+ 7 Tren and test fight for the same receptors or is it bullshit internet parroting?
Iv'e been talking about this in several different forums today, and nobody can really provide any proof of this, YES we know tren has a higher binding affinity then test, but so what?! There are thousands of receptors, so fine tren gets there first but that doesn't mean all that test goes to shit and turns to estro, if it did then why run test with it at all? That would be a waste of good gear right? Wrong. Because if you asked anyone who actually did run high test with tren they will tell you they got much BIGGER results, yes sides were higher but the results were bigger, and i didn't say better either-just bigger.
So assuming that tren really does win the receptors every time, then there would have to be a certain amount of tren you would take that would make test completely useless, but when you look at pro BB's all over they are running high dosages of both test and tren and are making huge gains, if this receptor thing is true i am positive they would know that and would not waste 2-3g of test every week.
So my point is that - YES you will get less sides with low test, BUT that doesn't mean the tren is taking up all the receptors and leaving no room for the test to go to. So why are the sides higher with test?? I have no idea. That's what i am trying to figure out myself.
This is all just my take/opinion and if someone can prove me wrong then please go right ahead, i am here to learn after all. Thank you for reading.
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ya its all noobs parroting trying to sound smart
lol no its not mate!!!
ClassyChassisAnother thing,, prolactin is estro dependent, so the test would tend to increase prolactin sides. And there is some evidence that anger/irritability/aggression on-cycle is actually more due to increased estrogen, rather than test. So I think that's the mechanism behind test amplifying prolactin-induced gyno and anger, etc. It's actually the resultant estrogen causing the problems. Thus, an AI is probably a good idea.
safetyfirst21http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6539197
@FinMan
Im doing tren with no test now and this has been my best tren run so far, i sleep 6-8 hours a night with no waking up btwn plus a nap during the day, no anger, irritability, anxiety, or pretty much any of the usual tren sides i get when i run it with test, except for night sweats but they're manageable. Sex drive is great too, but that might be because of the mast. Will i run tren with test again? Yeah most likely at some point, but right now i dont think i need it. When i started off this tren run i was on a gram of test and all i got was lumps under my nipples and complete loss of appetite, so i wasn't making any gains, idk why but test seems to amplify all the bad sides tren has.
I love it!
Crazy thing is that what i'm doing now goes everything that is preached all over the internet, but its working for me..
shirlsguyAny chance your residual test just lasted... loooong time? I mean, I ran high tren, low test... like just 50mg Prop M-F for fuur weeks and then completely cut off for another two weeks before bloods and had Serum Test (UK) at 53. If you are running 2-3g test weekly, then half life rules would say you could go damned near a cycle of Tren with "no test" and actually still be running TRT? Thoughts?
Well it's been over 5 weeks since my last shot of test and i feel better then ever, my last few test shots were only 100mg of test e e3d for a couple weeks so i'm pretty sure my test levels are low to none
I wish I could do this exact thing. I do miss the tren only days ( I know I will get slammed for that but ... Hey, it worked- FOR ME) I'm just not sure HOW to get down to zero test. I'm 41... And I've been blasting cruising for a while now. Mostly blasting with some cruising thrown in there... However, I'm just not educated enough to grasp how I could get down to a no test state to accomplish this. I was actually thinking of dropping test DURING a blast ... And see how I do. Obviously I would have prop and even TNE on hand if I just crash and burn. I don't know honestly if this is in the cards for me or not anymore. Any thoughts or input ... I'm very open as always to listening to the bros with constructive thoughtful input... Or even wild ideas!! Lol
I'm on trt tho ... So nobody misunderstands....(self RX'd)
I don't see why u can't do it now bro, as long as u have your test on the side u should be just fine, you're on trt already, whats the worst that can happen? I say try it..
AnonThat was written very well my brother. Very interesting piece. What conclusions have you came to?
My conclusion is that tren and test do fight for the same receptors. So during that time that the tren is latching itself on to the receptors some of the test converts to estro (causing sides). BUT when it comes to making gains i believe that taking a much higher dose of test will results in bigger gains because more test will end up getting to the receptors. Although you'll end up with lots and lots of estro too so a nice dose of ai would be due here.
RustyhookerAgree! Also, what bottom said as well hits home. If the excess of test is converted then isnt going too far into the excess just a waste of test? Finding that piint of mass vs waste could be found with bloods.
Well my idea is that not all the test would be converted and wtvr is left will get to the receptors. But yeah we need some test subjects, maybe i'll do it in a month or two, and get bloods to see exact estro numbers while i run a decent amount of test with it
Another thing to keep in mind is : does test have any other effects on the body when not bound by the androgen receptors?? Who knows maybe it has other supportive or anabolic capabilities that we just don't fully understand yet.
I'm just throwing some ideas around for thought. I have no solid proof or anything just some ideas I came up with lol or things I read about.
