+ 1 Expired Genotropin?
I just got my Genotropin but it looks like it was expired 12/2013. What do you guys think? Does the effectiveness drop off right after it expires? Any other risk of using expired HGH? If I would have known, I wouldn't have ordered it...
Also how good are Genotropins if left unrefrigerated? I'm having some doubts about how they were transported. My source said it came from Europe and it looks like it took about 2 weeks to get to him before he shipped it to me. If it was not refrigerated during that time or even before, would that make it go bad?
I'll be getting my blood test in 2 weeks, but just in general, should I be concerned about that in the future? I guess there's nothing I could do but ask the source ahead of time and either trust what they say or don't...
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@boosted_180 with all the drama did you ever get the information you were looking for?
There are too many variables on how they may have been stored to give you a definitive answer on your products current strength. High heat will degrade the product faster. IMO There is no way of telling for sure without Bloods, even if it is within its expiration date. Good Luck!
Well that was a fun read.
@SmartMan pick another name! Hang around a lil while, learn a lil bit, then try to be helpful by commenting on what you know!
http://www.health.harvard.edu/fhg/updates/update1103a.shtml
Posted by Greg!
kupovinasuplemenata2Mr. Gorila You're acting like a child! 52 years? I can not believe!
Key points from article...
What they found from the study is 90% of more than 100 drugs, both prescription and over-the-counter, were perfectly good to use even 15 years after the expiration date.
90% NOT A HUNDRED PERCENT!
100 drugs.....IS AMONG THESE 100 DRUGS HGH?
Excluding nitroglycerin, insulin, and liquid antibiotics, most medications are as long-lasting as the ones tested by the military.
EXCLUDING INSULIN? Insulin is a peptide hormone...Does it ring any bells? Come on, you're a smart man!
Hey Bud, The primary comment by smartman I was referring to which is completely wrong is this:
This is completely wrong yet he bases his entire rant on it.
BTW your capitalization is a lil childish!
kupovinasuplemenata2MR.Gorila...How do did you prove that it is wrong?
The article does not mention the growth hormone!
We're not talking here about aspirin but about GH!
Why have you ignored this?
Excluding nitroglycerin, insulin, and liquid antibiotics, most medications are as long-lasting as the ones tested by the military.
In your article you reference to says that it does NOT apply to insulin.
What about that?
Insulin is a lot more similar to growth hormone than the aspirin if I'm not mistaken?
BTW So sad that you're "expert" here and give minuses to people who know a lot more than you!
TOTALLY WRONG SYSTEM!
I negged you for your unprovoked attack on another eroids member. I will gladly reverse that if you issue an apology.
You are creating an argument where there is none.
The link was to support MY claim that drugs ALL DRUGS past, present, and future, are to be GUARANTEED to be 100% effective up to the expiration date. All other information in the article is irrelevant to the discussion at hand. Interesting, but irrelevant.
Actually 2 links were used to get the same point across:
http://www.drugs.com/article/drug-expiration-dates.html
http://www.health.harvard.edu/fhg/updates/update1103a.shtml
Gorillafit DID NOT reference the article for any other reason than these TWO SENTENCES
Smartman made these claims. Are you of the same mind and support them as well?
Please take the time to read the entire thread before you continue to needlessly berate a long time respected member of this site for a non issue. No one is claiming that hgh was considered in the study or that it should be presumed that hgh should last 15 years beyond expiration.
BTW son I'm 55. Respect your elders.
kupovinasuplemenata2I respect people because they deserve my respect and not because they are older or have more posts on some forum! I know you have 55 and i have not dis respect you for a reason although i disagree with you on some topics. You dont talk cocky,you talk about topic and accept possibility that maybe you're wrong . Mr. Gorila provoked me with his unnecessary smartass comment to smart men that hi need to learn a lot more. He lost my respect from day one with his cocky comment about my deca who had no connection with topic.
