+ 2 Need some help
Been around here for a while and up until about 6 months ago, never had a problem recovering from a cycle. I can say that I foolishly started taking AAS when I was about 20 to try and recover from a football injury faster. In the beginning I didn't pct and only stopped when money ran out.
Ive been on here for about 3 years now and learned a shit ton. Over the past couple of years I have watched my baseline score gradually drop in all my precycle bloods. I was at 725 at age 22, 684 at 24, 548 at 25 and now (5 months removed from last cycle), my bloods are at 300.
My last cycle was 250mg test ew, 30-40mg var ed, 600 bold cyp ew. I did my normal PCT protocol which is below:
week after last pin:
HCG 1000iu EOD for a total of 5,000iu
2.5 weeks after last pin:
Clomid- 200/150/100/50
Nolva- 40/40/20/20
I did not get post pct labs this time, due to a huge move and new job I was loaded with little free time.
After this PCT I noticed a dip in energy and strength but it was never uncommon for me to experience this. Then i moved south, got married and a couple weeks after I really started to notice I didn't feel right. I was sluggish, non motivated to do anything, sleep patterns disrupted, didnt want to eat much, sex drive dipped, muscle loss (slightly), BF increased and could not drop it, joints hurting, brain fog feeling, memory loss and anxiety about how I was feeling weird.
Well I thought this all may be tied to my thyroid. My last endo told me thyroid can throw off the entire endocron system. I had been off my t3 for a couple months as we just moved and insurance had not started. So I got back on, I take 150mcg ED so its not a great thyroid I have. Few weeks went by and I still felt like shit. I went to see a new endo who specializes in reproductive endocrinology.
Initially set up appointment for me but just found out I am going to be a dad! Which is awesome but I still feel like shit. He took blood and my results are as follows:
Testosterone- 300 scale 348-1197
E2- 41
TSH- 4.5 (with high antibodies count)
LH 2.2
FSH- 1.8
He said my 300 was a good score. When he said that I about flipped my shit. I told him thats good for a 70 year old. He said he had some things for me to try. I had an appointment to go back in 5 weeks.
In between I did Dr.Sullys power pct program which is almost what my standard is. Doc retested and I was still at 303.
Doc prescribed me 2 things to do:
- Take Letrozole at 1.25mg EW.
- Supplement (in addition to my T3): DHEA, B Complex, D3, Alpha Lipoic Acid and CoQ10
Now I worked at GNC for some time so I know exactly what those all do. I dont think any of those will do what a power PCT could not. So now I have been on everything above for 2 weeks and I still feel like a horses ass. The memory part seems to worsen by the day. My lack of ambition and drive is starting to affect my work performance. And my sex drive is gone. When I do get hard it fades after 5 minutes.
Can anyone give me guidance? This endo is supposed to be the best around. People come from other states to see him. I am getting a second opinion soon but what if he says the same thing?
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Yes, if you lower estrogen your testosterone will rise. Is this a healthy long term treatment, no. Individuals taking 2.5mg of letro a week can have test serum over 1k.
If you want to treat you low testosterone, you may want to see a urologist. In my experience, they know more than endos, in regards to testosterone.
Wont this just crash my estro??? Then im back to feeling like shit again.... He has me start taking 1.25 per week
It could. I take 1.25 of letrozole a week with 50mg Test E and 10mg Test P every three days. My estrogen is always below 15. I feel great everyday.
I do not respond well to arimidex or aromasin.
Just got bloods back from testing yesterday... everything is in normal range other than Test...
Test Taken at 9:00AM
Test 316 Scale 348-1197
Estro: 25.5 Scale 7.6-42.6
FSH: 1.9 Scale 1.5-12.4
LH: 2.8 Scale 1.7-8.6
Getting my own bloods pulled this wed. Female hormone with cbc. Any other tests you all recommend. I feel like absolute trash. I am so tempted to hit 50mg prop EOD just to see if I feel better and use that as my base argument when I see the doc... obviously dont want to self prescribe but holy shit am I at the lowest point ever.
what do you all think?
I would do a T3 & T4 and maybe a reverse T3 just because your TSH can be inaccurate. My TSH never went above 5.0 but my T4 was off the bottom of the range/chart. My T3 was high but I was under a lot of stress and never had my reverse t3 checked. I was dead tired after an hour ( felt like I was dragging an anchor) in the morning and then a vegetable the rest of the day.
Everyone is different, ........for me, thyroid makes more of a difference than testosterone.
Thanks for the input! I know my doc already checks t4 and t3 and tsh for my hypothyroid but reverse t3 ive never heard of. What do they do in that instance. I get nervous taking 150mcg thats alot
Reverse T3 is created by your body when your under stress. It is bio unavailable to your body but still register's as T3.
hmmmmm, ill have the doc check this weekend when I go back in. I am doing private bloods tomorrow and will see where I am for everything. Something has to give though
150 mcg,.............. I'm approx double that amount.
And to be clear, it is by script and a lot of blood testing.
yeah shit I am nervous about my thyroid. Ive been getting tested for about 1.5 years now and they still havent found the appropriate level of t3 to administer. Started with 25mcg and have been going up. I have Hashimotos disease so my thyroid works in a roller coaster pattern. One day it functions at 80% then 20% then 30% then 90% then back down.
