-1 Stupid Simple first cycle
*** Go read the Studies before you down vote me for no reason - Change my mind if you disagree ***
I know there are other guides posted here that cover first cycles but I disagree with some of the info posted, Instead of replying with a laundry list of complains shitting on someone else's work I figured I would just write a guide and explain why I this simple cycle is a good place to start.
So firstly should you do your first cycle?
it's a personal choice, I cant answer that but before you do go get blood work done there are a number of places you can get them done costs like $60 (in the US anyway) well worth it to check health markers.
So my bloodwork looks good, Im a health young adult and ready to start.
Ok. The main compound we will be looking at is Test E (Testosterone Enanthate) or Test C (Testosterone Cypionate) They are for all intensive purposes essentially the same thing, pick one.
Your first cycle is probably going to yield your best results, for this reason and the fact that we are running a lowish dose of Test I suggest going a little longer than most 15-20 weeks That will be exactly 3 or 4 vials of 250mg/ml test pinned 2x per week at 250mg per dose.
AI (aromatase inhibitor)
Do I need an AI?
Probably not but just keep one on hand incase, I suggest getting enough Arimidex to take 1mg EOD if needed.
you can take it if you notice sides or better yet I suggest getting more bloodwork done and knowing for sure...
I advise against taking it preemptively! you will crash your E2 into the ground for no fucking reason, Low E2 sides are A LOT worse than Higher E2.
SERMS for PCT and Gyno
I suggest having Raloxifene or Nolvadex or better yet get both, The reason is that Raloxifene is better for Gyno flair up and Nolvadex is better for PCT...
Nolvadex and Arimidex also dont play well together and the nolvadex will drop the blood level of your Arimidex. read more https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2362190/
for PCT taking the "normal" dosages recommended isn't going to produce any greater results the results at 10mg are the same at 40mg where test production is concerned, it's just going to increase sides, there is no need to frontload Nolva.
PCT should start 5 halflives after your last shot, for Enanthate it's 4.5Days x5 = 22.5 Days (or 3 weeks) You can start PCT earlier but it's probably doing fuck all for you until the test clears your system and stops suppressing your HPTA.
multiple Studies have all come to the same conclusion:
1mg and 5mg per day and found the two lower doses are just as effective as the previous standard of 20mg per day or more.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4053157/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17709798/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12783932/
Orals
I suggest just doing test by it's self, Its fucking strong stuff and there really isnt a need to start stacking shit on your first cycle...
If you MUST have something do a small dose of Anavar (if you know it's legit, its expensive) or Winstrol they are both dry compounds that wont further fuck with your E2.... research that separately I suggest against it.
Cycle support
Especially if you are doing orals you want to add a solid support regimen.
I suggest adding these in, they are cheap...
TUDCA
NAC
Milk thistle
Fish Oil
HCG (Human Chorionic Gonadotrophin)
I suggest running a low dose throughout, it will keep your balls working and speed up recovery, its cheap so why not?
You can run 250iu EOD though your cycle, stop taking before PCT.
https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/90/5/2595/2836735?
"In a study published in 2005 in The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism, Andrea D. Coviello, MD, a reproductive endocrinologist and practicing clinician and researcher at Boston University School of Medicine, and colleagues analyzed data from 29 men with normal reproductive physiology randomly assigned to 200 mg testosterone enanthate weekly in combination with saline placebo or 125 IU, 250 IU or 500 IU hCG every other day for 3 weeks. The researchers found that intratesticular testosterone increased linearly with increasing hCG dose, demonstrating that a relatively low dose of hCG maintains intratesticular testosterone within the normal range in healthy men with gonadotropin suppression, Lipshultz said."
Diet
Your Diet is probably the most important part, Make sure you are eating clean food at around 30% over your TDEE, Im not going to go into detail here if you cant figure that out you shouldn't be thinking about PED's
Training and Rest
Obviously you need to need to train hard, but you need to rest hard as well put the effort in at the gym eat well and sleep well, you will grow remember even though your recovery is going to be MUCH faster than when not on PED's your CNS will still take a beating and need rest to recover, dont go balls to the wall 7 days a week and then wonder why you feel like shit and are not growing. Instead do 4/5 days a week and make sure you are getting some cardio in, it's not going to hinder your gains and its benefits to your health are massive, Just do it.
So putting all that together:
The protocol is as follows assuming 4 Vials of Test E
Week 1 - 20 - 250mg(1ml) of Test E twice a week (Sunday/Wednesday)
Week 1 - 20 - 250iu HCG EOD
Week 1 - 20 - 0.5mg - 1mg Arimidex (Get bloodwork done to dial this in)
Week 24 - 30-32 10mg Nolvadex ED
After your Last pin of Test we need to wait for it to clear your system to stop suppressing your HPTA, this will take about 5 Half-lives.