Now...I dont think that GH (PHARMA GH) is useless till expiration date and i think that potency start to decline after. How much? I dont think that manufactures know. It is not exactly exact science and FDA barely accepted their metods for determination of exp. date. We can only SPECULATE! Now this is true if you store GH perfectly by manufacturer recomendation most of the time but problem you and guy that started this topic did not get GH on prescription and take it from pharmacy you ordered from net and who can guarantee that your GH been stored properly FOR 3 YEARS? I would not belive so much some source who runs a business of illegal sale of drugs. It is ok to have trusted source but i always take everything they say with a grain of salt.
Ahh, hold a grudge much? So your whole reason for entering this conversation and connection with this topic is I once corrected you on a deca conversation? So you thought this poorly thought out attempt was an opportunity to turn the tables. OOPs, pick a better fight next time! Cocky yes, but also accurate!
kupovinasuplemenata2Ok i understand you have 52 and take "GH" with God know what chemicals that obviously affect the brain...I told that i got into this conversation because you downgrade member of this forum by smartass comment and again you are not right! Only thing that smartmen is wrong is that GH degrades before expiration date and you dont have any proof how long will GH be good after expiration. But would not surpise me that's for you expiration date is same regardless of the drug. Btw you did not correct me about deca because topic was HGH and you just tried to be smartas with your deca comment. I dont have to turn tables with a man of your inteligence and attitude my frend
MY brain is fully functional! The member not unlike your self continued to argue an invalid point regardless of the FACTS presented to him! You brought up Deca in your rant. I just assumed it was from another post.
I'd say he brought the comment on himself with a handle like smartman making false statements then arguing the point adnauseum. Just seemed ironic to me! Possibly you could learn a lesson from this but somehow I doubt it!
So yes, smartman was completely wrong and needs to learn more before making totally false statements then continuing to argue his incorrect statements, even when reality is made evident to him.
In the future, just for you, I will put flowers and scented candles at the end of my comments regarding inaccurate comments. Thank you for your concern!
kupovinasuplemenata2The flowers will be enough. Thank you LOL
I don't see how he could have provoked you as he was addressing Smartman. Smartman himself invited the critique when he said this:
Smartman is a member who has only been on the site for a day or two.He arrogantly spews his misinformed opinions around as knowledge and fact. He then staunchly stood by his claims even when faced with actual facts that contradicted him. Smartman DOES need to learn a lot more.
The reply you made in was unjustified. You misunderstood the point of the post and started making false accusations. And you taunted him with the age thing.
You might say you provoked me with your unnecessary smartass comment about age.
I have a hard time believing you would have responded in such a way if you took the time to read the thread first.
kupovinasuplemenata2I admit i have not read the whole topic but Gorila cold leave link and explain his opinion and try to educate and not downgrade other opinions on such way and make smartass comments. He does not have to provoke me directly to feel provoked. If he said the same thing TO YOU or anyone else here I would have reacted the same again. I do not like people who degrade other in such a way. Smartmen may be right, and maybe not but at least attempting to explain his opinion in a polite manner with more than one sentence. I dont think he is arogant he just have different opinion and if you think different you need to convince him otherwise.
IMO Smartman is both polite and arrogant. Just because he can be polite does not mean he can't be called out when posting misinformation.
We will gave to agree to disagree.
kupovinasuplemenata2If you say something stupid i will never say to you you dont have idea and tell you you need to learn more in a cocky way. I will try to convince you, explain you and other people that read this forum WITH MORE THAN ONE SENTENCE that you are note right. Way you did not say like 52 year gorila stay hear you need to learn more without YOUR explanation? You tried to explain to him and other members in MORE THAN ONE SENTENCE or just some copy paste bulshit. I agree with your last sentence!
Maybe this is a cultural or language issue. Or, perhaps you're reading Gorillafit's comment with a little bias based on a previous run in?
Let's brake it down:
Well that was a fun read. Translation: I have read the entire thread. I have listened to the argument from both sides. There is nothing more to add. At this point we are beating a dead horse.