I cant seem to get my TSH level under 4 though and they tell me thats good cuz im back in range but man in HS and early college I was right around 2.
I finally have my Dr. trained to ignore my TSH ( last blood test it was around .015, no typo ), but my T4 and T3 were finally in range. His exact words, " I guess your TSH doesn't work,....... so lets ignore it ". I've been on thyroid meds for a couple of years. If I start to vibrate or I get chest tightness I know enough to dial it back. But life is finally worth living again.
Baldur2630Trust your doctor, he won't let you die, it isn't in his best interests, but he'll make sure that you need to visit him frequently and often to keep his cash register ringing.
He'll be able to put you on tranquilizer and sedatives and plenty of new pills so that he can get his freebies from the pharmaceutical companies for using you as a guinea pig!
One of the guys at the gym has a similar problem. He's been to 5 doctors and. 2 different Endos. He got a prescription today - an injection of 250 mg Sustanone every two months and he has to go to his doctor for the injection (and pay of course).
God help him in that recipe! Of course your doctor ALWAYS knows best, even if he does ask you why you would ever want to have an erection.
why the hell woudl that doc do sust for trt.... those esters are terrible if only administered once a week let alone 1 time every 2 months. holy hell.
Baldur2630Because they are brainwashed in med school NOT to help people with hormone problems, because they might just fix them without prescribing pills and medication.
Many of them mean well, but they have all been BRAINWASHED, because the medical profession, the medical schools, the pharmaceutical companies, and the thousands of Dispensing Chemists can only exist if there are enough sick people to keep the hamster wheel turning.
Just went to doc again, said to give it another week then we can test everything again. Told him i still feel like shit and he said he wants me tocheck a sleep specialist. I dont have sleep apnea so idk what that would change.
He said, and i quote, "your testosterone is perfect"
Go see a urologist.
What were your E2 levels when your testosterone was 725,684,and 548. At what time was each blood test taken?
There is a tighter window of where E2 needs to be for optimum testosterone levels off cycle. Although E2 at 41 may be in range it may be causing negative feed back. You did not mention where you LH levels were during each blood test.
E2 at last test in 500s was 28. Before that i dont know. Those tests were through primary for yearly tests. I only know e2 when on and post pct... All those were normal. LH was only tested this last test (300). Before that only tested on and post pct. so not a real good reference... Jist got my wife pregnant so i guess cant be that bad
Baldur2630I'm 74 and my TOTAL testosterone (which is the only thing these moronic doctors measure) was 484, I was told this was excellent for my age. Trouble was, like you I felt like shit, getting weaker and fatter, no sex, no erection, so I DEMANDED a full blood workup including : -
DHEA-S
DHT
Estradiol (e2)
PSA
Pregnenolone
Total Testosterone
FREE Testosterone
SHBG
TSH
LH
Cortisol
Prolactin
Vitamin D
It took another doctor (first one flatly refused) to finally after being threatened, agree to the above.
When the results came back, my Free Testosterone was close to ZERO, My SHBG was way up and my Estradiol was also down.
What did the doctor do? Fuck all. Told me that at my age he wasn't able to prescribe banned steroids for me, but I should really get testosterone injections.
Get a PROPER blood workup, do the research and DO IT YOURSELF. Doctors WANT you I'll so they can milk you of your money, and make work for the hundreds of new doctors they churn out every year from the med schools.
TSH @ 4.5 is a little on the high side, as your already taking the Dr prescribed t3, a better number on the TSH would be 1.0. And believe me low thyroid can cause brain fog.
He said he likes to get TSH to 2.5 or lower. Its an ongoing struggle with dosing. 150mcg is my latest dose... will retest in a month to see what its at. Said my thyroid antibody count was high so thats why t3 isnt as effective as it should be for me.
Go see a regular doctor and get a full blood panel not hormone, you might have something else wrong having nothing to do with your test levels. Loss of memory is not test related and being sluggish has more reasons then test or even thyroid. Even an mri might shed some light.
he did a full blood panel, everything is within range. Nothing was close to a low or high end. Idk if an MRI would be worth it. Thyroid has had ultrasound and is not enlarged or have a growth. And I don't have a high white blood cell count in addition to a weight gain problem so they have ruled cancer out.
I thought low energy was related to low T? I feel mopey, lazy, unmotivated and tired.
Baldur2630Total testosterone is MEANINGLESS. It's only Free Testosterone that matters.
Total testosterone is like putting 10 teabags into the cup without any Tea in any of them! You think it's gonna taste good?
Good news is as your e2 drops in the low teens from this letrozole use, your test levels will begin to climb. One has to deal with the doctors initial bullshit to get what they want/need. Hang in there and keep bitching.
I would say dont give up on yourself yet and jump on trt. Exhaust all your options first. You did start taking anabolics at a young age so i would hope you didnt cause permanent problems to your hpta. See if your endo can bring your levels back and if it worsens then yes eventually it would look like trt.
I dont know how long i can deal with it. Obvi trying to take some prop or something screws this all up but i feel like complete shit.
Energy is zapped and i have no drive to anything.
I dont see how his letro program will help because e2 isnt extremely high. And the OTC supps are just meant to make me mentally feel better
RustyhookerKeep working tight with that endo. Wondering your E2 levels as well. But keep whining to him. Get the levels back to where it should be.
Last reading before his letro protocol was 44
If all his protocols fail, i say trt.