Test E has a half live of 4.5 Days so 4.5Days x5 = 22.5 Days (or 3 weeks) 10 mg of nolvadex is just as good as 40mg without the sides, and there is no reason to frontload the Nolvadex.
If you encounter Gyno symptoms up your AI slightly and take your SERM (suggest the Raloxifene for Gyno flair up and Nolva for PCT) if you use Nolva for Gyno and Arimidex keep in mind the nolva will lower your Arimidex blood levels.
Raloxifene at 60mg per day or Nolvadex at 20mg per day for 1-2 weeks until the symptoms subside, once they do continue the Raloxifene/Nolvadex for another few days.
TLDR:
Get bloodwork... Before, During and After!
Get 4 Vials of Test E (500mg/week x 20 weeks)
Get enough Arimidex to take 1mg EOD if needed
Get Raloxifene or Nolvadex I suggest getting both.
Get enough HCG to run 250iu EOD during cycle (optional)
Forget Orals you dont need them
Take support: TUDCA, NAC , Milk thistle and Fish Oil
Eat Clean food over your TDEE
Train Hard and do your cardio!
Get lots of Quality sleep.
Get bloodwork, I cant stress this enough... Make sure to have enough of your AI and SERM on hand BEFORE you start pinning, it's better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it, these "extra things" are cheap and not negotiable in my mind, don't take stupid risks with your health stay safe!
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AnonInteresting, in here, at least when it comes to Nolva dosing you guys had the same conclusion
https://www.reddit.com/r/steroids/wiki/draft/#wiki_aromatase_inhibitors....
AnonYou seem to be taking some hits on this, but good job and upvote from me. I appreciate the independent thought and easily understood supporting statements.
Nothing worse than a 'link poster.' Not even going to take the time to read all the drama below.
Thanks for the read.
Give them a vote if you find it helpful.
PermalinkRustyhookerSumming it up...
5months cycle and a hard shutdown
Weak pct so you lose your muscle gains, struggle with emotional fluctuations and then need to stare at trt possibility
Hgh thruout so you again desensitize your recovery by negative feedback loops. The leydig cells are non-responsive and again as in weak pct, loss of gains, no recovery etc
Basically your advice is a welcome to TRT first timers cycle. Great times! sarcasm thickens
You are still touting the same misnomers and cant provide any SCIENTIFIC evidence to counter mine. Your summary shows how closed minded you are, thanks for stopping by and I welcome you to stop back when you have done a little research and updated your view.
The ONLY thing you linked me was your post filled with info people going off old timers and bioscience.
To sum up...
I have provided links to studies and logical reasoning to each of rustys hanging points.
Rusty provided me a link to a PCT that was taken from a 13+ year old book of "dr" who was fined and had his license revoked for malpractice.
Basically you have no counter argument past what you think is right... and less of a desire to learn something or even look into what I am saying.
RustyhookerIve got no doubt some yolo kid will try your mess and head right into pct
I lost you in the intro... test and.... please educate me?
It's a pretty simple test cycle. breakdown is at the end.
I went back and read all the way through, mostly as I have made a crack about movie time below, but I get your hard work and effort, and it would be a good debate piece for people who have knowledge, but IMO, not a lot of people who actually 'need' advice will go that distance, sadly. Your breakdowns of half lives, quantities required, etc., they are good, but I am a bit with the questioning HCG from the rip? I think the 'cheap so why not' is the part I was not sold on.
I don't think that butting heads with an established members is going to get you far, you stated your opinion, he stated his, and the thread becomes a bit of a movie the more it is clouded by arguing. I probably think that Milk Thistle or Live-52 is enough, coupled with a good quality fish oil, but the TUDCA is simply a more pricey liver protection method, just IMO again.
If this were a d-bol and 19-nor cycle, finishing with a tren/winstrol then I would say, yes, throw in the kitchen sink on liver protection, but remember that these 'protectors' can also be overdone and have their own adverse effect, not to mention receptor interactions that can actually hinder a cycle.
I only throw this in to say that I have read through your post, that is all. Whether I agree with you or not an insult, so don't let these opposing opinions lead you to say inflammatory things. It is a good write up, no questioning that and I feel that you put your heart into it. Once again, I just put this comment to tell you that I did read it, and I appreciate the work. I don't agree with all of it, but I don't feel you are going to lead anyone to a tragic death or enlarged heart valve, so kudos for the input. I still say it is popcorn time when you jump on an old schooler, but I am guessing you have thick enough skin.
Thank you for your levelheaded logical post, I don't want to butt heads with anyone and not looking to step on toes.