@SmartMan pick another name! Hang around a lil while, learn a lil bit, then try to be helpful by commenting on what you know! Translation: If you are going to continue calling yourself smartman at least make sure your facts are straight. If you want to prevent yourself from being embarrassed I would invite you to hang around a little while and watch. Learn from others, and share what you know not what you think you know.
http://www.health.harvard.edu/fhg/updates/update1103a.shtml Posted by Greg! Translation: Here is a link posted by Greg that answers the question, once and for all, about the expiration date.
To me, it sounds like he was offering some sage advice -being he's so old and all ;-)
I was much harsher and blunt by the end of my discussion with smartman
kupovinasuplemenata2I do not believe we will ever agree on this issue...And We went totally off topic
You explained his behavior in his own way and I would have explained it in a completely different way and Obama on a totally different way, etc. etc.
Yes it is true that I am looking Mr. Gorila with prejudice but that does not mean that I would have reacted differently if not so and "attacked" him for no apparent reason.
I know a lot smarter people who are much younger than me and I'm not ashamed to admit it and I never connected the age with wisdom and knowledge especially when we talk about this topic.
Maybe you were harsher but the writing did not have an offensive and personal tone and you tried to explain WITH MORE THAN ONE SENTENCE!
Well that was a fun read.@SmartMan pick another name! Hang around a lil while, learn a lil bit, then try to be helpful by commenting on what you know!
This is not the way to lead the discussion regardless of how one's opinion is different than yours!
Communication does not require paragraph upon paragraph to get ones point across.
I feel after reading the entire discussion that one sentence was more than enough advice!
No Attack, simply advice!
Here is some advice for you considering your current tendency to down vote is approx 2 to 1.
Your down votes have no effect, until you have earned at least 50 karma. So use your knowledge, write some posts, be helpful, then once you get enough karma you can continue your journey to right the wrongs throughout the site.
And here is a rule you may be interested in:
DO NOT tag "downvote" simply because you disagree with the poster.
kupovinasuplemenata2Oh man...You did not quite understand Why do I say it's not okay that a man like you has the status of Expert and give minuses.The reason is that you are not qualified.
Your level of knowledge on the subject of growth hormone is apparently low.And somehow ONLY YOU can explain everything in JUST ONE SENTENCE LOL.
You imagined because a couple of GH tests that you have done that you're some kind of GH expert.
I only "downvote" you because simply I DONT LIKE YOU
To me yours or anyone else's minuses does not mean anything. And the only reason I mention it is woefully that one with your level of knowledge has a status of some Expert. You need these pluses/karma because you need some online source to get your gear and that you get free stuff etc.
Guess what, it does not need to me and I ordered one time out of curiosity. I posted pic out of respect for him because a man that sell,source from here really bothered to get that deca to me.
And Guess what you old man, in my country steroid are legal. I dont have to hide and breaking the law as you old man.
I walk into a pharmacy and buy like you at Walmart Testosterone Depo,Testovis, Deca Norma,Proviron Schering,Astrazeneca nolvadex and Arimidex,clomid,Pregnyl Organon,Actrapid, novorapid etc ALL PHARMA and best of all i walk in pharmacy each month,give paper and get Norditropin pens FOR FREE . PHARMA GH old man.
The point of all these storie is that I do not need yours or anyone else's pluses. I only do not like that man of your level of knowledge has the status of an Expert!
Oh, now your just hurting my feelings!!!
Done ranting?
Your like or dislike of me means absolutely nothing, your rambling about all the pharma you can purchase means nothing to me. I have more than enough to use and share. And when I need more I'll simply buy it.
If your lucky you will someday reach my age.
