posted Sat, 08/04/2012 - 01:49
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Hep B vaccination series
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Starting in September I have to begin hep b vaccination series for work. Have not started a cycle yet wondered if anybody knows if this vaccination series and aas will have problems with each other?
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No. Just got my last Hep B shot. No problems yet.
Thanks to all of you for responding. The help is much appreciated. Sucks being a newbie, but thanks to everyone here I am learning alot fast.
Supernova283Do AAS lower/raise immune system health? If they lower it you might show more symptoms from the vaccine. If they raise it then it might even be beneficial.
Otherwise it shouldn't play any part.
A bit more complicated testosterone is said to stimulate humoral immunity and suppress cellular immunity. So you're right a stimulation in the humoral arm would actually be beneficial with introduction of this vaccine. Basically don't worry you'll be fine bro!
Supernova283The virus is dead. All we would need to worry about would be symptoms from identification of the virus.
Antibodies would be less useful than T lymphocytes. Suppression of Cellular immunity would be counterproductive to introduction of vaccine as the purpose of the vaccine is identification of the virus. And the increase antibody activity would also hinder ability to identify.
It could be another vaccine instead of a inactive piece of the virus it could also be a recombinant DNA vaccine and such. Anyways back to the point minimal suppression of cellular immunity will not completely shut down the process of identification. Especially since three series of injections are given throughout 6-months when I'm sure he'd be off cycle. Even if a poor response in producing in establishing Anti-HepB antibodies in blood serum is found an adjuvant/booster could be added. Once identification has been established stimulated humoral immunity with introduction of the vaccine will prime your body to make a very large number of B cell clones that will produce antigens that should produce an sufficient amount of response when tested. Either way it does depend on the amount of "substance" used on cycle which could be very counterproductive to cellular immunity of identification since suppression on the hosts immune system could not make it respond at all! Either way you are correct any degree of suppression to cellular immunity would be a hindrance...I just think recognition and response would be sufficient.
Supernova283Maybe. I'm not too familiar with it. I've taken Bio 1, 2 and biochem and they only really gave a brief few chapters about immunity and cell response.
I'm sure it wouldn't hinder it enough to be unidentifiable though.
So yeah he should be fine.
Your point was valid...and you're definitely thinking on the right track! Now if it were someone on a much higher amount of substance with multiple compounds then you're 100% correct the host's immune system simply could not respond adequately or at all due to suppression of identification through cellular immunity. Now looking at this dose a slight suppression will actually lessen the effect of symptoms from the identification response...and stimulation through humoral immune response will actually give a great response producing a high abundance of antibodies which is what they test for in blood levels for a sufficient response. He may not even need his third 6-month shot. On another note not sure if you know this but androgens(steroids) work as anti-inflammatories like people running Deca who say it improves their dry joints is not because of "extra" lubrication from holding "water"...it's actually from the suppression of the cell mediated immunity reducing inflammation. Deca just works better than other such as test because it has minimal aromatization and its progestogenic activity also decreases inflammation by suppressing cellular immunity. Anyways enough Immuno! I take it you must be a Chemistry Major?
Supernova283Chemical Engineering.
That's awesome man! Not many have the intelligence for a field like that...You take P. Chem yet?
Supernova283Almost done with P chem 1. P chem 2 is going to be fun though.
Good stuff man haha! It all pays off in the end....I guess?
This will be my first cycle have not started yet. Simple cycle 500 mg test e, arimidex .5mg eod nolvadex pct @ 40/40/20/20 + Liv.52 and NAC wich I'm guessing would have no bearing. I'm in no big hurry to start if necessary I can just wain til after hep c vaccinations. From what I am reading though it sounds like I should have no probs. Is that correct?
Yeah man you'll be fine! Since you're only running a long ester Test E at 500mg/week you may want to start that A-dex after the beginning of week 2 at 0.50mg E3D's...it's pretty strong stuff...you can always change it to .50mg EOD later on if you experience excessive bloat(water retention). Find your sweet spot!
Ne more thing since you are paying attn. I opted not to use clomid and just stick with nolva in pct due to all the sides I read about.. good idea or no?
How long are you running the Test-E?
10 weeks
Oh yeah man you'll be fine just running Nolva @ 40/40/20/20....if you're on multiple high amount of compounds or for an extended cycle then I'd recommend Clomid with PCT. The Nolva will control estrogen which spikes after cycle so that is most important on any cycle...with your length/substance amount you will not need clomid to help start natty test production...sometimes another option people do is run a Natural Test booster to get test production/levels up again but this is optional.
Supernova283Nah he should defo run Clomid with his Nolva. The Pathway for Nolva isn't going to promote LH and FSH nearly as much as Clomid will.
No point in risking it. Run Nolva and Clomid 40/40/20/20 and 100/50/50/50 respectively.
