Need help from PCT Gurus
I posted a picture earlier of my most recent labs. A short synapses of the dilemma.
I got bloods two weeks into my PCT to confirm LH and FSH were elevated (pct chems legit).
http://www.eroids.com/sites/default/files/gearpic/26814/image_6.jpg
I had bloods pulled last Friday about 5 weeks after PCT to determine if I had recovered.
http://www.eroids.com/sites/default/files/gearpic/26814/image_12.jpg
Here's the skinny.
Test levels during PCT were at 217, over the last 5 weeks they have risen to a grandiose 275, putting me clearly below the bottom line of 348.
I made the mistake of not getting bloods precycle (kicking myself super hard for that).
The pics confirm that my pct chems were legit as FSH was above high and LH was twice the high so I know I had a legit PCT.
Last thing: I feel ok,still have bacne as if. Was on cycle, I've made some gains post pct too. I went into pct at 232, dropped 10 and am now back to 226, so minus 6 pound from where I ended and I've kept the rest. Started at 213.
Questions:
How likely is it that my test was/has been shot prior to cycling?
Am I likely to recover and what/if any steps could I take to try and jump start my natty test?
I'm 25, the idea of TRT is not appealing. Any info would be appreciated. Thanks!
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Just got back from seeing the doc. He offered no real solutions or advice. My test levels went from 275 to 283, so no real movement. He basically told me to deal with it. Thyroid/FSH/LH/cholesterol/everything else came back perfect.
those levels are low but not totally out of the realm of normal. i personally wouldnt consider trt till i was under 200 but thats my choice, i know the difficulties that even t levels like you have can bring so i would make this decision as best informed and educated as possible. dont be rash trt is a life long devotion
At this point it's up to you bud. Your choices are blast and cruise or basic TRT. But you need to do your homework brother.
Right now I'm severely frustrated, I don't want to make a decision while under the influence of these emotions.. I understand what I'm looking at, requiring exogenous hormones forever is not appealing at all. Right now I keep thinking about the unknown. How different my life would/could be if I was leveled out. Either way, m gonna find a legit endo and get a second opinion.
Def. look for a new Endo and tell them you do not want TRT. From my research when I was going through the emotions, there are many that will work with you to try to boost those natty numbers with clomid/hcg treatments. Or just run another PCT. Have you thought about triptorelin?
Good luck bro! I hope you can straighten this out!
You are very wise to not make a decision while in an emotional state. And hell yes go to see another Endo....preferably one that specializes in TRT. Not to get a script but maybe they can shed some light as to your situation. Good luck bud!
Curious to see your results. I had mine done 6 days after pct ended, which was two weeks after my last labs and my test shot from 300 to 466. I have no idea what my baseline is but I have felt shitty. I'm thinking it's a head game cuz I want to be on cycle again lol. I plan on taking another test next week.
Good deal. I'm nervous/excited to see the results. I wouldn't be surprised if I had a thyroid issue, I've been struggling with this last bit of weight loss for 6 months.
Went to the doc this morning. New bloods to be taken tomorrow. Thyroid, lipid, and hormone panels with free, total, and serum test levels. Will update after test comes back.
What was your AI on cycle? That is a big contributor to your FSH and LH being so high and yes some HCG would bounce your test back in a quick manner. The question is; what is your new base line. Your doctor may use an HCG regiment if she is not too quick to jump the gun on trt. On the other hand, she has no reason to believe that your natural levels have been compromised so she might go straight to trt.
Really? How so? How do you know the nolvadex and clomid aren't responsible for the high LH????
AI's don't raise test levels. They just reduce the amount of conversion to estrogen.
Nolva and Clomid work to increase fsh, LH which corresponds to a raise in test levels.
Clomid blocks the effects of estrogen at the pituitary resulting in more testosterone production.
The problem here is his estrogen levels post pct are normal, which means he is Not shut down from estrogen!!
Maybe the OP should get a full blood test: thyroid, liver, etc check everything and make sure there isn't other stuff going on. thyroid levels could possibly offset test levels. This really is a complicated issue :( let's hope the doctor can figure something out.
