+ 2 HGH testing and IGFBP3 testing
I wrote a research paper on HGH 22 years ago.Ever since I have followed the market periodically.I have also used many many many products and loosely discussed the subject with doctors and friends.You know what,i really haven't learned all that much more about testing in those 22 years.The markers that were always used were IGF1 and HGH serum levels.Now I want to be clear I am no more then a lay person when it comes to knowledge on this subject.There are many members in this forum that have a TON more knowledge then I.I hope they will continue to share their wisdom.Mr. Irongame made a great point in my direction a few days back. IGF1 levels don't indicate HGH.....This is true.They ALONE don't indicate HGH .And its a very important point as well.Every doctor I have ever spoken to or used had used IGF1 levels to determine administration and effect of HGH.Every single 1.....IGF1 is the most significant chemical in relation to HGH and its effects.....Now back to irons point.These Fucking Chinese sellers are smart and out to make a fortune on us.they have wisely been using things other then HGH to manipulate IGF.Peptides perhaps or IGF1-Lr3 and maybe many other agents.Iron also made a point that they may add other substances that will mimic hgh effects....These are great points and most likely very much true.Although i do like to remain logical.At some point after combining peptides and igf1 and antidiuretics you have concocted a powder that may cost you more money then purchasing HGH itself.....This last point about manipulation does seem logical ,however It is also all speculation.I have yet to see any evidence .I know its out there and there are plenty of people claiming that all generics are fake so here is a great opportunity to show us the evidence and statistics.I also do believe that a majority of HGH on the internet are frauds.However,I know this do to IGF1 and HGH serum tests coming back bad...I also know as a fact that there are great generic products as well.....I want to share my knowledge on some practices I have seen with other drugs.I know that there are pharma companies in Asia(and else where) that legally manufacture and distribute there porducts and also BACK DOOR deal to the black market.It would be completely unlogical to believe that this isn't happening with HGH as well...I am sure that I have even run into a couple of pharma products that were back doored and relabeled.OH BTW,I also probably ended up paying 1/4 the price of pharma for pharma(that was relabeled).....Now we all know that finding pharma quality or even legit generic HGH is a tough game.....I use 3 indicators in making my determination....First 1 is mass specs.This 1 is the toughest .You need to find mass specs on the actual product you are considering.Then you need to decide if they are legitimate .Then you need someone that can make a clear unbias determination.I am fortunate to have someone that can do that...so that's 1 piece....Next piece i use is IGF1 levels....Get baselines and administer a steady dose for 4+ weeks.Get IGF1 levels.It will tell you how muchyour IGF1 levels have increased(but not necessarily that we have HGH).I also like to have this lab done without using the HGH that day...maybe even 2 days.You see ,a lot of those frauds to manipulate IGF1 levels will just cause a short spike.Having a short half-life.True HGH will remain fairly steady levels of IGF1.We do of course have have IGF1 -LR3 which has a longer half life.....Like I mentioned ,not administering anything for a couple days may be the best way to determine HGH......Next is the HGH serum test.....3.5 hours after fasting and injecting 10 iu will give us our serum results....Now peptides will increase serum levels.So this test by itself ,once again, is not accurate alone.My question is how high can peptides raise serum? I believe if it is possible to get a number in the 30's its gonna take a whole lot of peptides which doesn't seem to be a profitable fraud...Peptides aren't free...cheaper but not necessarily cheap......Now my point is this...I got my mass specs....I got my IGF1.....I got my serum results and they ALL indicate a quality HGH....You know what....ITS HGH.......Each test on its own may not be a clear indicator but combined they are great tool for sure...The final tool being side effects(which again can be manipulated) and of course the mirror test...the most important test.LOGICAL THINKING..........On to this IGFBP-3 testing...I would love to hear some information on this.....I have heard people say that this is a better test to determine HGH...I have not found any clear information to show that.Most of the information that i have come across uses the ratio between IGF1 and IGFBP-3 to determine legion markers.Most of the other information suggests that the 2 usually mimic 1 another.....I don't question the fact that it can also be a tool in determining HGH,but how is it more valuable then IGF1?.....Please share..I have found labs that will provide the test for $99 and less.So if its better i am all for it.......This is an opportunity to debate the subject of testing generic HGH...this is an important topic in my opinion.Our forum consumes a ton of generic HGH.Much more so then Pharma I would guess...Not everyone can afford to go with pharma so its generic or nothing.There is absolutely no reason that we cant get an inexpensive generic of high quality.We just need to work as a team and find the best ways to determine HGH presence and purity.Please share your thoughts and ideals....If you can afford to buy pharma and don't mind spending the money then that is GREAT and certainly the best way to go.There are several generic products that our forum has reviewed highly.If you would like to help the generic consumer and can help the genric consumer then help to point out products that are a fraud and present the evidence.That is why I push lab testing.Labs are the best way to discredit a fraudulent product.......For those of you that are looking to HGH for its anti-aging effects,as I am.I can tell you that most of the clinics in my state (which is the anti-aging capital) like to get there patients IGF1 to a range of 300-350.
