And I REALLY hope that I can update this in a couple months with some of your experiences in a final section to properly wrap it up. Maybe something good will come out of it.

Thanks to Makwa for encouraging me to write this. No homo.

Citations:

  1. WebMD - Drugs - Metformin HCL (http://www.webmd.com/drugs/2/drug-11285-7061/metformin-oral/metformin-or...)

  2. Combination therapy with insulin and metformin (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/15251717/)

  3. Glucophage (Metformin) and Diabetes (http://www.diabetes.co.uk/diabetes-medication/glucophage.html)

  4. Growth hormone replacement therapy induces insulin resistance by activating the glucose-fatty acid cycle (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/12679422/)

  5. Drugs.com - Metformin side effects (https://www.drugs.com/amp/sfx/metformin-side-effects.html)

  6. Effects of short term metformin administration on androgens in normal men.
    (http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=13918081)

  7. Metformin represses androgen-dependent and androgen-independent prostate cancers by targeting the androgen receptor.
    (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/25894097/)

  8. Wikipedia - Berberis Vulgaris (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berberis_vulgaris)

  9. Efficacy of Berberine in Patients with Type 2 Diabetes (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2410097/)

  10. Berberine lowers blood glucose in type 2 diabetes mellitus patients through increasing insulin receptor expression (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0026049509003163)

  11. Cardiovascular and metabolic effects of Berberine (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2999047/#!po=54.9180)

  12. Effect of Berberine Administration on Metabolic Syndrome, Insulin Sensitivity, and Insulin Secretion (http://online.liebertpub.com/doi/pdf/10.1089/met.2012.0183)

  13. Effects of berberine on lipid profile in subjects with low cardiovascular risk. (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/23441841/)

  14. Taking Berberine? Look out for these 3 sides and 3 great stacks! (https://liftmode.com/blog/berberine-side-effects/#_ftn4)

  15. The involvement of P-glycoprotein in berberine absorption (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/12530470/)

  16. Herbal modulation of P-glycoprotein (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/15072439/)

  17. Inhibition of P-glycoprotein by natural products in human breast cancer cells (https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2FBF02977349?LI=true)

Pale's picture

It is tough to start on and tough once you stop.

Commish's picture

Im sure your conclusion will be just as informative, when ever you get the chance to do so.
If I do ever supplement with it, I give you my word that I will share my experience (and questions thru out) with you.
If I could, I would most certainly have + your work here. Job well done Sir!

DfromPhilly's picture

Sweet I hope you do. And I’m definitely here if you have any questions just shoot me a pm or whatever.

And thanks again man. Glad people are finding this helpful.

kibby's picture

I would love to hear your conclusion on this bro.

It's very rare a post will grab my attention from start to finish but this I've read multiple times....

Keep em coming D!!!

Owes a Review × 1
shawn0712's picture

Can’t believe I just read this one in its entirety.
Great research and write up.

Jayzgainz's picture

Nice write up. Im doing research on improving my insulin sensitivity in general and came across this. I think in my case I should be able to make some dietary changes to help but definitely saving this for future reference

Owes a Review × 1 In a promo × 1
DfromPhilly's picture

Thanks man. Let me know how you like it if you do end up using it. It’s been great for me but seems to be too strong for some. Pale got heartburn from it too. But he’s the only one that reported that I think.

I think this can be a game changer for some. Nothing magic obviously but a great tool to have in your box. Lots of other benefits too.

kibby's picture

Just a word of caution bro. When I started mine I was getting a bit shaky and light headed. Then a member recommended it should be taken with carbs so I was having my carb shake with it....this worked for a while then I started to feel the same symptoms so I dropped it completely
I think it's just something that doesn't agree with me bro

Owes a Review × 1
giardap's picture

Did you get that glucose monitor in the end kibby? Ibthink they are still belting them out free

kibby's picture

No mate.......i didn't get one in the end. I did get tested at Lloyds pharmacy tho and my levels were fine.
Both times 4 hours fasted,morning and evening

Owes a Review × 1
DfromPhilly's picture

I’ve beem swamped at work and haven’t had the time to be as active as I like to be on here recently, but I wanted to check in with everyone on this. How did everyone like this supplement? I for one am still using it. It has become a staple for me.

One of these days I’ll write up that conclusion. As soon as I clear up and have the time.

XmadXscientist's picture

Did you get any testing done to see what effects it had on you FBS?