Yes. AI's do not raise test....but they do lower estrogen. When the natural test level is low due to over active synthesized production of test and suppression of LH and FSH because the positive and negative feedback loops are compromised, then the result is to rebound by kicking up LH and FSH production to regain homeostasis when the cycle has ended and AI's or Serms are continued. This tells the natural test to start production asap. He has already gotten labs done and is awaiting the results of more labs. HCG will help natty production where LH and FSH increase alone would take months for recovery.
I would speculate that clomid and nolva being only serms would not increase FSH and LH so much in such a short time. He has an appointment on Monday with his doctor to cover these concerns. Hopefully it will work out.
No LH and FSH levels will not raise during cycle because the exogenous testosterone causes suppression. It is when the exogenous test is no longer suppressing when LF and FSH will begin to rise. AI is then dropped and clomid/nolva are the only things working at this point. The clomid and nolva are the reason fsh and LH rise during post cycle therapy.
This is just a hypothesis but I think the aromasin has potential to hamper the pct process if you continue to take it during pct. Remember Aromasin is a steroid, it is possible for the body to recognize it as an androgen. You don't want MORE androgens during pct.
I am still not sold on using aromasin during pct. The good old adex on cycle then clomid/nolva off cycle is tried and true and none of the complications of the pct including aromasin.
I am not saying that FSH and LH are raised during cycle rather I am saying they are raised after cycle using an AI. This is from my personal experience using Letro between cycles. I have labs to verify my beliefs. I agree with you up to the point that an AI after a cycle achieve different things.
His estro is in check his test is low but that may be mute considering he did not get precycle labs done so he has no base line. This is a perfect example of why it is important to get baseline bloods no matter your age. He is beating himself up but that is no reason to believe that he wasn't already low to begin with.
I am also in agreement with you on the Aromasin during PCT. However I do believe it can be used to curtail estro rebound in conjunction with Nolva and Clomid in extreme cases of high estradiol after cycle. Some have said it has it's benefits in PCT but I have not seen any labs to substantiate that claim. I am a firm believer in the power PCT method and have run my own labs to confirm the hypothesis. Power PCT is simply HCG,Nolva and Clomid over a period of about 45 days. HCG is run for 16 days at eod intervals. You can look at my profile and see the labs I have posted. In them I show a lab just before HCG and another two days after to show my test levels.
Yeah I am not saying AI's will do nothing to FSH or LH. But his LH were at the expected levels of someone taking clomid and nolva. The high lh and fsh was mostly due to clomid and nolv.
Yes it's possible he had low T levels before cycle. For example maybe he had testosterone of 400. After cycle and pct (that obviously didn't workout so well) he ended up lower. I have not seen many times where people's test levels are higher than pre so who knows. Like you said we will not be able to know, however with time it might rise on its own. Pct is not just clomid and nolva, but time also raises test. The body slowly but surely tries to balance back to normal. His FSH and LH are still somewhat high which means he is still in the process of raising test.
The 5 weeks after is not enough time to make sure test levels are back to where they need to be. Most people get bloods done 8-12 weeks after pct to make sure test levels are back to normal.
Estrogen rebound pretty much only happens from letro. So it's unnecessary to worry about that during a regular cycle. Not sure if you remember zewi, cdaddy and GS. Those guys are the ones that started the "aromasin during pct" bullshit. They made all of the stuff up and made posts for karma. That's the reason they got banned. I watched the whole thing happen. Meanwhile they posted ZERO hard evidence to prove anything about aromasin during pct or adex causing rebound. NONE. All they said was "uncle zewi ran aromasin during pct and his levels were back to normal after" or some nonsense like that. Basically the whole thing was made up.
The aromasin posts that they copied and pasted off the internet was their ticket to high karma. They also posted in cycle logs and used this new aromasin nonsense to give advice and give each other MORE +1's and this encouraged others to give them +1's because the information sounded good. Its a perfect setup. Convince everyone aromasin is "superior" and make up stories about estro rebound. Their ticket to high karma. It's all a lie.
Not saying aromasin is incapable of doing it's job, but I know not everyone responds best to asin. Adex has been around for much longer and go to any boards. It's the main recommended AI and works well. You will never hear about estrogen rebound from users of Adex during normal cycles. Of course if a person uses 2mg adex per day and 7 grams of test per week then all the sudden they stop taking adex, of course there will be rebound. But in a normal beginner cycle estrogen rebound will never happen with arimidex.
