posted Sat, 06/03/2017 - 14:04
3854
Does nolva reduce the effectiveness of adex?
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Taking nolva for a flare up and adex is my ai, does nolva reduce the effectiveness of the adex?
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Reduces plasma levels of adex, but not pharmacokinetics, therefore to achieve the same non-combination effects of adex, you must only increase the dose (by 30% might be a point to start but who knows). The same does not happen in reverse; Nolv is not effected by AI's.
However, using an AI and a SERM in combination is idiotic, unless you hate erections and feeling good that is, of course.
Lads, does nobody know how to do basic research?
throw this into Google:
"Pharmacokinetics of" (anastrozole OR arimidex) (nolvadex OR tamoxifen) (e2 OR Estradiol) (oestrogen OR estrogen) combination -letrozole -aromasin -exemestane
Pharmacokinetics - tells you about how a substance works in the body
Arimidex vs. Anastrozole = Trademark/Brand name versus substance name, know the difference when searching
for basic research learn how to do a 'boolean search' for terms and keyworkds (like combination / efficacy / pharmacokinetics etc.)
Search Google, Google Scholar, Pub Med, or if you have access or know a current student/academic, try get access to an institutional org (university/college etc.) via Athens etc.
Thanks for the info brother! Now what about nolva being less effective when taking an SSRI? I thought I read something about that and I take an SSRI
Personally I never noticed a difference. BUT, that is wholly anecdotal based on my own personal experience, and not something I measured.
Although, I did have bloods post PCT that showed full recovery
Don't take that as advice though, you know how difficult it is to actually dial an ssri in, (can be worse than playing with estro!), so you really should do your research on the specific compounds involved, see if you can find ANYTHING on dosages that are comparable. There must be a chunk of female info out there as I'd imagine a chunk of women with cancers would need ssri's
Use the research principals and let us know what you find. In fact it'd make a post worthy of being a sticky I think, given how valuable that sort of research would be.
Yes, it does. Use aromasin.
Do NOT use armonasin with Nolv.
-1
I've always read the opposite. What's the reasoning behind this?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16361559
http://clincancerres.aacrjournals.org/content/11/24/8722
The reason the ai for PCT (if you're going to use one) is aromasin @ 6.25mg is because the two drugs don't negatively interact with each other, and the obvious less chance for rebound and lack of negative cholesterol impact.
Also why if you're going to use both AI and SERM that aromasin is the better choice.
And because nolva effects the amount of plazma levels of anastrozole (as you've correctly stated)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2364083/pdf/85-6691925a.pdf
I also don't understand you saying that it's retarted to use an ai and serm at the same time. The AI controls the amount of estrogen, the SERM effects what the estrogen binds too. Combining the two isn't bad if you don't over do your AI. But it's bad to overdo your AI regardless of a SERM or no SERM. you know? SERMS don't kill e2, nor do they effect libido (at least mine).
Unless I've missed something huge in my research, you should un-neg the guy. He's correct (if you're going to combine AI and SERM that is).
Well, the answer is in your links brother. These studies are called estrogen deprivation studies, it's all in the name! Quote from the first article: " estradiol concentrations consistently decreased below the limit of quantitation "
Yours: http://clincancerres.aacrjournals.org/content/11/24/8722
Another: http://clincancerres.aacrjournals.org/content/10/6/1943.full
Basically the combo (at certain doses) takes estrogen to undetectable limits, in other words, in men in particular with already low levels of estro, it crashes estrogen. Anecdotally, once you do it, you know all about it, it is hell. I did it recently myself, playing with both compounds, only took 1-2 days on 20mg tamox and 20 per day of aromasin. Yes not the 6.25, however even at that, no one size fits all and we do see hyper-responders about eroids..
The point is, they dont negatively impact but positively compound effects on all estro's. The wording of the article is slightly misleading, in the sense that it talks about no additive effect, but shows both drugs still operate as they normally would on the given level of estro at the time. However for all intents and purpose, it is a compounding effect on estro.
Then.... on top of this..... If you look to the OP's previous forums, you will see the fun he has had trying to dial Adex in, then people start telling him to use A'sin on pct... recipe for disaster for someone unskilled with dialing in an ai, let alone a different ai that requires less frequent dosing, and again let alone a different ai in combo with with a SERM which will have a compounding effect.
When I said idiotic, it may come across as harsh, so let me be a little more clear on using an ai and a SERM together... it is retarded for anyone to suggest to a lad who is having serious issues in managing his hormones to use the combo, particularly when one is a new compound altogether to him. It doesn't even qualify as Bro Science, just nonsense. For a very experienced user, to play with estro can be a great thing, in my opinion estro is the biggy for AAS users.
The neg stands, it was really bad advice, pretty much guaranteed to fcuk the fella up again..
I got ya. That at least makes sense and I totally get where you're coming from.
But to be clear, the nolva didn't contribute to crashing the e2. It doesn't have the ability to. It doesn't/can't lower e2. That was all the AI. Nolva is there because those studies are treatments in women, and the nolva was already being used to block the e2 at the desired receptors.