As far as my status, I've earned this karma by being a community member and trying to help people. My level of knowledge is growing all the time. Unfortunately for you it looks like your done learning since you seem to think you know everything already. Except how to read and comprehend. I'll keep an eye on you and your posts to see if I can test my knowledge?
kupovinasuplemenata2Yes you will buy it .and give min. 10 times more money for something non pharma and underdose in the best case. What a deal! And again you dont read what I wrote. I said that I can not learn anything new about GH FROM YOU. And now im bored with all this offtopic talking. I think we should stop with all this. I promise i will learn how to post flowers
Once again your wrong, regarding price and dosing. I buy QUALITY steroids at great prices. The majority backed by lab tests.
Here free lesson:
! [ ] (*******) Don't use any spaces.
No it doesn't nor does it mention the other 100 tested drugs specifically. But it does mention the law. The law does not exclude any drugs! The only exceptions they speak of are the certain drugs that don't last 15 years AFTER expiration.
BTW, Obviously you don't understand the system and are making a wrong assumption that I negged you.
kupovinasuplemenata2Gorila LOL
Do you know when a growth hormone that we now take become commercially available?
1985
so in 1979 the law did not know that there is that technology.
And AGAIN why avoiding comment on Insulin?
Insulin NOT Recommended to be taken after the expiry by yours article.
When the drug became available does not exclude it from the law!
There is no need to comment on Insulin. It is stated in the article! And the reason it is, IMO is that taking a dose of insuin that is less than what it should be could cause issues up to death. Taking expired HGH for extracurricular activities that is not as strong as it should be would have little to no detrimental effect!
NEXT
He started his post with,
Meaning he was making a comment on the discussion within this thread.
THE key point in the article with relation to the post and following discussion is NOT what you've outlined but this,
His reposting of my link is what I believe to be a "cut to the chase" that drugs are to be Guaranteed 100% effective by the end of their expire date (contrary to what Smartman stated incorrectly below) I do not believe he was suggesting nor endorsing using hgh 15 years past expiration.
In your quote of the article you missed the point that 90% were perfectly good to use even 15 years after the expiration date. Not 3 months but 15 YEARS
So with question as to hgh being good 3 months past expiration; IMO there is little to worry about and I've outlined the reasons why I feel that way below.
kupovinasuplemenata2Greg...I'm not getting into that debate but just saying that THIS article proves nothing.
What if these 90% are Tablets? Can one compare growth hormone with aspirin, generalize and say if it is ok to take aspirin after the expiration then it is true for growth hormone?
No mention of HGH in article...The only thing similar to the HGH is insulin...1981 began to produce HGH that we know today,in 1985 he began to commercially use so yours reference "1979" is outdated and at the end you can not not compare tablets, with growth hormone and all put in the same basket.
Growth hormone is a totally different technology than most drugs!
And what about insulin? Why Insulin can not be taken after the exp?
I don't know where they come from Greg?
Two peas in a pod. Can't help but feel that they are related somehow.
kupovinasuplemenata2AGAIN...52 years? I can not believe!
I know right? he looks like he's only 36 years old. He's a regular "Benjamin Button" that one. ;-)
kupovinasuplemenata2You just lost my respect with this! So childish and cocky attitude!
I'm crushed ;-(
kupovinasuplemenata2HA HA HA
very funny old man.
:-)
Okay guys we don't need to be name-calling here, this is a pretty good conversation if you ask me. Let me sum all this up.
We are not buying these prescription from a pharmacy. We all know the risks and where all these products come from. My main concern with these were I would get fake, unwrapped cartridges. But they are not. They came sealed in their boxes with all the information. But… They are expired.
Should the source have mentioned it? Yes. But he didn't. Maybe he doesn't even know they are expired. If you read thru his posts a.k.a. the source, his English is not at all very good. I noticed this right away. So I expected a hiccup somewhere along the line.
But the guy delivered fast, he communicates right away and he never gave me a problem. He did bloodwork on the exact cartridge and posted them before I bought so I knew what I was getting. Compared to a another source I unfortunately dealt with here that sent horrible fakes, had terrible delivery time and lies upon lies I'm very satisfied right now.
Let's see how they turn out and go from there. And come on gentleman let's make this a good conversation.