AnonHey J I like u man but u have no fuking clue about anything I did YEAH ME GS9902!!!!!!!!! I'd love to see any proof that I copied and pasted anything. And by Proof I mean from everybody including the MODS who banned me. That's not why I was banned.
And that Aromasin shit is real. How can u make up science? How is it that so many people post bloods on it now? And they're successful!
I mind my own fucking business but I'm sick of you guys who have no fucking clue what really happened talking shit about me. You guys have no fucking clue.
Watch here we go I'll get banned again for this but fuck it I'm sick of my name getting slandered. I helped so many guys on here for nothing. I never asked anyone but maybe Tread and Viking for advice. I have been a member for 2 fucking years and never karma whored shit. The shit everyone said when I was banned I know who said what and I see them doing the exact same shit they bashed me for.
OH and please enlighten me on how E2 rebound only happens from Letrozole? Adex is the same type of AI. But u must know something the rest of the doctors in america and the world must not know!!!
Well I'm not saying You copied and pasted. Maybe it was cdaddy idk, I do know that a lot of that information was pulled from the internet. Either way it doesn't matter if it was copied and pasted or not but there was ZERO proof of Adex causing rebound!!! Right the information wasn't made up. Yes it is the same type of AI as letrozole. That doesn't automatically means it will result in rebound just because letro often causes it.
The only "proof" of adex causing rebound was stating the fact that it is a type 2. Well sure but that's not good enough. Of course there is bloods of people using asin and having proper recovery from pct. If you reread my comment you will see that my hypothesis was that aromasin could be recognized by the body as an androgen. I know many people have successfully used it and had zero issues. As for adex and rebound, I have yet to see cases where this happened in a typical type of cycle. The very few scenarios I have ever seen in people that noticed a rebound with adex were taking mega doses and had extreme high test levels. Well in pct from a first cycle test levels will no longer be high 2 weeks after last injection so how can rebound happen during pct? Even if it does "rebound" won't last the full 4 weeks and nolva will block and effects in the breast tissue. A day of high estrogen isn't going to kill you, maybe a little irritible and bloated but thats part of PCT! It will normalize and the body will self regulate and return into a more balanced level. Again if test levels aren't sky high, estrogen rebound is unlikely because there is not enough test to convert to estrogen.
Ever since the whole spiel of aromasin info, it gave a false perception of arimidex being an inferior AI which is definitely not true!
AnonNobody ever said Adex would cause a catastrophic rebound from a humble cycle. All I have ever pointed out was that Arimedex is a Type II and based off of the design of the medication it can cause a rebound. Plainly put the number if Aromatase enzymes that were once locked by the adex become free once the medication has been discontinued. I didn't design adex. But whoever did made it this way. So whether people rebound or they don't doesnt negate the fact that by design it can theoretically lead to a rebound. In this game very few of us have doctors running our programs. So we can only take the information that is out there on the Internet like studies and medical journals to base out our protocols.
You make it sound like we were the first to come up with Aromasin as part of PCT. As much as I would love the credit it simply isn't so. I was just the first to truly dive into the idea of Aromasin for PCT here on Eroids. Based on the studies and proven benefits of Aromasin like I stated and listed on my Sticky there are many pros to using Aromasin for PCT. I never said Adex was inferior nor have I ever not run Adex myself. As a matter of fact I have. And plenty. I nearly tore my rotator cuff while using Adex as it dried me out horribly. It's great for keeping the skin tight and has a benefit in regards to prostate health. That one I learned from Tread himself. When I first came here in June of 2011 Adex was the AI of choice and still is for many. It was Treads AI that he recommended I use. Even now today I'd run ADex if I was to run a huge Deca cycle of greater than 800mg to 1200mg. Add some Dbol in the mix and u bet ur ass I'd pull out the big dog. U see I know what works for me down to a science. Nobody knows me better than me. Aromasin is softer on my lipids which while on Adex was an issue for me based on bloods and i was getting too dry to lift heavy. I played with the dosages enough to know what worked for me and what didn't but I personally like Aromasin. Hypertension and heart disease runs in my family so I try and limit negative impacts to my lipids where I can.
