+ 7 Tren and test fight for the same receptors or is it bullshit internet parroting?
Iv'e been talking about this in several different forums today, and nobody can really provide any proof of this, YES we know tren has a higher binding affinity then test, but so what?! There are thousands of receptors, so fine tren gets there first but that doesn't mean all that test goes to shit and turns to estro, if it did then why run test with it at all? That would be a waste of good gear right? Wrong. Because if you asked anyone who actually did run high test with tren they will tell you they got much BIGGER results, yes sides were higher but the results were bigger, and i didn't say better either-just bigger.
So assuming that tren really does win the receptors every time, then there would have to be a certain amount of tren you would take that would make test completely useless, but when you look at pro BB's all over they are running high dosages of both test and tren and are making huge gains, if this receptor thing is true i am positive they would know that and would not waste 2-3g of test every week.
So my point is that - YES you will get less sides with low test, BUT that doesn't mean the tren is taking up all the receptors and leaving no room for the test to go to. So why are the sides higher with test?? I have no idea. That's what i am trying to figure out myself.
This is all just my take/opinion and if someone can prove me wrong then please go right ahead, i am here to learn after all. Thank you for reading.
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I appreciate these type of posts that question conventional wisdom w/ reasoned assertions. This stimulates discussion and though a consensus may not necessarily be reached there's a lot of learning that goes on, especially when the big guns come out. +1 for good sht
Thanks man, hopefully we will get to the bottom of this soon
zewiGot a feeling something is in the works to answer all this..
Agreed great debate!.. to conclude as mentioned earlier my personal test tren ratio would be goal specific due to tren being the only 19nor i can comfortably tolerate,no scientific study led me to that conclusion, the true fact is that 32yrs of trial and error with multiple attempts with different ratios and compounds (test blends) have left me with the current successful stacks i choose to run with minimal or mostly zero bad sides.. again i must outline always goal specific.
Bring more science folks i love to read and have OCD were knowledge is concerned
i ran high tren, low test last cycle, now i am running high test low tren.. i will let you guys know if i see any difference
Awesome, i suggest getting your bloods taken 3-4 weeks in and check your estro levels, i think this would show how much test is actually being converted, not so accurate but it would give us some sort of idea, obviously you'd have to keep your ai at the same dose you normally would..
Great debate, i've got nothing to add, but learned a lot.
+1
This thread turned out to be pretty informative. I think it cleared things up a bit. Anyone agree or do you still have questions?
Definitely cleared some things up for me
I agree. Good post. +3
thank u nitti, i appreciate it
So based on what you've learned from this, will you be using tren at higher doses than test? Just curious
I have and will continue to do it that way. For me 25mg test ED is perfect, no sexual sides, no anxiety, i do get a bit of insomnia but melatonin helps. So, even if the conclusion is that more test 'can' bring bigger gains i won't do it, the sides are not worth the gains IMO.
Science based power chart. Affinity strength.
http://www.eroids.com/forum/steroids-qa/anabolic-steroids/anabolicandrog...
zewiOnly cause i love you guys..
go here first best pic i can find for now.. Dont worry im going to write up a long response to this in a new post..
http://www.rise.duke.edu/phr150/Performance/images/steroid_response.jpg
now if your looking at the pic you can see the steroid hormone on the outside and than coming in--than in the inside you see the steroid receptor that the steriod hormone connects too..
Now how that works wich i will write up longer for everyone since this is a hot topic.. is the higher the anabolic-androgenic effect the more Steriod hormone there is--it acts like a crowd.. So what i mean by that--is outside where the Steriod Hormone is, lets say your taking test p and tren a... On the outside you have 500 Tren a Sterriod Hromones, and 100 Test p Hormones.. Well guess you is going to shove through faster and more of the one with more out side.. However, you only bind so fast and produce proteon synthesis so fast(yes everyone is diffrent)--but it leaves test p Steriod Hormone on the outside not doing anything but convertining into estor.. sure it makes its way in.. But not as often and usally after the Tren has all been used.. However, not all the test p is avalible because some of it has already converted to estor. The way diffrent compunds work..is how long the live. their Anabolic-adrogenic effect, and how they afeect the DNA process
go here http://www.thepepproject.net/Load/
Choose student
Than hit no for the read me first crap
Go to Moudle 6 up top..
Than on the botom right you can click on the pics read.. Dont worry i'll post more links so you can understand the Higher the anabolic-androgenic effect--Attachets faster more frequent and better to a receptor. But like i said before some do it faster some do it slower.. Wich all benifits because they all tell your DNA to initiate protein synthesis.
