+ 3 Why HGH when we have IGF1
First off let me say I am a newb when it comes to HGH so bear with me. I have lots of questions that I can't really seem to find a direct answer to.
It seems like the the main mechanism by which GH elicits its effects is through increasing serum IGF. This has me wondering then why not just cycle with IGF-LR3 directly then instead of waiting for GH to increase it? Unless I am totally missing something here it seems like a more direct, quicker and efficient approach. What are the benefits besides increasing IGF levels that HGH provides that pinning IGF directly doesn't? Was GH used to increase IGF since there really was no reliable sources of IGF out there? Now that we have some great quality IGF out there, why not use that instead of waiting for GH to increase it?
It almost seems to me that the best way would be to use GH in conjuction with IGF. Wondering if there is any synergy to running both of them together? My main goal here is to build lean mass so it seems that directly cycling with IGF to induce hyperplasia is the way to go. I don't really see the benefit in waiting for GH to do that. GH seems awesome for anti-aging benefits but directly cycling IGF seems the way to go for lean tissue building.
Now I do have some GH on the way as well as some IGF-LR3 and will be running both of them together, but I would really like to know why it would be beneficial to run both and not just cycle the IGF when I am looking for lean mass gains. Seems like a lot bigger bang for the buck to be cycling IGF.
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awnoldThere are a lot more effects of GH than just by causing ur body to create IGF-1. That's why u should use hGH and not IGF-1. I have used a lot of hGH and have used IGF-1. The hGH always worked wonders. The IGF-1 didn't do jack shit
I know it is an old thread but it has a lot of good information on it for people new to HG like me so I revived it.
I hope it doesn’t offend ya
+2
No problem. Lots of good info in these old posts. Nice to look back at the info.
Thank you very much for this topic. I found a lot of useful information for my.
X2
Certainly not the first and won\t be the last time this importnt question is raised.
In a nutshell the ideal solution is using GH in combination with IGF1-lr3 and/or IGF1-DES
It's true that the IGF1 is the mediator for most of the anabolic effect of the GH, but we must consider 2 things -
The GH has some direct metabolic effect by itself, both in releasing glucose and fatty acid into the circulation, and by this raising metabolism and releasing available energy for anabolic demands, The GH has also a direct effect on nitrogen balance not through the IGF1 path
The IGF1 itself has a direct suppressing effect on the endogenous GH release - so if u inject exogenous IGF you actually and directly suppress any GH present in the circulation
Further more - many GH users are not aware to the fact that GH decreases insulin sensitivity. IGF1 increases insulin sensitivity, and negates this effect, which leads to optimal metabolic conditions. Some users use insulin in conjunction with GH but using IGF1 is much more effective in retaining optimum insulin sensitivity and much much safer
So the ideal solution is combining them both and by this keep optimal serum GH and IGF1 levels
Hi if IGF-1 suppresses natural GH production, does it just return by itself after IGF-1 usage has stopped? thanks
Yes, and this process is faster then seen with the testicular axis (testosterone production)
This has me wondering if low dose IGF should continually be used as long as GH is being used to help maintain insulin sensitivity or would it be better to just cycle the IGF? The IGF receptors appear to become desensitized with higher dosed IGF (the typical 50mcg dose) hence why it needs to be cycled so long term at those dose wouldn't be ideal. Now could IGF be used longer term if keeping a low dose (say 20mcg or less) or would the receptors still become desensitized at that dose and the IGF needs to be cycled no matter what?
I am running a test on this. I am already insulin resistant so far my blood sugar is the same. So I watch my A1C and my diet closely.
It is good to watch your A1C because if it gets over 6 you will get fat, trust me.
Thumbs up for the post
I'll have to get my A1C tested. Don't think I ever had it tested before.
I know that when it gets out of wack on the high side for me I have to hit the cardio hard to keep from gaining body fat. But I keep my heart rate at 135 to 140 so I am not counter productive with my training.