I meant what I said J about my thoughts on u. You are highly intelligent and honestly that's the kind of folks I enjoy debating. I just took some offense to the blanket statements about me. I was never given the chance to defend myself and I honestly dont think folks would believe me even if they heard my side of the story. Either way I add to the site as a contributing member whether it is under This name or my old one. I'm still pushing the envelope and trying to find newer ways to run cycles AIs and PCTs.
Eroids may hate me or like me it doesn't matter. But I just think its a bit unfair to make judgements on me without knowing the whole story. Only BFG, Noid, BB, Viking, Nitti know why I was lumped in with those guys. Believe me I was just as unhappy about some of the things they were doing but I couldn't distance myself from Them and their activities in time.
I can assure everyone who reads this that every word I say is spoken from the perspective of having used the same advice I give. I run every compound I advise on. I have years of real experience using these drugs and I promote a healthy lifestyle to every member I have ever come into contact with. I just have gotten a little lost at times and have paid the consequences. But ask anyone who truly knows me and they can attest that I am genuinely a good man and give of myself Freely without asking in return.
Well that's good to hear I'm glad you cleared that up for me. I was under the impression that between all the aromasin info being brought to eroids from you, zewi, and all those guys gave off the idea of arimidex being not only inferior but insufficient due to chance of rebound. That is really the way those posts, threads and discussions came out sounding. Maybe it's the way I viewed it that was off, but there was definitely a push for aromasin instead of adex at least at the time. You are right I did not know everything that went on behind the scenes. I do know what I saw and what I was told. But again it's an event that is long gone and the hatchet must be buried. I'm glad you are still with us and you have most certainly helped the eroids community with the information. A lot of people have a much better understanding on the use of AI's in general now as well as people have been running mostly successful cycles including aromasin. But you know as well as I do, what works for me may not work for others. I know damn well aromasin does not work for me. I'm very prone to bloat from estrogen, even with a clean diet. The high mg doses 12.5/25mg doesn't help either thats way too high. Aromasin is absorbed very quickly by my body and the 27 hour half life is inaccurate for my body. Same thing with adex though, I have to take adex daily. My body metabolizes things quicker, at least it seems. When I took aromasin I was dried out joints by noon, irritable, and all the other signs of low estro, then by evening my nipples were puffy, I was bloated and constipated and lethargic. Maybe that's just me but there have been NEW studies stating aromasin's half life is different in men than in women! Aromasin is a much newer AI and has the lack of studies to back it up, which adds to the complications. But the new studies are suggesting it's half life is much shorter than 27 hours. Maybe this would explain my reaction to aromasin. I do know I'm not the only one who has these weird effects from taking aromasin. But aromasin is a steroidal AI, has a strange half life, from as short as 4 hours to long as 27 hours still unproven. We also know that aromasin is metabolized by the cytochrome p450 enzyme in the Liver! Same as nolvadex!! Many people can not take nolvadex usually people who take ssri's or other drugs that also metabolize by that enzyme have troubles using aromasin, or nolva due to the way it is metabolized. This would explain the rate in which it is metabolized because it can vary in people. The way aromasin is metabolized is different than the way adex is. Another hypothesis of aromasins duration of action is the rate at which people synthesize new aromatase enzymes. This could vary in people and add to the complications of dosing schedules.
Maybe I just like to follow an old school approach, if it ain't broke don't fix it. I just have not seen proof of adex being broke. In a highly complicated field of study - hormones and endocrine system, we must use everything we can to help! Ruling out a drug due to possible chance of rebound is not good! We need to fully utilize all the tools we are given until a new better more effective drug comes out to replace these drugs. As you can see I am not a believer in aromasin at least not in MY body. But I still tell people that they need to try both and see what works best for them! That's truly what makes this a unique and complicated situation is the way it affects everyone in such a different way! To be honest I'm sure Aromasin is also capable of causing a rebound due to the body over synthesizing more enzymes due to AE being permanently bound! That's just a claim I have no proof to back that up but I'm stating my point - anything is possible. Will people still use asin even if this is possible? Yes, because it is still an effective AI !
So there you have it bro, I don't want to battle any longer and I will not be talking about the drama that happened long time ago involving the bans. But I love discussing stuff like this in hopes to either learn something new or have a better understanding overall.