The two studies I posted were simply showing that exemestane isn't effected by nolva, where adex is (lowered plasma concentrations, requiring you to need a little more, which you already pointed out).
But yes, that's actually great advice specific to this guy, that throwing in/changing compounds isn't the best choice when he is having trouble dialing in the adex to begin with.
That being said, some people have a harder time dialing in adex, then they do aromasin. So it may not be a bad idea to try aromasin instead next time, as it's shorter half life may make it easier to adjust on feel and double check by bloodwork (if he's comfortable by then to use this experience to learn what that "feel" is). Plus by then he'll know what his adex dose should be and how he aromatizes, which would give him a better idea of where to start with aro. BUT I'm getting way ahead of myself.
You are correct in that advising the OP to add/switch compounds is probably not the best move. I get what you're saying now.
EDIT: and I was not suggesting he use asin in PCT, I was simply pointing out why it is typically the recommended AI for PCT if one chooses to go that route. If the OP is reading this please don't take my post debating the pharmacokinetics of compounds for advice on what to do in your situation.
I hear you man.
I agree 100% on aromasin. Its shorter lifecycle is best for making adjustments, in my opinion. Its my ai of choice having had hassle dialing in Adex on cycle pretty much all the time!
Re: adex, you dont actually need more. I read that way when I first read that journal too but if you reread the last link you posted (i think you removed), it shows that yes plasma goes down but no its efficacy is not impaired.
I left the link in my post above but took it out of the reply to OP because I didn't want it misinterpreted as advice. But yea, I re-read it and that's crazy. No effect on overall efficacy at all. Totally misread the final outcome.
I did first time around too brother, nuts
Peace
Have any evidence of this, the medical journals I came across on it I posted below
Edited so it's not mistaken for advice.
If you look to figure 1 in the discussion, you can see that trial proves that nolvadex does not effect the efficacy of Adex. There is a difference between decreasing plasma concentrations and efficacy / results on estro.
This study is evidence of that. It should have been -2 for emperort. It is also proof that adding Adeex to a Nolv PCT also crushes estrogen to undetectable limits.
Agreed... I think. Doesn't decrease efficacy of the drug one bit. As in the efficacy of what's left in blood plasma concentration. But by decreasing plasma levels by 30%, wouldn't you then need to compensate a bit by taking a little more for the same result? Maybe I need to reread it?
And yea I'd never use adex to PCT. I mean I think it's all dose dependent but I wouldn't take the chance.
Thats exactly what I thought first time I read that journo, but if you re-read:
Levels "for the ratio of 3-month values to baseline values were 0.174 for anastrozole alone and 0.169 for anastrozole plus tamoxifen, indicating that percentage suppression was 82.6 and 83.1%, respectively. "
Weird I know.... but i think its to do with how adex is metabolised rather than its effects?!
What you make of it?
I see the figure you're talking about and re-read the study. Crazy. Decreased plasma levels of the adex, but plasma e2 was a hair lower than adex alone, where as with nolva alone e2 was raised a hair (as expected).
Its nuts, but it isnt helped by ther wording of the study, the wording makes it seem ambiguous at best
Agreed. But I still misread in the end, and have thought the wrong way about this way for at least a year. +1 for helping me see it. have a good one, boss
You too fella, respect
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NotNatural23It says it might reduce its effectiveness. So u might need to bump up Arimidex if u notice your estro getting higher.
NotNatural23Should have explained better. The study shows it affects the effectiveness of arimidex but overall E2 suppression wasn't changed.
Ya obv we don't take the drug like women do for breast cancer I just wanna make sure that it won't lower the e2 suppression nature of arimidex, which studies shows it doesn't so that's good
Just read this from another board so I feel good about taking the two together
clearly states that anastrazole has NO effect on tamoxifen, where it states:
"...In conclusion, the results of this study confirm that anastrozole does not affect the pharmacokinetics of tamoxifen when the two drugs are given in combination to post-menopausal women with early breast cancer. In addition, the oestradiol suppressant effects of anastrozole appear unaffected by tamoxifen. © 1999 Cancer Research Campaign"
also:
"... As a result of (a) the lack of effect of anastrozole on tamoxifen and DMT levels and (B) the observed fall in blood anastrozole levels having no significant effect on oestradiol suppression by anastrozole, we conclude that the observed reduction in anastrozole levels by tamoxifen is unlikely to be of clinical significance when anastrozole and tamoxifen are administered together."
NotNatural23The ones I read were on WebMd and a other from a more current research article There are a few different ones But as long as you aren't taking crazy amounts u should be fine. But it is most likely not have a big affect on it at all. I mean the Nolva is gonna block estro to the chest so gyno should be no problem especially running with arimidex plus Nolva helps with Hdl and LDL where other AI actually can affect cholesterol. There is only one major drug interaction with arimidex n u probably don't take it.
Wtf I can't even get my dose dialed in and. One I have to think about whether or not the nolva makes the adex not work all the way
NotNatural23other then that there should be no major problems that I have read about.
Im not an expert on adex but im gonna say no. I don't see why Nolvadex would reduce the effects of the adex.
I take it with aromasin and it has no effect on my estro going up
Ok thank you brother