I don't have enough empirical experience with low dosage IGF1, but it does make sense, there are known protocols with such dosages, I believe for instance from Palumbo as well.
I speculate that a daily dosage of 15-30mcg of IGF1-lr3 will be beneficial with the GH for long run, and the lr3 is very suited for this purpose as it has a long half life and creates stable "insulin assistance" advantage.
Another option may be to cycle lr3 for 4 weeks, then DES which is less "heavy" on the system asit has more of a paracrine effect, and then give few weeks off, it's a matter of trial and error, but these all makes sense
For now I think I will just cycle the IGF and see what I can come up with for long term low dosing of IGF.
Thanks.
You're going to be running the metformin if I remember correctly which hopefully will help maintain your insulin sensitivity. Well that my theory and what I'm doing on the cycle I've just started.
If you get the trots “diarrhea” You’re probably taking too much Met. I can get my A1C close to normal with excessive cardio. But it is counterproductive during a bulk cycle. I still do a little and keep my heart rate under 140 bpm for a warm up.
Now with the IGF in the mix, if I run the metformin it will be when I am off cycle of the IGF. I don't think I need to run the IGF and Met concurrently.
Sorry yes. I should have been clearer. No need to run the metformin while on the IGF. I'm out of IGF so until I order more I'm going to be running the metformin. I'm cutting so it's a different proposition for me.
Exactly, run in between
Wish I could give you more than +2. So there obviously is some synergy running them together which is good to know.
Growth does quite a bit that IGF doesn't do. Its kind of similar to how Testosterone has many secondary functions in the body other than just anabolism. I love me some GH.
Just do Tren, problem fixed... LMAO!
I would also still recommend im injections into the muscle group that you're working that day and I'd recommend pre workout. I found, for myself at least, that when I did a shoulder injection on leg day i did not get that same pump that I did when I did a shoulder injection on shoulder day. I'd also recommend getting an even encounter in the slin pin so you can split it up evenly and do lateral injections. More pump means more blood to the muscle which means more muscle will be built. I know you know that more than anyone here but as far as the igf goes and what you already know I think you'll see amazing results
Like Joey said hgh has multiple benefits. Don't get me wrong I love igf, but sadly enough igf needs to be cycled vs hgh which does not. I have been on HGH for a little over a year now and I have to say it has drastically changed my physique. I am only on my first IGF cycle but I'm definitely noticing the benefits and will continue to cycle at one month on one month off. I think short-term muscle building I would go with IGF but hgh has multiple benefits....so in a perfect world for someone that can afford it, I would just say use both. That's not practical or realistic for everyone because you're talking about a $500 a month cost.
What other benefits do you notice from it that you wouldn't get from IGF?
Number 1 would be the intense and painful pump at the gym which is my favorite part. I inject 30 minutes prior to my work out and everyone of those workouts become the best workouts I've ever had. Whatever muscle group I am working is actually throbbing and swollen and pumped more than ever has been. I will also be drinking a lot more carbs than I normally would so I'm sure that helps as well. I have not used IGF while cutting but from what I've told it helps with those benefits as well. But I can't say from first-hand experience.
Great info...
I have always been under the impression that avoiding carbs immediately following gh administration was important. But you pin pre-workout and "drink more carbs than usual". Am I misguided with my concerns or missing something otherwise regarding carb intake and pin timing?
Thanks!
I drink carbs after my igf pin because you can go hypo on it like insulin. I'm not drinking the carbs after my hgh pins. That's another subject all together.
Thanks for the clarification Freak.
How u divide the GH and IGF1 along the day ?
I just want to start off by saying I do not have proof that the way I am doing it is the best way and I do not have blood work at to back this up. However I have tried four different protocols for pinning my HGH. My current protocol I do feel I am getting the best results from and from what I've read I think it makes the most sense. After doing this for 4 to 6 months I will be able to state whether it's more effective or not. Right now it is just an opinion.