ANY INPUT ON HGH TESTING WOULD BE OF GREAT HELP.THANK YOU
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bigwillyI try to stay out of these topics because im not of the new age. I started using GH in 2006 when when most of the experts on here wer still in middle school, lol. and things have really changed over the years, in good ways and bad. back then we didn't have all this testing, but we didn't need it. good growth was very esy to get from china, for much less then we paid here. VERY EASY to get. and there wer not 1000s of fakes and rip offs waiting to cash in. hell to this day jintropin from 2007 has been the best gh iv used.
I for one would like to see guys stop hoping from one generic to the next doing blood work. id like to see some guys come up with a much beter stricter testing protocol. 1 product,, 6 months with starting numbers, mid way numbes and ending numbers. problem with that is who in the fuck has the same product for longer then 6 months lol. which brings us back to pharma gh is safer to use.
Cheaper than $2.75!? Lol
$2.75 per IU is a good deal in my book as long as it's the real deal and not counterfeit.....which is always possible....even possible for a pharmaceutical product. It's just the reality when dealing in the BlackMarket. But, there is some legit stuff out there. That's the beauty of eRoids. The information is just a click away. As for China's wide spread counterfeit goods, meds problem.....yes, it runs rampant....not to mention the pollution in which some of these products are made. JINTROPIN moved their BioPharm to a different, less polluted providence and still filters their air and water.
I was laughing when i read here. You know so much of China Bro. I wanna give you a big thumb up.
The air pollution has been a big problem in China in the recent years. The worst time was in the winter of
2013. Anyway, it has been changing day by day since the government and the whole country realized the problem and they are trying to fixing through different ways. It is a complicated big issue that needs to be solved. Anyway, it is true that some area does not have a good air or water. But most of the areas in China are fine, still good for human being live and manufacturer. So please take it easy. lol
By the way, as a Xhnese, I can accept some counterfeit goods, just my 2cents. For example, the lady's bag with Gxxci or ChanXX brand always wins so many ladies overseas. But i do not accept conterfeit meds. And the truth is as a XhineX citizen, we seldom see or have access to buy a counterfeit meds in a hosptal or a chemist's shop. But there are still so many bunk overseas. Sorry. This is XXina.
=)
Seems there's always Warnings or Bulletins on the Chinese Gov. website about tainted baby formula, fake cancer meds, Internet med sales, etc. Seems these types of products do make on the shelves in China. Seems there an influx of Chinese "tourist" into Hong Kong.
Exactly my thoughts bro. Wtf is in they vial of shit? 10ius of a generic color top looks like 40 of my pharm grade powder wise. So what's all the extra crap? I'm not even gonna say is it harmful cause I'm sure it is but how bad is it. Cause I felt like crap the entire time I was running geneics. Now I feel great and I'm getting crazy results on the pharma.
