+ 1 Bloodwork results - High Test rebound after PCT- Need advice
I finished a 12 weeks cycle of Test E at 500mg per week used hcg throughout, but stopped 3 days prior to PCT. I got blood taken a few times throughout the cycle. The highest i saw my test was at 3000ng/dl this was towards the end of the cycle. So i got another blood test 14 days after my last shot and my test level was down to 487 ng/dl, which was right around my baseline level so I started PCT right away. I did the standard 4 week clomid/nolva pct 100/40, 100/40, 50/20, 50/20. One week following my 4-week pct (which was last Saturday) I got blood work again and my test level was up to 936ng/dl, which was surprising. Also of note, my IGF was down from 288 baseline, to 191, and estro was high at 69. I know that nolvadex lowers IGF so I'm hoping that rebounds on its own and I was thinking that I should take 12mgs of aromasin for a few days to get the Estro in check. Has anyone see a rebound like this? I was thinking of getting bloods done again next week to see how things are going. Wanted to get advice from some people on here. how should i handle the high estro? thanks. Below are the blood test results.
How do you past a table into this forum? I spaced out the info below but after I posted it, the info is all crammed to the left. I think you can still figure it out though.
Hormone Tested, Baseline, Mid Cycle, End Cycle, Start of PCT, Post PCT
Test (348-1197), 487, >1500, 3,200, 487, 936
Free Test (5-21), 11, >56, >50, N/A, 29
Estro (7.6-42.6), 24, 36, 109, 54, 69
IGF (88-233), 288, 261, N/A, N/A, 191
DHT (30-85), 16, 42, N/A, N/A, 63
SHBG (16.5-55.9), 27, 23, N/A, N/A, 35
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I know guys at my gym that run 50mg of Clomid daily off cycle. Both swear that it will keep natty test number up 200-300 points over baseline.
RustyhookerI bet there's suppression from negative feedback and if they drop it they'd crash.
Are you saying that by taking clomid you're suppressing your bodys natural production? So I've been taking clomid for 4 weeks and my boys have definitely plumped up full size. Isn't my body producing it's own test now? Just trying to understand...
RustyhookerHes talking about using it to bridge between cycles. So if cycle is 12 weeks + 6 weeks of pct and 2 weeks after last pin = 20 weeks off time.
20 weeks of a non trt guy using clomid between cycles I'd bet would be a shutdown. Its artificially raising your test levels beyond your normal pct.
So far I've not seen anything thats ok to bridge with except hgh and peptides. And there's even suppressive peps.
I was reading on here, the way clomid works, is that it blocks estro at the pituitary, which causes the pituitary to increase LH, which causes testies to produce more test. So if a non trt guy used it for for a a few months, then stopped, wouldn't your pituitary just go back to producing normal levels of LH which would bring your test back to baseline?
This is correct. Androxal will be available soon, and there are ample studies that demonstrate its effectiveness and positive impact on fertility, i.e. it doesn't shut you down. Androxal will get rid of the isomer that causes a lot of the clomid sides for people.
That said, when I decide to stop cruising on test, I run 25mg off cycle.
Clomid is a great drug that is highly misunderstood in bro culture. Androxal hopefully will put an end to the crazy PCT regiments like torem.
We keep forgetting in this game that there is something fucked up in the world. Test levels are half what they were in 1950, shortly after testosterone was discovered and measured on a large scale. Going natty means being a modern effete for many guys. You've got some guys at the left hand of the bell curve who naturally have high test levels on par with the average of the 1950s (Which was, btw, like 1000), but that's not most guys.
In my mind, unless you are part of that 5%, there is nothing wrong with cruising with test or clomid between cycles. Another benefit of clomid versus test: no negative impact on bloods.
The company making androxal has spent a lot of money over years and proven that virtually all test subjects return to baseline in a few months after cessation, i.e. their test levels before treatment.
Thanks for this info. I'll have to read up on androxal. I assume it's not in the market yet?
Just a spitballing here guys, but given such a good number on clomid, would it make sense to use clomid instead of test injections as a trt ot maybe a very lighf cycle or bridge? With low dosed aromasin maybe? Sorry if it's a stupid qiestion, I never really thought orcresearched it
Research Androxal. It's a modified version of Clomid that will be released soon to treat low test levels.
Will def do, thank you brother
Not a stupid question at all. I know some endo's are actually using clomid now for trt and it seems to work just fine
Hmm.... And he was close to a thousand a week after stopping clomid. We can easilly assume that he was higher on PCT. of course everyone will respond differently but I guess it could be adjusted with a dosage. I never really experience any clomid sides so it could be interesting. I'll have to research it a more.
bigmurphI read some things about endo using clomid therapy before giving trt to patients and what I read said that alot of men respond well and natural test levels went up in a high percentage of the patients. I was thinking that before starting my cycle that i could start taking clomid and raise my test levels from the start then start my cycle I figured if I could run clomid 3 months prior to my cycle the higher test levels would be a great boost before cycle starts. I was going to start a post and see what everyone else thought about it. I just haven't finished researching it. What are your thoughts about this do you think it would be beneficial, and do you know of any reason not to do this
Clomid, nor the modified form Androxal, cannot raise your levels beyond a physiological maximum. Sides with clomid also increase significantly at higher doses.
If you do try it, start with 12.5mg per day, and don't go higher than 25mg per day. All the Androxal studies have demonstrated unacceptable side effects above 25mg per day, with only marginal increases.
It's been my experience the same is true for clomid. I don't really PCT anymore, and just cruise test or run clomid. At 25mg per day, I generally feel fine in a week or so after all ester clear my system. Outside of losing strength
What type of sides are you referring to when you dose androxal above 25mgs/day? I thought the point of androxal was that they removed the isomer that caused the sides in clomid?
Yes I've seen it bro. As Med said get bloods a few weeks later not one week and yes I would run some aro estrogen should subside
1 week post pct isn't long enough time, usually should wait 6 to 8 weeks post pct once everything has cleared and reached homeostasis. You test is 900 because the clomid hasn't cleared yet. Like MedX stated try in 5 weeks.
OK, thanks for the replies
RustyhookerTextbook!
RustyhookerSo what exactly are you asking? Pct stopped...a week later your test was over 950. Excellent. ...so what are you thinking is rebound? I think you're over analyzing a lot.
Get bloods again in 5 weeks...
Also should I take some aromasin to get estro down? Or leave be?
Yes like Trenabolic said above run aro...i say run it at 3.125 (3mg) eod 4 times starting Sun, Tues, Thur, Sat....u have oily face? If oily face goes away after 2 doses...run one more dose on Thurs and monitor for return of oily face and hold Sat dose....get back on here Wed and let me know whats up...
OK, no oily face right now. Even during cycle when estro got high I didn't have oily face.
How long ago was that estro 69 blood pulled? 2 wks ago?
Yes two weeks ago. Why? I was reading on here that high estro causes the pituitary to stop producing LH, which means no test production in the testies. I assume this is why I need to get my estro down with aromasin?
Have u taken aromasin this week, yet? FR sent
Yes been taking 3mg eod
Good. Discontinue use of Aromasin after this week. Then, get bloods in three more weeks. Does this sound okay? Trying to keep ur estro from dipping too low...
Sounds good. How long does it take for clomid to clear my system?
OK, Have you ever seen test go up during pct?
RustyhookerWhat do you think pct does sir?
My base line was 487, I guess I didn't know pct would boost test that high. I'm not concerned, I guess I was just seeing if it's normal. I assume I'll float back down to my baseline over the next month.
RustyhookerYessir. Trenabolic is correct up top with some trt endos using clomid.
+2 for testing.