For example we know anadrol is one of the best mass and strength gaining steroids out there. We also know it has very little binding ability to the androgen receptor. So what does this mean? Anadrol exerts it's anabolic effects through unknown pathways. We know the body recognizes anadrol as an estrogen or like an estrogen this is why those prone to anadrol gyno need nolva. We also know estrogen in itself has anabolic effects, so is this why anadrol can also be anabolic? Anadrol works by pulling water into the muscle cells, creating a perfect environment for muscle building. When the water is pulled in, nutrients and amino acids are also more available for the muscle to build proteins.
RustyhookerVery true! From reading all the tren vets writeups the tren sure looks very user dependent. Sure makes hard science difficult but the bloods will map it out for you. Im starting a tren run in 2 Weeks. Low test style. Going light as well to see if it works or makes me a bigger butthole.. Lol.
Lol you should be alright with low test regarding attitude and bitterness etc, good luck on your cycle man
there has been a lot of feedback when people take a low amount of test with tren that the sides are much less if any at all. everyone is different. having the genetic response to aas is more important than having the genetics to build muscle. you can overcome that with high doses of tren, gh, insulin, etc. the key will be the response to them that separates the amateurs from the pros.
phil113kgAh damn kids, christmas in April http://www.eroids.com/pics/mutas-weapons-of-mass-destruction
I'm running high test and tren and fucking love it. my test dose is 750
side effects: a few spots acne, increased aggression (not bad just a lil edgy) and sweating - lots.
overall my side effects on this cycle high dose tren are less than my last cycle with 400mg deca
sure trt dose test is good for low sides, but I feel better on high test and gains are better
I've done it this way. I get the same results too. Just more sides. I can reduce my sides by bumping the AI but I have excellent results with my test at 250mg ew so why bother. My libido is my only real concern when I run tren. 250mg test is sufficient. But if someone doesn't get the harsh sides on high test. Go for it.
You are the minority here lol consider yourself lucky
I have to agree.
oh yeah I forgot, I'm also the guy who never gets pip lol
seriously though, I have been having a perfect cycle, first few weeks had test dose low and just wasn't feeling it. Once I brought test up the whole cycle just lit up. I'm loving it.
High libido, no bad sides, huge gains, alpha male feeling all cycle, it couldn't be anymore perfect.
Yeah another thing people forget is that everyone has different genetic response to hormones, for example--
One guy can take a gram of test and not grow while another guy can take 400mg and blow up, most bb'ing pros have that one thing in common, which is amazing response to hormones
RustyhookerBoom! Genetics at its best!
MOST, lol. I am sure a few of them are unlucky and need freakish doses anyways. Another thing the pros have in common is they all stay on year round and every 4-6 months swap one anabolic out for another, example: EQ,TREN,DECA,EQ,DECA,TREN, they just flip flop and keep test dose high and new receptors are being synthesized faster than the body can handle resulting in huge gains.
Not to mention the HGH, slin, and god knows what else they take lol.
But yea I know higher test means more androgen receptors. Actually many androgenic drugs cause this effect. I had a study I found a while ago on it I will try to pull it up for you.
Haha i'm pretty sure they are all on high dosages, the difference is that a typical guy without the same genetic hormone response will not be able to handle being on that amount of gear, and even if they can push through the sides their body won't know how to utilize all that gear and it would go to waste, the build of new receptors takes time with anyone though, i read somewhere that it would take a full year on high dosages (im talking about 5g total gear or more) for the body to finally have enough receptors to be able to use it all. So the only real way to know if u are capable of being on that level is to try it and see for yourself.
AnonOf course they are all on high doses becauzse they have been juicing and lifting for years....and when you have been doing it this long you need a higher dose to respond it seems like...or atleast for me it is and most are on year round idk if they blast and cruise but them nutz gotta be.fried so they must be trt...idk
Not all of them work their way up to higher doses, looks like some junp right into it, besides these days the huge guys u see on stage at the olympia are abusing the hell out of insulin and hgh and its making them grow at an insanely quicker rate then aas alone could ever do. I mean look at phil heath, he started bb'ing in 2002, 10 years down the road and he beats jay cutler who's been in the game for I think around 30 years
I'm running tren 5x higher than my test and I'm gtg, although I gradually worked up to this dosage I seem to handle the shit pretty well and agree with keeping test at a TRT dosage and letting tren do its work. Individual results may vary.
Yup i agree the sides are nothing compared to when running high test with tren, but when someone is shooting to be a pro bb'er, low test is not really an option
AnonRegardless of the ratio you choose....the result is whats important regardless if you plan to be pro or amateur. ...if low test ratio gets you better results then thats the way to go.....ive ran it both ways and respond well both ways.....but less sides with low test.....so thats my thought and experience
Haha, that's true. I can only imagine what knds of dosages they are taking lol.
RustyhookerChem clasd discussing endorphines and opiates. Both compete for the EXACT same receptors. Opiates always win because they're stronger. The bodies reaction to overstimulation is to lower endorphines. Which creates more desire/addiction to opiates.
Now, taking two androgens that compete for those exact same receptors....tren is 5x as strong. TREN wins.