A logical counter argument without insult was openly invited but I didn't receive anything but insults from the get go, I wont sit back and take it when I feel I am not wrong no matter how long that person has been around...
I'll go as far as to say It felt like I should just delete my account and go find another forum to join... not much of a community feeling on that front.
I've been there, and it is not a good feeling, kinda' what I'm hoping to give you a nudge away from. Try the AA aproach, take what you can use, leave what you can't and criticism will go down better. I read some support for you in this and I did read every post before jumping in. There is a good community here, stick it out and ride it along. Today's page 1 is tomorrow's page 20. Remember that half of us are hormonal anyhow and probably in rage at our shadow on occasion.... balance it with that. Keep on participating and sharing.
all but one person I have encountered so far have been fantastic, its the reason Im still here
RustyhookerFew years ago when folks with GURU or PRO tags were active members....this post woulda been neg 60 and the op would have a troll tag by now.
Nowadays he gained 4mo worth of karma for point card jabs. Lol!
I enjoy a good debate. Besides, if we don't ever let someone challenge how we think and what we know, we would never get any better...We would all still be thinking the earth is flat.
Rustyhooker+2 . Unfortunatly the commons here is folks state they like a debate but then offer no links, evidence or theories. Posting that creates a real debate. Otherwise its just a soap opera.
In a real debate other members would jump in here with why they feel a 5mo first cycle is warranted
Or how youre gonna recover from a 5mo cycle on one tab of nolvadex per day.
But that didnt happen. Because is a poor excuse for a first cycle. Poor ideals on recovery.
Alls going on in here is a point card. +1 karma for each jab. Buddy bumping karma like skittles. Pass the popcorn...lol
I did run across this while researching testosterone with HCG.
https://themenshealthclinic.co.uk/the-benefits-of-using-hcg-with-trt/
RustyhookerAfter some newb runs that 5mo cycle then they can add that hcg in their TRT as it states. Cycles and recovery are very different from staying fertile on trt.
you still have zero concept on how these compounds even work...
Time to get the popcorn! Front row seats, or maybe I'll sit near the back and exit doors.
it's a hellevalot easier to reboot your system after one longer cycle than jumping back on after not having done a real PCT (like you suggest) only having waited time-on+PCT which is BS it takes MONTHS maybe YEARS for your HPTA to fully recover bro...
So yeah do a longer cycle and then dont just jump back on... otherwise you may as well just bast and cruise.
I like a good, clean, well sourced debate too.
Instead of calling something dogshit how about talking like an adult and educate?
Jumping in here.... choose life, rainbow dreams, black lives matter...... herummmm'
LMAO
agree, I am always open to talk it out, if i'm right then I helped others, If Im wrong I learn something win win.
As below... I treat is as a carb reload, protein boost, amino acid (make me puke) day... but treat,]... cheating implies dishonesty, Treat implies benefit and this is what this is all about.... benefit.
RustyhookerRefeed days sound fun til it hits bottom. Lol!!
Like 'cheat day' I call 'treat day'... does not mean one will cheat, just take advantage of opportunity. Rusty, I need all the support I can get these net 13-weeks,,,,, got to lose 4-inches of belly Lee Priest Style with the body of.....me
RustyhookerSo you need help? Post a forum.....or post a picture.
RustyhookerTrue. My bad.
10mg of Nolva for a PCT. The TRT clinics are going to thank you for all the business.
check the studies bro the data doesn't lie, 10mg or 40mg its the same result...
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4053157/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17709798/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12783932/
Why take more if it doesn't help you?
Isn’t NIH tha same organization that said Covid shots were ‘safe and effective?” I wouldn’t trust them far as I can throw them. GTFOH
RustyhookerWhere does pre menopause women equate men on steroids? Women dont use pct....
Trt and nolva is not a first time cycle user. Fertility after trt is not recovery. Trt is a brokrn sustem
Do you even understand how the drug works?
this comment proves you know nothing about what you are pushing, sorry dude...
RustyhookerIn men? Or gonna cite more female studies?
Lmao
you are on your own level...
RustyhookerBasic fact....if forum is good then those karmas would be rolling in....
crickets
just because it isn't getting huge attention from anyone but the brick wall doesn't make it wrong... still proving to be a your own level bro.
history will show you that people tend to want to stick to the way they have been doing things rather than change even if there is clearly a better way...
basskiller88Do you even lift lol
Good one bro, Read my replies where I linked the studies and read those then come back
basskiller88Didn’t mean to make you fluster bud lol guess it went over your head
AnonToo long for a first cycle.
12 weeks tops is long enough for 500mg a week of Test C or Test E for a first cycle.