AnonWell said and great points. I could talk to u all day about this shit bro. Especially the metabolization rates. Which from our pms regarding ur diet n such u metabolize so fast ur high cal diet just is t enough for u. Like Nitti. Dude has to eat 5kcal just for maintenance. Some of u freaks are just blessed with that. I on the other hand have to restrict everything as I have a slower metabo and am super sensitive to Adex. Dude u should start a thread about these topics. We could chat all day in there without jacking Al's thread
High metabolism is both a blessing and a curse. Good because it's hard for me to put fat on. Bad because its hard to put mass on! I need to inject prop daily or I get acne and feel a strong drop, I inject longs m/w/f even though 2x a week is sufficient for most. Adex daily more stable. Anyways yea finals for the next 2-3 weeks but after that I might have enough time to put together a post! Hopefully I can find some quality info and studies to bounce ideas off of. Gonna stop jacking this thread =P
My FSH and LH are fairly normal and estrogen is in check. Everything looks great except my test. Hahahaha ha. Fml
I'll definitely ask for a full blood panel. Thanks bud.
My AI was aromasin 10mg a day, I dialed that in with bloods. Basically I got all my blood work except for precycle bloods. Fawk. Hahaha
Yeah live and learn bud. I wish you the best of luck. Let us know what the doc says.
AnonWhat was the cycle? Any 19nors?
Cycle was test e for 12 weeks, two week prop taper into pct
Clomid: 100/100/50/50
Nolvadex: 20/20/20/20
Aromasin: 6.25 EOD
It was my first cycle so no 19nor's. just a plain jane test cycle.
AnonI'm thinking some HcG might do u good
I'm really wondering what ur baseline was pre cycle bro
I wish I did blood work precycle as well. I've got some HCG coming, along with some Iranian clomid/nolva that I bought for my next cycle.
My FSH and especially my LH were super elevated during PCT. Do you think elevating them again will lead to greater natty test. I got bloods in the middle of my PCT
FSH : 12.5 in a scale of 1.5 - 12.4
LH : 15.9 on a scale of 1.7 - 8.6
This is why i got bloods precycle, im feeling like i done the best thing now
my levels came back shitty though like 380, which is pretty low for my age.
Not alot you can do about figuring out if your test has recovered, maybe wait a few months then do another blood test, if its still about the same level, then thats your t level. And also speak to a doctor if its concerning you, do you have any symptoms of low T? Like depression, low sex drive? Much morning wood? If you dont have these symptoms then why get on to trt? No need to fix it if it isnt even a problem.
Yup, really wish I had gotten my precycle bloods. Honestly, my libido has been in the tank, I've been dealing with bacne since PCT but then I went through some pics and it looks like I've had bacne for the last couple of years. I wouldn't say I've suffered from any depression, I wake up every morning feeling great, by night though its a different story. I've always thought it was the low carbs that make me feel like shit at night, now I'm rethinking it.
What were your levels before cycle? You may have been low in test to begin with which would make you a trt candidate to begin with.
This is what I wrote on the pic :(
http://www.eroids.com/pics/recovery-not-guaranteed.
Sorry bud I didn't do my homework before I responded. I would wait 4 months from pct and then do labs again. That's a good amount of time for your body to return to homeostasis. That would be a good representation of what your levels are. Or you could enlist the help of a doctor and get a legit opinion on the matter. I would do both just to be sure and then make an educated decision on trt.
I've got pretty legit health insurance. I'm going to see the doc on Monday. Looking back, I feel this may be something I've been struggling with for a whole. We'll see, thanks for your help bud.
FYI do not talk about your cycle history with your MD. I know the general school of thought is to not hold anything back or lie.....but what difference does it make what you did in the past? What matters is where your at now. The reasoning behind my logic is insurance. Some companies are against using steroids and may not cover your trt needs or test if they believe it is a direct result of your cycles and steroid usage.
I'm definitely not going to tell her. She's an HRT specialist so I think when she sees my numbers she'll now what to do. Appreciate the heads up.
Ever hear of Triptorelin? I don't know the specifics but in studies it had showed that men who used as little as one dose were able to make a complete test recovery in as little as 5 days. I would do more research on the matter because I know little about it, but a top peptide source on here sells it cheap.
I've done a little research. From what I've read there's one study on one guy. I know xvbeast used it i his most recent PCT but I don't think he reported any difference in recovery.
Really? One study on one guy... Haha how lame is that
Yeah, I didn't find much after that. Lol