So let's say someone is taking 500test/500tren and tren of course beats test to the receptors leaving extra test to turn into estro/dht. Now we have another guy taking 1000mg of test, shouldn't he have the same issues as the other guy because the test is filling up the receptors and there's going to be just as much left over in both cases?
(Not sure if i explained that well enough lol)
zewiNo cause wich I will explain more but here is a quick answer.. on the outside where the steroid hormones are only so much can be there Tren doesn't convert to estro so it can sit and wait and take up the space to much test like u will be used but now your letteing the tern sides kick in as its waiting to push through..so u end up with Tren and test sides.. hope that made sense at lunch on my phone
Even on the video from yesterday, the dude said the tren only caused the cows to be too lean. So they added estro because they don't use testosterone. The added estro added MORE mass and marbling(fat). In HUMANS that test that's not used converts to estro and gives us bad side effects. Cows just get killed 2Weeks later. So WE are the gunea pigs. The stronger tren wins receptors(500:500) and leftover test is converted.
cdaddy7Yepers
yes i think i'm starting to understand, correct me if i'm wrong--test converts to estrogen and tren doesn't so because tren beats test to the receptors, during the time that test is waiting for the tren to "settle down" some or most of it converts to estro/dht causing issues? Whereas when someone takes a gram of test there is no waiting time for the test so there will be no issues?
I believe Llewellyn stated test converts at the rate of 50%. Tren has no estro conversion. Prolactin raise exacerbates estro raise as well.
so then it isn't really 'leftover' test, it's just test that has been waiting around for too long and converted
Bingo! Nothing is really just "leftover" . Everything is used, converted, decayed, expelled. Carbs....carbs not used "leftover" can be stored in liver or as fat. Test is broken down by alpha5reductase. Broken Dow, converted....used in a different way.
this clears a lot up for me, i was under the impression that tren was taking up all the receptors leaving no room for the test, which wouldn't make sense for reasons listed..
Tren is strong enough to take more receptors. Test fills in til there's excess. Both tren and test breakdown and the cycle continues as long as injections do.
cdaddy7Correct homie....all have positive effects on protein synthesis but def varies from person to person based on their genetic make up and potential.....remember testosterone converts to DHT or estrogen....It's the pitutary regulation that we end up converting so much into estrogen bc the body is trying to reach homeostasis for the high level of test....It's the body's ability to create a stable balance
zewiThanx brother like i said i write up a science post/with good analogy’s so it all works together in the post and hopefully bring understand on all compounds and how the work DNA/Receptor ways, and the understanding that everyone is different and even Age plays a factor. . Just something i could put together real quick at work.
AnonWill tren really fill your garage full of hot chicks at a rate 5x faster than test :( im on the wrong compound bros
My house only has one and shes to busy in the kitchen :(
CAN ANYONE FIND A STUDY OF SCIENTIFIC FACT THAT ALL AAS COMPETE FOR THE SAME AR?
This would be extremely helpful. Not the bro-science that you read on another board. Frankly I don't care what another bodybuilder says (Pro or not) on another board. I know what works best for me. I'd like to see the science behind it. I think we need it to better educate the community!!
But if all aas competed for the same AR then wouldn't any other compound with tren would cause side effects? Not just test..
I remember reading about a different reaction after strenuous activity. A different kind of receptor taking in androgens. So there is the AR and there are other receptors at work. I wish I had the time to read right now. But anyway, what I should have said was a study on the binding affinity of different compounds and what that means when choosing test and tren. Tren hex was once approved for human consumption. They didn just decide to approve it without thorough study. Anyone have a reference?
cdaddy7I will get a reference for u....bc this is the ligand issue the way it binds....some better than others to the receptor...I always think of a rachet set or a wrench to a bolt....the way they fit loosely or snug....depends
I know the studies exist but they are hard to dig up. Parabolin had to have been studied prior to approval and I'm sure they compared it to the effectiveness of test for a number if different diseases and or deficiencies
for some reason it is extremely hard to find any studies on it...
Either way its am excellent point you bring up and challenges what we think we know. All I can say for certain is I have done it both ways and what you describe is what happened. I had more sides with higher test but the same gains. Why? But I'm not on board with crazy high doses of anything anyway. I'm not at the point where I need a gram or more of test with another gram of another compound. I still make good gains at moderate doses. Praise Jesus!
Nobody is denying that low test high tren is the most comfortable way to run tren, i agree 100% that the less test u add the less sides u will get, but that doesn't prove anything about fighting over receptors. That is just an assumption because 'it makes sense'. Still if anyone came to me for advice about running tren i'd suggest no more then 200mg test. My point was that tren and test fighting for receptors should not be preached as a fact because it IS NOT A FACT. All we know is that lower test=lower sides.