DfromPhilly's picture

I suck. I’ve had blood drawn 3 times since I started and always forget not to eat. That being said I always eat the same thing on weekday mornings and get blood around he same time, and average about 8 points lower

Makwa's picture

You definitely put a lot of work into this. I like using IGF-lr3 to help with insulin sensitivity on cycle or even a slight mini-cut during a bulk. I might have to try this for those off-cycle periods.

DfromPhilly's picture

Thanks brother. Keep me posted if you do. Might at least add a layer of interest to off time (not that you need it)

Carlos Danger's picture

Marked for later. Love the effort you put into this. Love all the links bro.

In a promo × 1
DfromPhilly's picture

Thanks boss. I should have a final section of real world results for our purposes by the end of November. Been gathering everyone’s feedback and it seems most people are finding it pretty effective. If you try it out I’d love to know how it goes, even if it’s a year from now

DfromPhilly's picture

And I’m glad you dig the links. I feel like it was worth the extra effort so no one can claim I’m oulling something out of my ass lol. I tried to put only facts in here, just worded how I actually talk and not like I’m going for my PhD lol

DfromPhilly's picture

It's getting around that time where I think I can start putting together the wrap up section to have up by the end of next month.

Can anyone that's been fucking around with this shoot me your final thoughts in the next week or two? I can always add to it if you miss the boat, but I'd like for it to be as accurate as it can be.

DfromPhilly's picture

Some guys have been asking what brands we're all using. I asked Pale and he said it was cool.

I don't want this turning into an ad for supp companies, and if a supp company finds this thread and posts some bullshit, or someone posts on behalf of one, I will not stop until they're in the negative 20's.

That being said...

I've been going through Amazon. I didn't think "Amazing Nutrition" was very amazing. I've been using "EzyAbsorb" and I'm happy with it. I think that's what I'm sticking with.

Dacky's picture

Good State - Glyco-X 500 available on Amazon. It’s got added Banaba Leaf extract. I think it’s very effective.

DfromPhilly's picture

That's definitely going to be my next Berberine purchase. Quite a few guys using Good State that are digging it, and I like the banaba addition. You taking Milk Thistle along side it? Or has it been effective without the absorbtion help?

Also, if you can shoot me some quick thoughts on how it's working out for you that I can use while putting together the final section of this write up, I'd truly appreciate it.

Dacky's picture

Been fine for me fella. Have to have 20/30g of carbs with it or I get hypo. Had a few experiences when I took a cap with 30g of vitargo post workout and then about an hour later after 20mins of fast walking went full blown hypo and had to get another 30g of fast carbs in to stop the feeling. Only ever got that feeling dosing metformin 500mg, GH and IGF-1 DES and not having enough carbs.

DfromPhilly's picture

Nice. Thanks man. That speaks volumes.

Nattyboomba's picture

I got mine from LiftMode. They have a solid rep for consistant supps, in both pill and powder form. I'd never used them for anything before this, and with no other use of berberine to compare, this SEEMS like a good product. I made the HUGE error of buying loose powder to save money because I had no experience with that next-level bitterness it brings. But....I capsuled it up and it's palatable-ish......

I've been taking it for many weeks, and although my results are skewed by my current cycle, at 500 mg (give or take 25mg from capping them myself) twice a day has seemed to lead to excellerated fat loss, and it seems the dose I'm taking is enough so I feel a bit hypo if I haven't consumed enough carbs during the meal I take it with, but if I eat at least 50g I'm good.

DfromPhilly's picture

Nice. thanks for the feed back. Are you at 500 x3, x2, once a day or just with big carb meals?

Nattyboomba's picture

I've been running it twice a day at 500 mg, and I always put a mix of both high and low glyciemic carbs when I take it, to keep my from going hypo but also because I'm on the move a lot and need the heavy dose of complex carbs to keep me cracking for the next few hours. So, I guess I always take it with a heavy carb load but it's really a product of time management, not necessity

giardap's picture

Goodstate Health Solutions - only 400mg capsule though so pain to split it if more is needed
its very effective for sure, but I think I could possibly do with more per dose
That said I would still buy it again as it is very effective

DfromPhilly's picture

Nice. If you're happy with the brand I may give them a shot too. hell, if 400 delivers the same results, why take more than you need to? I'd be interested to compare 400 to 500. They also sell something called Glyco-X which has banaba leaf in it. I ran across that in my research (along with bitter melon and gymnemma) and it seemed to have some decent backup. Maybe I'll give that a go one of these days.

Geo's picture

That's the one I grabed, glyco-X 500, started using it little over a week ago 3 x 500.
I usually eat a high carb meal (120+ gr) post workout then sit on a couch and can barely keep my eyes open. My wife is the one who pointed out to me the fact that was wide awake after my high carb meals all last week.