Given those facts, a stack is even stronger. Stack low test(less conversion) mast and tren. Masteron attaches to different receptors as well as non-aromatising yet...full masteron benefits because its not competing.
Now the confusing stats you'll get from the guys running high tren/high test...AI use is MUCH better than it was when i started back in 98. Back then it was simpky handfull of nolva for everything. Now it's all science. Block prolactin which then isn't boisting estrogen. Aromasin, a suicide inhibitor controlling estrogen completely.
And never can forget hoe individuals vary. How many folks can take more pills with no effect. Or liquor. Everyones individual body will process chemicals differently regardless of maindyream standards..
Anyone arguing the power of caber/aro in a tren stack simply needs to read the blood tests posted. Guys coming to this site with 400+ estro jumped on aromasin at 25Ed and in a week its down under 100.
And looking at caber....proof is also in blood tests. More science based facts.
You know, ive been thinking about it and we know tren gets to the receptors first always, right
Now i have a theory that lets say someone ran 500test/500tren, the tren takes over and all/most of the test converts to estro/dht, because of all the waiting time...
Now since this happens, say someone takes a 1g test/500 tren, so the 500 tren attaches itself to the receptors first and settles down while 500 test converts to estro/dht, and then the 500 test thats left attaches to the receptors that are now free and not being 'fought for'. BOOM more gains right? Since the test is actually being utilized
Obviously you'd need more ai because of so much estro, and there will probably be a hell of a lot more sides, but we're talking pure gains here. Makes sense to me, what do u think?
RustyhookerIn that respect with ai in place then i have to agree with the video you POsted that started this discussion. In the video remember the scientist ADDED estrogen so the beef wasn't ripped hard and solid. They added the estro so that there's more "marbelling"(fat). Which of course is mass just not rock solid(show prep). If estro is controlled you have more mass but under control.
I don't understand why you need proof. It sounds to me like you do not understand the pharmacodynamics of androgens.
Test = Androgen
Tren = Androgen
These molecules attach to androgen receptors.
Tren has a much higher affinity to the androgen receptor.
Now hopefully you can figure the rest out.
I think where the confusion lies on your part is you think the androgens actually give you the effect. This is not the case. Androgens are just a messenger signal. Just like LH and FSH signals the leydig and sertoli cells.
It is the activation of the androgen receptor that gives you the effect, not the androgen.
If tren binds tightly, and activates the receptor, what would be the point of having test attach?
If test is not bound, or attached what can it do ?
No offense but sounds like YOU don't know your pharmacology.
When androgen dose is increased, or androgen receptors are all bound, more androgen receptors are synthesized.
AnonYes but not in time to utilise the extra androgens.. That theory was first raised by the great man trainbrain and it was more directed at 'investing into future cycles' runnin a tad bit more aas than your body can utilize at any one time is an investment. But this is also the blind zone where AIs are crucial and where test and dht are more prone to conversion
AnonBOOM! New receptors don't grow overnight. Solid bro
First, welcome to the site. Iv'e seen u around man, you're a smart dude lol. Now my question is that i know of quite a few bb'ers who run grams of test among other steroids with say a gram of tren, if this theory is true then it would render all that test useless, which i don't believe to be true otherwise i'm sure they would have caught on by now and saved all that test money on more tren or food etc
phil113kgAh a classic case of science verses bro science. They both have their part. Like the yin and the yang, we can't have one without the other. Good post M +1
Thank u phil, this has been an issue that's on m mind for quite some time
phil113kgAnd will always be around like the topic of religion. It will be based on one person's experience. As for me, I run experiments on myself to find that sweet spot. Once I find it I will sometimes increase the dose to see if I will have a positive or negative feedback.
Anon+1 for that comment.
Yeah i tend to do the same thing, so far i know what causes sides, right now im trying to figure out if the gains are worth putting up with sides. Btw your +1s are actually +3s these days
AnonWell an experienced bb would use ai's am i right? So even if a large majority of the test was converting most of it would be stopped in its tracks before they were even aware of it! Id assume these guys running grams of each compound would also be upping their dose of asin/adex etc.. So in reality they be none the wiser and lets be honest guys running that much gear are more than likely working their arses off! Im not quite sure androgens are bound/useful for a set period of time... Id assume it'd be bound/useful to ar's until it got the job done.. Therefore great big heavy workouts and long hours of cardio would utilise double the amount of compound of say someone doing half the workload but over the same period of time..
Much like 2 guys eating the same amount of calories.. 1 guy gets fat the other gets ripped?! Even when using the same amount aas.. When we have proof that unbound test has a much higher rate of conversion to estro and we have proof that trenbolone has 5x the binding affinity of testosterone then we have PROOF that 'excess' testosterone when used with trenbolone can and will lead to estro comversion! UNLESS ofcourse we use adex which would raise our free testosterone levels greatly! This is one of the reasons i think adex is a better ai! The excess test doesnt go to waste.. It will remain until utilised even throwing 'half life' theories out the window..
You bring up some good points man, we need to get a scientist and some test subjects to get down to the bottom of this, until then we can just assume and theorize