Again, i personally would go with lower test too. This whole discussion is about receptors, and whether there is some truth to it or not. So because we have a limited amount of receptors, at some point/dosage tren will fill every single one of them leaving no room for any test at all, so at that point running test with tren even at a low dose would be pointless. But how do we know what point that is? For all we know we shouldn't be running test at all with tren...but we don't know.
I started on tren only cycles and I did PHENOMENALLY good. No libido problems, no real anything problems. I mutated pretty damn well. The I threw in test and have run it with test ever since. It has been different eve since... Not better not worse. Just different. But at this stage of the game and my age... I'm not too sure I wanna try no test again.
BTW... This is probably the best thread I have read on here bar none. Plus one Mjunkie.....
Everyone on here with their input deserves a plus one in fact.
AnonWouldnt this question apply to most if not alll androgenic hormones/steroids?! If only so many receptors existed there could only be so much steroid being utilized at once.. One thing thats got me googling for answers is... Yeh trenbolone may bind five times faster and have 5 times the pure power of testosterone but in a physics type environment anything exerting 5x the energy of something else with a similar 'moleculare weight' should in reality only be active for a 5th of the time compared to the other!?
So even tho its much more powerful does it hold on to the receptors for as long as testosterone?
This is obviously just as relevent to a steroids values as its binding affinity as its only active as long as its bound!
if thats the case and you are running both, would you shoot the tren everyday while shooting test pro say every other? if the tren falls off more quickly
AnonWell im not referring to the life cycle of the esters but rather the life duration of the hormone itself.. The ester stays put in the site of injection and releases the hormone in a relativly steady fashion dependant on the length of the ester.. My understanding is that its better to keep blood levels as stable as possible so yes even if it were something like enanthate youre still better off injecting every day.. Obviously youd adjust the amounts to comply with the weekly dosage!
On another note.. If the test were more likely to cause side effects for a certain individual theyd probably be better off to inject the test ed and the tren eod seeing as its not only overdosages that cause sides but also fluctuating blood levels?!
This is only my understanding of things im still an inexperienced user! Trying to learn as much as possible before i go using the advanced compounds.
This is outside my realm of knowledge...i wish i knew all the answers ha
Correct bro... but you certainly got yourself a healthy thread going on here
Yessir this question has been bothering for quite some time, and i wanted to hear what the eroids community has to say about it..
cdaddy7This what I understand it to be from the pathophysiology standpoint.... It's about the ligand binding....Tren is a PgR ligand with mixed agonist/antagonist activity... it also highly suppresses natural progesterone as well as alters its metabolism. Antagonist action at the PgR can be just as much an issue as agonist action....It's obvious that they have a similar structure and can travel the same metabolic pathways....understand that the Tren has affinity to bind stronger to the receptor...no fight just a stronger bind and no room for test...leaving the free test floating around to convert which gives the unwanted sides.....as u can see below
The androgen receptor (AR), also known as NR3C4 (nuclear receptor subfamily 3, group C, member 4), is a type of nuclear receptor [6] that is activated by binding of either of the androgenic hormones testosterone or dihydrotestosterone [7] in the cytoplasm and then translocating into the nucleus. The androgen receptor is most closely related to the progesterone receptor, and progestins in higher dosages can block the androgen receptor. [8][9]
The main function of the androgen receptor is as a DNA-binding transcription factor that regulates gene expression; [10] however, the androgen receptor has other functions as well. [11] Androgen regulated genes are critical for the development and maintenance of the male sexual phenotype.
But now of course ur not going to find clinical or medical studies on Tren bc this AAS was never approved for humans ....this is bc there is no medical value for such a powerful hormone....Tren has been used solely in the vet world esp in the bovine class for improving muscularity on cattle to produce quality meat at much faster rate and It's ability to cause food to be utilized to its maximum potential
zewiJUst had to bring in the science.. What you didnt like my Chicks and house and ferrari analysis..lmao.. good stuff brother.
cdaddy7No I def liked that analogy homie...Nitti was saying something about explaining it below with medical science so I was doing that.....Thanks Nitti....got f-bombed by Big poppy V!!!!! LMAO
I preffered the chicks and ferraris analogy too... i hate doctors fuck him lmao!
cdaddy7A glass of Haterade for my friend Vike if u please...LMAO!!!
lol.. i have no hate cells in my bod bro.. the tren ate em years back
and you got a +3
cdaddy7At the end of the day....Tren is a kickass compound that we will never really fully understand....but def must b handled with care or can be ur worst nightmare