DfromPhilly's picture

Nice. Maybe I'll give that one a shot before I settle into the brand I have now. We have your experience and giardaps clear blood glucose being effected by that brand. I'd say that's proven enough to be trusted for what it is. Price point is good too.

kibby's picture

My bp is also higher than normal bro....I'm keeping a close eye on things if it creeps up I'm afraid it's getting binned

Owes a Review × 1
kibby's picture

Sorry for late reply rusty ;)

No not on tren mate...if I'm totally honest I think I'm neglecting my water intake. Also I usually drink a full glass of beetroot juice and take garlic capsules daily and I haven't for a few weeks (I've had a lot on lately).

My bp is not super high it's just not within my normal range. Tbh it's higher than when on cycle so I'm guessing it's just water ect

Owes a Review × 1
DfromPhilly's picture

interesting. will definitely note that. Were you on long enough to notice anything positive?

DfromPhilly's picture

agreed & important to note. thanks brother

Geo's picture

Anyone come up with a good brand to use?

giardap's picture

Im confident in the one i used. I gottem off amazon uk 400mg capsules. Think they are an American brand... Goodstate Health Solutions

But you might want a 500mg brand

giardap's picture

Ok so this somewhat flawed as a test but still the results are undeniable as far as I am concerned.

Friday no berb.
Sat am fasted blood glucose = 5.5mmol/L
Glucose test of 75g vitargo plus oats w/milk (porridge) (flawed as not pure glucose test but slightly closer to bodybuilder carb use in reality). 3 hours later (should have measured at 2 hrs but got caught in traffic) = 5.9 mmol

Sat night had a pizza/beers with the Mrs.
Sun am fasted (9 hrs) blood glucose = 6.4 mmol (if that isnt proof beer/pizza will cause problems i dunno what is)
Took 75g vitargo plus bowl of oats with milk with 400mg single Berberine capsule
2 hours later blood glucose = 4.9mmol/L (not hypo but needed to eat)

I think there are clear applications for both bodybuilding diets and general health but will move forward to test berb with big carb meals daily and maybe do blood test after 2-4 weeks

DfromPhilly's picture

Outstanding! This feedback is priceless man. Thank you! Definitely something positive happening there in a strong way.

giardap's picture

Totally. You will need a new write up after all this, and all the other lads data to share results!! I mean this clearly even applies to PCT /post blast too with the likes of tren etc.
Well done to you and thanks also as its definitely somethibg valuable for me personally. Just need to dial it in now.

Thanks again man, real world stuff from you right here

DfromPhilly's picture

Yea my original plan was to add a section to the bottom of this after I gather the feedback and everyone had given it a good run. Should have a good clip some time between Halloween and Christmas.

I guess I’ll play it by ear. Would be nice to have it all here in a final conclusion/results section, but it may get long and this is already a doosey lol.

giardap's picture

Tiny update from me

400mg pills, 3 times a day = 2 hours post prandial level of 6.7mmol - this is down from 1 week previously seeing a 2hr pp level of 10.1 (which is the sort of reason why I got the monitor, at 2hrs shouldnt be that high so im glad to be exploring ways of getting it down). Either way, close to a 4mmol drop is significant to me

Ate a 100g of carbs meal with protein last night, 30 mins post meal I measured blood glucose at 6.9mmol, I then took 800mgs Berb to test, very light jog home, 20 mins nothing odd, began a hypo at the 1.5 hours postprandial - measured bloods and was 3.9 iirc

Top Tip - Do not take 800mgs lol

I will do a fasted test when I can, prob the weekend, and then a glucose test of sorts but using vitargo at 100g's, see how we fare
Actually might benchmark it first
Sat do fasted levels, glucose test normal after take berb all day, 3x400mg
sun do same but take a 400 with the glucose and measure 1 hr and 2hrs

I'll update when I can but the glucose lowering affect is absolutely evident

giardap's picture

Yeah dude, it's a must. I didn't have anything when that hypo hit, and had to hold off until I got home to do the blood test too so it was rough enough. I have a sneaky bounty bar in my backpack now, yum yum! lol

kibby's picture

I was using a carb/casein shake but I've found lucazade is working faster and better for me plus seems to hold any dizziness off for longer

EDIT: are we allowed to discuss what brands everyone is using??

Owes a Review × 1
Faz's picture

X2
I've got some berberine off of ebay but it would be good to know who is getting what from where?