HGH isnt as fragile as once thought. My Serostims are too be stored at room temp until mixed.
Ive always found if things are stored well,,,expire dates dont matter much,,,your stuff will most likely
still be good.
thanks for everyone's responses. if I'm not mistaken, not all hgh necessarily turns cloudy if it goes bad. norditropin uses some specific preservative just so you can see the cloudiness if it goes bad. not sure it genotropin or other hgh does this.
but in any case, I have it already and am using it. i'll know with a blood test in a few weeks.
but in the future, I guess I gotta ask my sources ahead of time. it wasn't cool of him to not be upfront aobut the expiration date though. other than that, service/ t/a/ communication was good.
Agree with you. Should have mentioned they expired before selling them. That wasn't good business practice. I'm using them too. So far sleeping like a rock.
Have you spoken to him about it? Odds are he may not have known himself. Needless to say, if you've followed the conversation, 3 mo past expiration is the least of your concern.
I asked him and he said he didn't know, BUT he assured me that it was still effective. His English wasn't all that great, but I think that's what he was trying to tell me. Overall, good service, like I said, but it would have been nice to know in advance if it was expired. And my other concern is how the gear was stored all that time. If it was refrigerated, then even after expiration, it wouldn't worry me so much, but if it was taken care of well or got stuck in a hot container somewhere for weeks before it got to him, then that would be a bigger problem. But the only way to know for sure if it's still effective is with a blood test, which I'll be doing soon.
SmartManIf he's followed the conversation then he'll have picked up on the fact that the expiry date is a massive issue and that you're also full of yourself!
I cannot recall for certain but aren't they pens (already mixed)? If so look at the liquid, if the liquid is clear I would venture a guess that they are still ok, if the liquid is cloudy forget about it..
SmartManNo they come unmixed. The cartridges are 2 chamber cartridges, one chamber contains the powder, the other contains the liquid.
Expiration dates are there for a reason, but I would take it. That's just me though. It might be less potent but it's not like it's chemical values have changed and now it's anthrax KWIM?
SmartManI'll answer your questions as accurately as possible. I've broken down your questions so that they can be individually answered, which will hopefully ease your reading and allow you to understand the answers more efficiently.
Firstly you asked the following question:
"I just got my Genotropin but it looks like it was expired 12/2013. What do you guys think?"
The expiry date does matter a lot. Each Pfizer Genotropin Qo-Quick pen has a shelf life of 3 years, if they're stored at the appropriate temperature (2-8°C), they'd survive their shelf life. However, considering your Genotropin has exceeded it's expiry date by almost 3 months, the chance of their being any potency left is looking very slim. I'd almost be certain in saying that they're going to be completely degraded. Let's not forget that your source probably didn't constantly store these pens in a refrigerator the whole 3 years. Also were they shipped with cool packs? If not then there's an even lesser chance they they're still potent.
Your next questions are as follows:
Does the effectiveness drop off right after it expires?
No, the effectiveness has already been slowly declining over the years. The expiry date is the date you should've used the Genotropin by, by the end of the expiry date they're pretty much useless. The potency had been slowly declining over the years until it reaches it expiry date and it's completely degraded. You also need to remember that 3 years is a long time and there's a good chance that during these 3 years something might have happened to the rHGH, like it might have been stored in direct sunlight or left out of the refrigerator, this doesn't sound too far fetched considering he sent you this expired product in the first place, I'd say he's at the bottom of the trust scale.
Any other risk of using expired HGH?
Yes, it may contain bad bacteria which may harm your body. However, the main worries are; it's a waste of needles/syringes, it's a waste of space in your refrigerator and a waste of an injection site.
Also how good are Genotropins if left unrefrigerated? I take it you mean in it's unmixed state? If so then this quote from Pfizer might help you out:
'It is also possible to store your unmixed GENOTROPIN outside the refrigerator, but under 25°C, for one month as long as the expiry date has not passed.'
It would survive one month if your expiry date hadn't of passed.