Rather than pinning one large dose or splitting it up and pinning two medium doses. I decided to break it up into as many injections as possible. I am currently taking .5iu to 1iu every 3-4 hours or as often as I can. My goal is to keep my igf levels higher through out the day. I'm currently running 4iu per day total but I'm splitting it up as much as possible.
There are many protocols, I find appropriate it on regular mess phase to take carbs 45-60 mins after GH, it'll help insulin to peak right before the GH peak which may maximize IGF1 levels, I'v never proven this, but this is my assumption
Interesting. I've stuck with avoiding carbs after pinning hgh, but have been wondering about a different approach.
I am currently taking 4ius when I wake up, but have been considering upping it to 6 when I start my next cycle in January. But having to worry about carb intake throughout the entire day, since I would need to split the injections, has given me 2nd thoughts. I'm just not sure I have the energy to worry with it in addition to all the other cycle considerations.
Thanks for your perspective.
Honestly, I think you're putting too much thought into it. Personally I pin my hgh 5-6 times a day. I'm also bulking right now and I'm eating carbs eight times a day. That being said at the end of every week I'm still noticing fat loss even while eating 4.5-5k cal per day.
Your probably right bro. I have wondered how one would manage a bulk diet, with constant meals and high carbs, while also working around multiple hgh pins every day. I guess the answer is you don't worry about it.
I appreciate the guidance.
Do you prefer to pin pre or post workout?
Thanks again.
Gh I try to pin every 3 hours. Igf I do pre workout so I'll do gh again after. again I want to stay that I'm not saying that these are facts or the best way to do it. I'm just thing that I've tried three or four protocols looking for what works the best for me. When I was explain how to do it this way I didn't think that it made a lot of sense and so far I'm happy with the results.
That's cool man. Thanks for all the feedback.
This is how I run it.
are you using lr3 or des?
I have heard the pumps from IGF can be pretty intense.
Yes sir they are! I'm ok a relatively low dose of it and still notice the benefits from it.
I'm planning on 50mcg post wo. How low are you noticing benefits from?
25mcg, I would use more if I wasn't running hgh as well.
Gh has numerous advantages. Anti-aging, skin and nail clarity, hair sheen, fat loss etc. However using the 2 together at around 50 mcg LR3 on workout days should accentuate the GH to where you'd only need to use roughly 2 iu of pharma gh to get a lot of benefit out of it as opposed to using 6 iu of growth. My buddy from Bolivia uses both although he prefers igf des because the lr3 makes him go hypo but he swears by using the two together. Thats just my 2 cents anyway based on my buddy who uses the combo and the research of done. I've seen some conflicting info about what to reconstitute the igf in but never has any article I've read not recommended the combo. Long story short the gh is converted into igf amongst other things likes mgf whereas the igf sends the signal for the brain to build the muscle the mgf sends the signal to repair the muscle. If you just want the lean muscle than just igf is the way to go however the gh will have other longer terms benefits as well.
That is kind of what I was thinking that when using IGF with GH you could get away with lower doses of GH, especially if only looking for the anti-aging benefits of GH. The problem is i don't feel like spending a fortune just for smoother skin, better nails and shinier hair. This mgf benefit sounds interesting though.
It really just depends on what you want bro. There's a very reputable source on here that I have seen lots of good things about and lab work to back his gh where you could literally get 4 months out of 1 kit at 2 iu a day and cycle the igf and you won't break the bank. It's not pharma but it's the closest you can get.
I ran 4-6iu all year and then dropped it to 2iu when started the igf. Igf being in you for 30 hours is going to really help.
(Read that it's 30hours but have not done bloods to prove it)
Everything I have seen about the LR3 is a 24-30hr half life.
I'm sure it varies based on subq vs im. Subq is probably 30 while im is probably 24. But ppg is right you could probably go down to 25 and work your way up towards the end since you'll start building a tolerance. I felt the des gave me a better pump but the lr3 lasted ages longer. The des would be good to spot inject a lagging body part but the lr3 isn't as bio available to the muscle you put it in so it's good for overall growth.
All good points