HCG from the start makes ZERO sense because suppression will not start from first pin of that long ester Test, and the HCG will also throw off on cycle blood results for determining if an AI is needed because it raises E levels. The dosage of HCG I also disagree with, I would run 250iu's twice a week or every 3 days the last 4 or 5 weeks of the cycle and then all the way up until starting PCT...that'd be more than enough HCG for me on this little cycle and it wouldn't skyrocket my E. But if it did skyrocket my E I would take the Nolva without upping my Adex to block the receptors because I have done that and it does work for me. I can take Nolva and Adex at the same time no problem, in fact I always did when going into my PCT because I tapered my Adex dosage down slowly the first 2 weeks into my PCT to prevent estro rebound which can happen from stopping Adex cold turkey.
Not gonna neg the post. You do know some shit, I will give you that, new guy. So stick around, share your thoughts, research in the Eroid forums. And Update your profile stats please.
12 weeks isn't a bad time frame but IMO you may as well use u the last of the vial you have and go 15weeks Not sure why you say 12 is tops? if your health markers look good an extra 3 weeks isn't going to make a huge difference.
There are a few popular schools of thought when it comes to HCG, personally and as I put in the post I dont think its really needed at all anyway.
The blood level thing here is the link to on of the studies:https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2362190/
I cant speak on your case but maybe you were fine and it didn't have the same effect, I dont know.
I going off studies and newer outlooks off of info that other people have found from relevant studies, I am very open to discuss and even change what I have posted. I just noticed some things I didn't agree from other posts like a 4week PCT starting the week after last pin.... That kind of thing isn't going to do anything when most of the PCT is still being done when you have test in your system blocking your HPTA.
AnonI am speaking mostly from personal experience. I admit that. This is anecdotal.
In "my" past personal experience it was easier to PCT and bounce back from a 12 week Test cycle than it was if I pushed the cycle longer, such as 15 or 18 weeks. Also gains tend to slow or even halt in some cases after a while...and I will up my dosage and/or add another compound, or course doing this is not recommended for beginners or first cycles. So that's my reasoning for keeping the first cycle short and sweet.
Agree on HCG and the multiple schools of thought. It is very induvial imo as to how much HCG is needed and how well one will respond to HCG. Personally, and anecdotal of course, I can take HCG as needed regardless of what I am running and increase my balls and load size. And that's how I run it. I run some when I need some. I've never had to run HCG at very high dosages or for very long to get the desired results.
I'm all for new info and welcome it. This is what this forum is for bro
You are not wrong that its harder ofc BUT most people aren't waiting long enough before starting PCT the steroids need to have fully cleared before your PCT will work, and ofc if you shut down for longer you will probably have to PCT for longer and rest longer. Like I mentioned elsewhere there is data showing that HPTA doesn't fully recover for WAAAY longer than most people think (months maybe years), With that said think to yourself what you are doing if you follow the "recommended" length on + PCT and not allow your HPTA to fully recover.
I believe one of the people I mentioned who came off blasting and cruising had to PCT for MONTHS and his HPTA didn't fully recover to normal levels until much later it did though. (fully anecdotal and shouldn't be expected)
So run the longer first cycle, get the gains and allow your HPTA to FULLY recover before you jump back on, if you dont you might even be better off just cruising instead of PCT it's likely far less stress on your system...
You are correct with the HCG, for sure there are different schools of thought with this, the dose listed should keep you right at baseline serum levels keeping your Leydig cells active and minimizing atrophy which is part of why PCT can be difficult in the first place.
Way off the mark here I'm afraid - 15 to 20 weeks is ridiculous to suggest to a complete beginner as a first cycle. 8 to 10 weeks on 500mg Test is the best way forward. Running double that amount of time increases the risk of them damaging their endocrine system. Let them feel their feet on a shorter cycle first and then its up to them where they go from there. Did you seriously think this would go down well when you wrote this?
8-10 weeks just isn't really quite long enough, 12-15 is pretty good in my opinion if you are shutting your self down and risking your health you may as well get a decent result out of it but, running any AAS is risk to your health but if you use a lower dose keep an eye on things with regular bloodwork and manage your health while you are on IMHO its far better than jumping on and off short subpar cycles and yoyo your bodies systems on and off cycles to get the same end result.
I do see where you are coming from, But I just do not feel comfortable saying to someone that has never tried steroids before to stay on for up to 4 months and wouldn't like to see anyone else suggesting that either. Many believe Test isn't doing much before 4 weeks in, however I believe you are already going to see good results even at just 2 weeks compared to having been use to natty test level results so far.
RustyhookerI suggest going a little longer than most 15-20 weeks
this whole forum is dogshit . Completely trash
explain why please?