Well, some black market GH is legit. Seems recently not so much. There's posts showing test results (even by a source) showing it's not even the correct M/W. I think looking at the SwissProt diagram for HGH and IGF-1 might help. It's not some new chinese magical potion, it's just poorly manufactured HGH. It wouldnt be used for prescription even in China. Just a typical subpar counterfeit product sold on the BlackMarket. Kinda like a fake Rolex except your injecting this, not wearing it.
Human Growth Hormone - M/W 22,125Da
I see test results showing M/W 22,145-22,222 etc
So this isn't identical to Human Growth Hormone. But hey, it's cheap.
What's the short/long term effects.....not much studies on injecting counterfeit GH.
(Studies besides GTG and FYA)
But it's not something that would be Prescribed for any type of HGH Therapy.
Xhina produces quality meds, GH, etc
But it's regulated and watched just like here in the US.
That's the products everyone should be researching to get if they want cheap HGH
Have you had some samples tested showing M/W 22,125 Da? You should post them up.
^ This says it all and pretty much is what I've recently conceded to...
I really appreciate all the work that you do Hailrazor. And I hope you are allowed to post your newest findings on eroids at some point or worst case... find a neutral space to publish your findings.
First and foremost IGF and serum elevation does not prove it is quality Human growth hormone , all it proves is your injecting something that is elevating your IGF and serum numbers. It has been proven that different pep combos can do this, different natural remedies can do this, and some over the counter supplements can do this, but none are growth hormone. If there isn't a baseline blood test than the test is bullshit. As soo many different variables come into play like what else you were taking and its effects on your IGF and serum numbers , what your diet is like, your age , your sleep pattern , your genetics , the list is long. The reason clinics in the USA justify it is because your getting a 100% legit FDA approved product manufactured here so there is no reason to question authenticity. When you compare two sets of bloods one on legit well stored and handled pharma quality growth and compare it to a UGL or Generic batch of growth the difference is mind blowing if the pharma is indeed legit , there isn't any slight elevation of IGF and serums its off the charts high and you didn't have to pre inject 15ius , 10ius, but 5ius or under to see the results. Now when you pull bloods on generics and you pin 10ius to 15ius and get a slight elevation in IGF and serum that you could've got off 1iu to 3ius of legit pharma growth. Now if you think about the amount used to get those readings that itself is enough for me. To go in further you haven't any clue where the majority generic growth hormone is made, what agents are used to cut its raws, the long term effects of injecting it and its cutting agents if there is indeed any growth hormone at all in the substance, if their cancerous etc etc etc. When we talk about companies in china, what is china known for when you compare their products to products that were once made in the USA? Cheap. Quality control is very loose there, they use sub par materials ( look at the metal we get back from them used for cars for example which is much easier to manufacture than human growth hormone) , sub par work environments, sub par air quality, sub par food quality, let alone the fact that they fuck up dog food on the regular that can kill your pets FUCKING DOG FOOD , recalls on baby formula which you would think would have some serious quality control and standards. Now do you really they can produce consistent , quality human grade growth hormone? Do I think all generics are shit? No I don't, but I think true quality generic growth that's consistent is far and few in between. 8 OR 9 out of ten maybe and that's purely a guess judging by the products ive seen the past few years..... Now when you factor in how expensive it is to produce human grade growth hormone and the facility needed to do this, how delicate of a process it is, how delicate the finished product is, how one small fuck up can make it biologically junk, and how big the demand is for cheap growth and the testing methods used by some to deem it real , ask yourself how often do you think its faked? It is easier and cheaper to pack a bottle full of product than it is to fake pharma, I shall explain. Faking a generic= grab some vials, some stoppers with colored caps, a catchy name , and maybe even a legit looking box ,now here where it gets tricky and your profit margin suffers a little. You could pack the vials with total shit that is absolutely worthless , trump up your release, produce some fake labs maybe some mass specs for the gullible guys considering this is all online and you truly don't know if said product was tested or if it was some other lab that was real , affordable prices, maybe a few guys to help spread the word than let it go out to market , it will be short lived but easily pull in a few thousand if you do it right. Now say you fill your vials with a few different things that will elevate IGF and serums a little, but keep in mind the guys getting this tested are going to blast 10ius to 15ius roughly so it should give a decent rise in their eyes and be justified by their testing methods and you might get away a good amount of cash. Now to fake a pharma pen you would first need a legit box, legit pen that looks new, and to locate a large amount of them, then back fill a ton of cartridges which is going to be quite a serious process to even get this show on the road. Now with that out of the way lets say if you order pens from a reseller and they sit in the elements at room temperature at customs or that how he stores them because he doesn't give a fuck and its degraded, who's fault is that the reseller or the manufacturer? The reseller of course. Well when a reseller of generics gets a bad batch from a manufacturer whos fault is that? The manufacturer of course. So with that being said which way do you go? Do you take the chance on the kits because they're cheap , not knowing for sure whats in them, where it was made for sure, how harmful the cutting agents in the powders are and the long term effects of its use will be, if its sterile, let alone getting burned few times and pulling bloods that cost money a few times? Do you take the chance on the product that appears to be legit that from a reseller with a good track record, who delivers a product on ice , whos been around a while, might be a provider to other labs himself, and at worst case scenario its bac water that will not harm you, or its degraded? Now pharma isn't that expensive its out there , and depending on your connect and the amount you buy you might be surprised at how cheap you can get them, factor in cutting all the variables in half some possibly detrimental to your health what do you choose? I personally have seen pens go from $165 a piece up to $300 depending on the amount you buy and the mark up aka profit the reseller is trying to make. What baffles me even more are the guys who run the generics. As long as the IGF and serum bloods with no prior baselines are elevated slightly , they think they had some dreams , their hand fell asleep it must be real even if the results in the mirror are mediocre at best considering diet and training are there. I personally know two people in the USA that run pharma quality growth hormone from a CVS and on the pamphlet it list potential side effects , key word being POTENTIAL side effects and the list is long and neither of them get any side effects , so should they question CVS or the manufacturer on its authenticity? Of course not they are "potential" side effects not guaranteed side effects . Now go into your bathroom medicine cabinet and pull out some Benadryl or aspirin and read the side effects out loud to yourself , some truly will scare the fuck out of you, some are absolutely strange but when you don't get any of them do you call up Bayer or the manufacturer of your Benadryl and question its authenticity? Of course not because they are "potential" side effects they are not listed as guaranteed side effects. What I find absolutely hilarious is these guys around here will absolutely scream they are legit due to slightly elevated IGF and serum numbers , some phantom sides that could've came from laying on their god damn hand , or just piss poor circulation, and than every gullible fucker for miles comes running right along and buys into it that's how they justify its authenticity....... Now we all know High IGF and serums do not prove It is indeed true human growth hormone , we all know a side effect that could be from anything doesn't prove shit either. As irongame below said "One more thing you can add to the wortless. List is mass spec and HPLC. Mass spec only tells the molecular weight of the chemical. Not if it's biologically active or not. Making gh is incredibly expensive and difficult and one folded ion means the entire 191aa chain is worhless. HPLC will tell you purity but once again not if it's active or even if it's in the right 191 sequence. You need some very sophisticated and costly protein analysis testing to test gh." pretty easy to grasp right? I think so , but someone with no fucking knowledge of dick who falls inline believing that IGF and serums prove something , along with a side effect, cmon man grow the fuck up and use your fucking head it really isn't that difficult. If you really think the things ive said are just too far out you obviously are too trusting, careless and no business being involved in the black market. Along with watching numerous sources come rip people for thousands , comeback and repeat and some guys even stay involved for a few batches thinking the next one will be better smfh. I'm personally done watching people get ripped the fuck off. There it is in laymans terms for all the slightly soft fuckers or the people who don't understand all the mumbo jumbo bullshit......