Really?? Risking what lol? Do you have experience or are you just going by what you have "read" and reiterate. He said that he'd rather not run clomid and asked if it was necessary. For this cycle length and amount NO! The HTPA feedback mechanism will not be shut down from a cycle like this. If it were higher amounts of test or harsher compounds such as deca/tren that definitely suppresses and shuts-down the HTPA pathway then yes clomid would definitely be important to "jumpstart" the HTPA. How clomid works is important in knowing if should be needed based on how long you have been using a certain steroid and at what dose. Clomid works by the estrogenic inhibition by blocking the estrogen receptors in the hypothalamus and pituitary which allow LH levels to return to normal thus stimulating FSH which starts production of balls to produce more test...LH stimulates them to release test into the bloodstream. Back to what we want to accomplish...he isn't running anything near the point of definitely needing clomid to run with it because his HPTA will not be highly suppressed after this dosage...He'll be on A-dex throughout the cycle keeping estrogen in check..and once he comes off, the dosage scheme for Nolva will control the estrogen levels, well enough to reduce or have no inhibition of the hypo/pituitary due to high estrogen levels...that will already be in check with these A.I.'s. If anything although clomid is a weak synthetic estrogen...it still binds to estrogen in the blood and with these doses using both clomid and nolva on a small test cycle like this could lower estrogen levels to a point of being detrimental which would negatively affect natural test production and blood serum test levels. If anything if the clomid was ran for "safety" since there is "no point in risking it" it should be ran 50/50/25/25 based on these test-e dosages...but as I regress clomid isn't needed...nolva will suffice!
Supernova283People have gotten shutdown from much less than a test cycle for 12 weeks. Yeah he should totally run Clomid.
Clomid is not weak synthetic estrogen. Clomid binds to the estrogen receptors in the pituitary better than Nolvadex. It will stimulate LH production far better than Nolva will as I've already stated.
There are people who have run a single cycle without PCT and never recovered who are you to say that Nolva (a compound which most people agree is pretty shitty for PCT alone) is enough. Who are you to play with this guys HPTA? What if Nolva doesn't start his HPTA back up? Then he'll continue to further atrophy and that'll be on your head.
Clomid's sides are pretty bad for most, but it's for 4 weeks and if you can't handle 4 weeks of shitty sides then you probably shouldn't be doing steroids.
Personally you have A LOT of maturing to do! And you obviously can't read and understand what I'm saying and just jump the gun on your own diluted thoughts. Keep studying bud! You should take a medicinal chem class...And stick to chemistry because biology is definitely not your forte! Especially human biological systems and medicine.
Supernova283You say I have a lot of maturing to do yet you attack me with personal statements where I have not done the same?
That makes a whole lot of sense.
You need to stop giving people bad advice which could have permanent consequences. I read your post. I know how Nolva and Clomid work. Nolva doesn't follow the same pathway as Clomid. Clomid is much better at "kick starting" the HPTA.
If you honestly believe that after not producing testosterone for 12 weeks your body testes aren't going to be atrophied and your HPTA isn't going to be at least partially shutdown then maybe you should do a little more research.
If being correct is an "attack" towards you then you are right. If I said you were young, arrogant, and naive this is not an attack towards you just the truth. Just because you're in college and learning new material that might pertain to AAS doesn't mean you know whats right or even have a full understanding of everything yet. Let me ask you...Have you had any personal experience whatsoever with any of these compounds you so adamantly defend as having "knowledge" about? I could have easily dissected your previous post but honestly I'm not going to waste my time on any more posts explaining anything to you. Your statements are vague and honestly just regurgitated material you read about. My advise is valid your inexperience is not.
Supernova283Saying I should stick to chemistry and that biology is not my forte is an insult. Insults are attacks.
Someone who recommends Nolva to restart an HPTA isn't someone I even need to argue with. Your own experiences will not be the experiences of others. Yes I have never had any experience with these compounds myself, but I've read quite a bit about them and have read about others experiences on them.
I do know about the pathways Nolva and Clomid take and suggesting Nolva only just because it's possible that his HPTA isn't going to be shut down enough for it to matter is destructive advice.
Don't take my words out of context...I never once said Nolva will restart his HPTA. I said the Nolva controlling and reducing his estrogen levels throughout his body will be enough to suppress any major estrogenic inhibition of the hypo/pituitary. How about this let me ask you this if Nolva is soo shitty for PCT...then what if he only wanted to run clomid what would your advice be? You really are thinking too serious...you might have read about the pathway of Nolva and Clomid but you certainly don't know about it especially pertaining to other activities/actions the drugs utilize. And on a last note I will apologize if my words have offended you I didn't mean to insult you. You are still young and learning so I will take that under consideration.
Supernova283I'd suggest he go on Aromasin if he only wanted to run Clomid. That way his estro wouldn't rebound.
I'm pretty sure I know how Nolva and Clomid work. And I'm 100% sure you don't how much I know about it so you don't know that "I don't know about it especially pertaining to other activities/actions the drugs utilize."
Okay so you say you didn't say Nolva will restart his HPTA. Then you're suggesting that you believe that his cycle will not suppress his HPTA at all. That it's safe for him to naturally restart his HPTA without any outside help.
I'm not overthinking things. I'm being practical. 3 months of test isn't going to make his balls want to produce more test. You have no idea how shutdown he will be. Maybe you're right maybe he'll be fine, but consider the following. What if it does shut him down. Then you just fucked his HPTA.