In conclusion, don't inject it, it's completely degraded.
Impressive how you state your opinion as fact SmartMan.
If an elevator that has a sign that says, "MAX WEIGHT 2000 lbs" will the cable break if ten 200 lb men get on and one is carrying a chiquaua?
Do you think all the milk in a processed batch goes bad as soon as the date stamped passes?
Do you think a doctor will want to prescribe hgh that is only 33% effective because it is 2 years old but has not passed the expiration?
You contradict yourself in the shipping with the need for a cold pack then follow up with Pfizers 77 degree storage for one month.
And just how does the bacteria get inside the sterile cartridge?
SmartManApologies Greg if I came across as stating facts rather than opinions, that was not my intention. Also sorry if I somehow offended you, I'm only apologizing as you seem rather annoyed with me, maybe I'm getting the wrong impression here.
Some of what I said were facts. However, the majority of what I said was opinions, you're correct about that.
Ok let's take a lot at what you said, you've made some very good points and I'll try and explain my 'opinion' as best as possible.
Firstly, you said the following two rhetorical questions:
"If an elevator that has a sign that says, "MAX WEIGHT 2000 lbs" will the cable break if ten 200 lb men get on and one is carrying a chiquaua?"
"Do you think a doctor will want to prescribe hgh that is only 33% effective because it is 2 years old but has not passed the expiration?"
SmartManNo is the answer to both of those questions. However, both aren't relevant to what I originally said. You don't understand how quickly both mixed/reconstituted and unmixed rHGH degrades, I do. I only know because I've been in direct contact with someone who works at Pfizer as I've been in the same boat as OP, these same questions have cropped up in my mind before. Pfizer give their products expiry dates for a reason, they don't choose a date that they think is the minimum time rHGH can last, they choose a date that is the absolute maximum the rHGH can survive and their Genotropin products can last 3 years, which let's face it is a very long time. Then let's take into account how OP's source has most likely stored these products, I doubt the same source who sells him expired products will constantly store this Genotropin in the fridge constantly for 3 long years, do you? Even if Pfizer weren't being generous with their expiry date, OP's Genotropin has passed the expiry date by 3 months and it was shipped to him without any sort of temperature controller for 2 weeks and you're arguing that this Genotropin may still have some potency left in it, are you really arguing that?
Also I haven't contradicted myself. I said the ideal way to ship rHGH would be a jiffy bag with a cool pack. I didn't say it'll degrade if it's not shipped with a cool pack. I said even if it's not shipped with a cool pack then it can survive one month anyway, so in future he has nothing to worry about if he buys products that haven't passed their expiry date by 3 months.
My quote from Pfizer is a fact. You can't argue with that.
I don't know how the bacteria gets into the cartridge, I don't claim to know. But there's no way you can argue that bacteria doesn't get into the cartridge, because that's why rHGH degrades in the first place.
No business is going to open themselves up to a lawsuit by selling a product that does not do as advertised.
No doctor is going to prescribe hgh to a child without knowing with utmost certainty its effectiveness and dose.
To expect that anyone (including insurance companies) would pay for such an expensive product that is anything less than 100% is ridiculous. If I was a consumer from Pfizer I would be demanding frequent, small batch shipments of product no less than a few days old otherwise I would feel I was getting gypped. This is not a way to do business.
The relevance of my elevator and milk scenario was to demonstrate ALL businesses who are interested in NOT getting into litigation will seek out the worst case and even then buffer that by a hefty percent. Pfizer included.
There are several things that can cause the molecular structure of hgh to break down (sometimes stored in a vacuum). But I doubt if bacteria is one of them. If it pre exists in the cartridge, it's dormant, bacteria would not need 3 years to do its job.
As soon as it's mixed you have introduced other foreign elements, e.g., water, needles, into the hgh. With improper handling you can introduce bacteria that will make itself known within a few days.
As for the shipping and handling the only thing you can be certain about is that you can't be certain; and has nothing to do with the expiration.