I'm getting a slight 'irritated' vibe TT. Good Lawd!
If the MS/HPLC is tested using:
Assay
Activity
Impurities
Then that would be more than enough to tell you if you have rhGH or something else (other isoforms)
Lmfao no irritation just trying to protect some of our fellow members even if some are dumbasses........
I too was once a dumbass (still am really)
I've wasted so much good GH doing all the "GH Protocols"
Such a fool....but...live n learn
Seems there's a never ending revolving door of Chineric GH Sheep begging to inject 10ius IM all the while the Chins count their Yuan
None of us know it all. But properly educating yourself instead of believing fools will go along way. My mother god bless her miserable soul used to say three different sayings that I live by.
First time fuck you, second time fuck me.
If it looks to good to be true, it probably is.
When you get something for nothing what do you have? nothing.
We all make poor choices but its if we learn from them , or justify them which separates the crowd......
"Seems there's a never ending revolving door of Chineric GH Sheep begging to inject 10ius IM all the while the Chins count their Yuan" hit the nail on the head.
BioHygene (Hygetropin) has their HGH registered under the name "Sea Yuan"
Sea of Money...."Wide as the Sea".....true story
Learn something new every day lol.
An that right there should say something , or make you think hard......
One more thing you can add to the wortless. List is mass spec and HPLC. Mass spec only tells the molecular weight of the chemical. Not if it's biologically active or not. Making gh is incredibly expensive and difficult and one folded ion means the entire 191aa chain is worhless. HPLC will tell you purity but once again not if it's active or even if it's in the right 191 sequence. You need some very sophisticated and costly protein analysis testing to test gh.
Bottom line is I've had generics that raised my igf-1, produced great serum and gave me no results and I ran some very high doses. All it did was give me terrible side effects. Edema so bad my doctor had to prescribe a diuretic.
I know of one very high quality generic with one of the best sources to deal with , but it doesn't cost 200 a kit l. Lol. Good stuff tho forsure. But out of the 10 or so generics I've ran that's the only one with s shit and produces results. I got one other also. But I'll run my pharma until I can't afford to anymore. But here's the deal. 3ius of oharma a day will produce better results then 10iuz hottest generics out right now (excluding the two I know about ) and whn you factor in gettng bunk kits, all the blood testing, buying more kits cause you got bunk kits it comes out to the same price as 3 ius of pharma ed. And if you find a good connect which we do here on eroids if you dig hard enoigh you can get it for a good price, especially if you buy in a little bulk.
MS/HPLC using a "standard" (Sigma Aldrich)
Assay - mg/vial
Activity - IU/vial
Impurity - % (other peptides, proteins, chinx pubes, DesamidoSomatropin, etc)
LC-MS/MALD-TOF Analysis
Protein Sequence
Bioequivalence Study/Pharmacokinetic Analysis
IGF-1
IGFBP3
Non-esterified Fatty Acid (Blood Work)
This is what "Big Pharma" uses. But screw all dat chit
Injecting 10ius IM of some Chinerix and using a $65 LabCorp GH Serum Test is way mo betta
Sorry brother ... I meant that post in a very general way ... It wasn't directed at you.
Here is a graphic that shows the different peak times with rhgh vs ghrp vs dac
GHRP, GHRH have entirely different GH serum peak ... Usually the pituitary dump is within 45 mins post administration and full clearance at 3 hours ... Which wouldn't work if you are testing blood drawn at 3-4hrs ... So that claim is absolutely false ...
With that out of the way...
what we are probably dealing when it comes to the majority of the "legit" chinese gh is a near identical peptide to 191aa/192aa ... With impurities ... Whatever it is , it appears to signal your liver to synthesis IGF as evident in a lot of blood tests we seen.
And I agree ... If you take into the amount of cost and time that goes with constant pinning of ghrh/ghrp stacks to acheive the same IGF levels as let's say 4iu of riptropin... I'd go with Riptropin every time. Half the peptides being sold are either underdosed or carry the same uncertanties as generic rhgh and many come from China...
This has ALWAYS been such a Hot Topic. "Jin Rx" will never go away.
No Brotha I really do understand the $ situation. That's how I found out that Hygetropjn was never made under GMP standards. I was looking for legit Jins and found so much misinformation posted on BBing forums about GH. But, if you're spending $ on something that is just a typical counterfeit med that may or may not give you the benefits of an approved pharmaceutical product.....then why spend the $ in the first place.
^^^^^Yes!! Smart Man^^^^^
I think it would be cool to get off the hamster wheel of the same ole testing methods and try something different. Maybe the IGF-1/IGFBP3 might help. Maybe not. But I'm the only one that's posted one up so it doesn't really count beings the Ansomone is an approved Xhinese product.
With all the sources here that offer legit pharmaceutical GH and approved Xhinese GH, why would you take the risk of using a product that is sold to you as rhGH (22,125Da) and clearly isn't (this is from sample test results I haven't posted yet)
In studies they look at the IGF-1 itself and at the ratio between igfbp-1/igfbp-3. From what I understand IGFBP-3 is good and an indicator of bioavailable IGF-1 while IGFBP-1 is the bad guy. So somebody pulling IGFBP-3 also has to test for IGFBP-1 which gets damn expensive
As to the GH serum test: peptides release the body´s own GH by binding either to the hypothalamus or the pituitary. That means that a guy at 40 should get a lot less on his serum test that a guy aged 25 because his somatrophs are way less capable now. But comparing serum tests between age groups tells us that there is no linear pattern, just individual variations due to absorption ect. So there remains the possibility that something mimics the GH protein. The only thing I can think of that could do that would be a 192aa molecule. Has anybody pulled serum with an 192aa GH?
IGF-1 will not give you "GH Status". To test the analyte (GH), a combination of IGF-1 and IGFBP3 has been used in actual medical studies. (Product was M/S tested. So still not 100% if this would be a better testing method for counterfeit GH)
https://www.eroids.com/pics/ansomone-10iu-vial-lab-analysis
A labcorp GH Serum test cannot determine if you have injected Somatropin (22,125Da) or Somatrem (22,226 Da) or any protein in between (other proteins/impurities)
Labcorp GH Serum test reads 22K Da +
Ex: Riptropin/Current Hyges
https://www.eroids.com/forum/general/general-talk/some-people-have-antib...
https://www.eroids.com/pics/independent-u.s.-lab-report-confirms-our-pro...
I don´t understand why people are so scared of 192aa. The red welts and shit are almost exclusively due to impurities and NOT due to 192aa. 192aa was used for a long time in children with comparable results to GH as to growth increase AND IGF-1 production because it binds to the same receptors. The only thing is that the probability of developing antibodies to GH is a little higher with 192aa but still less than 5%.
This is a good read:
https://www.eroids.com/forum/general/general-talk/hgh-testing-the-real-deal
If you scroll down I've posted some other info.
192aa is no longer prescribed for (a)GHD because of Protein Immunogenicity
All FDA approved HGH in Powder form will have a small % of other proteins/impurities >22,125Da (Damaged Proteins during manufacturing (freeze dry) and packaging) DesamidoSomatropin-Non Therapeutic Proteins
This is why you see more Suspended/PreConstituted GH being prescribed (Ex: Nordi Pens) Less other proteins/impurities (>22,125Da)
Xhinese GH has a high rate of other proteins/impurities. This is why it's sold on the black market and not used for prescription use even in Xhina.
Ex:
Authentic JINTROPIN tested 1.4% other proteins
Fake JINTROPIN tested 18.9% other proteins at a M/W of 22,145Da
So the Hyge that had two different M/W present (22,145Da/22,411Da) I can only guess the % of other proteins/impurities would be extremely high. These kits still raised GH Serum and IGF-1.