You are making assumptions...especially toward any complex statement I make...your rebuttal is vague general statement of frizzles support to back your initial assumption. I am not suggesting that his cycle will not suppress his HPTA. His HPTA will not get "fucked" up even if he is highly suppressed. As long as nolva is implemented controlling estrogen levels will support the stimulation of HPTA as there is less estrogen inhibition. A simple test booster could be used to bring test levels back faster..but either way his level WILL stabilize with estrogen control. Clomid is a weak synthetic estrogen in body as it's affinity to bind to "free" estrogen isn't strong...it does have a strong affinity toward receptors on the hypo/pituitary where it's mechanism is beneficial with obvious reason. If only clomid was used it would "protect" HTPA but estrogen levels being so high would cause much more problems including a negative effect on HPTA upon the cessation of clomid which means shut-down after therapy. I am right he will be fine...but as I stated before if he did run Clomid it could easily be half or less of the dose with just as much benefit and less side due to clomid concentration. With cycle length, this being his first, and the test dosage amount clomid is not needed.
Supernova283Clomid is not synthetic estrogen. PERIOD. Clomid binds to estrogen receptors. This does not make it estrogen. Next you'll be saying that Trenbolone is strong testosterone.
And if he was on Aromasin his estrogen levels wouldn't be high. I'm not making assumptions I'm thinking about scenarios in which something bad happens.
You're assuming the best will happen while I assume the worst. In the end if the best happens our end result is the same. If not then at least my way his test production is probably going to come back. Your way he's screwed.
Yeah you could halve the Clomid dose, but what if it's underdosed? Then once again you aren't getting your foot in the ground.
And if you seriously believe that just boosting free test levels with some test booster which is probably just something that partially binds to SHbG to increase free test levels then you should do a little more research yourself.
Also calling your statements complex is arrogant. My statements aren't vague. People around here don't respond to chemistry lessons. Believe me I tried. You have to speak to them differently. Look at how Tread talks. People understand him. He's the guru.
Stop saying Clomid is estrogen. It's not. It binds to the receptor. It is in no way shape or form an estrogen.
Clomiphene Citrate. Clomid does not belong to the anabolic/androgenic steroid group of products. It is a synthetic estrogen belonging to the group of sex hormones.
http://www.drugwiki.net/drugs/Clomid
Paradoxically, although Clomid is a synthetic estrogen it also works as an anti-estrogen. The reason is that Clomid has only a very low estrogenic effect and thus the stronger estrogens which, for example, form during the aromatization of steroids, are blocked at the receptors.
This drug is not a steroid; it is a synthetic estrogen used as a fertility drug. In men it can work as both an anti-estrogen, and a gonadotropic stimulant.
"And if you seriously believe that just boosting free test levels with some test booster which is probably just something that partially binds to SHbG to increase free test levels then you should do a little more research yourself." HUGE ASSUMPTION! You need to do your research....there are in fact several test boosters that work through various actions bud! Just a few references I pulled up about clomiphene being a synthetic estrogen...You obviously haven't a clue on drug design or pharmacokinetics/pharmacodynamics...You should take those classes if you'd like to discuss further! Do more research!
Supernova283http://www.medicalook.com/molecular/clomid.gif - Clomid
http://www.pharmacy-and-drugs.com/molecular/estradiol.gif - Estradiol
Clomid is not synthetic estrogen. It's not even a steroid as you've said. Estrogen is a steroid. Steroids are cholesterol derivatives. Clomid contains no steroid features.
Clomid IS NOT ESTROGEN! It's not. You can't even begin to call it estrogen in the slightest sense.
You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about and you get your shit from wikipedia. I'm done arguing with you. There's no point.
You don't get to tell me to do more research when you can't even see that Clomid isn't estrogen. Seriously you're fucking retarded if you believe it.
Wow! You discredit what is actually published and established through research? First I just referenced the first piece because it was a "well known site" with an easy link. The other sources are from published research papers from resources I did not want to link. If you want to see "fucking retarded" look in the mirror buddy! Why does clomid have such a strong affinity to an Estrogen Receptor in the hypo/pituitary glands as an ESTROGEN inhibitor? Don't answer that! I'm done wasting another millisecond replying to you.
Thanks for the re-iteration. I took your answer over his as it was, not only because I have been researching myself, but it is clear that your information was far more scientific and based on first hand experience than his. I do appreciate you wanting to help but on the other hand guy with the wrong answer be careful what you say other newbies like me may not have spent the time researching that I have and you may give an answer "un-intentionally" that may get somebody hurt.
Anonwhat you don't understand is that it isn't a WRONG answer. Nolvadex will NOT restart your system. the "arguement" here is that the cycle you propose to do will or will not shut your system down entirely .. the real issue is whether or not you want to find out personally if you should or should not use clomid. Given that partial shut down of the system is rather unpleasant I always recommend that guys utilize clomid to restart the system. As I already said, Nolvadex will not help in that manner at all.. pleasant cycyling and let us know how it works out for you.
Anonyou digress and thanks for the chemistry lesson but wasn't his question regarding vaccines and if it would be affected by his cycle?
Give them a vote if you find it helpful.PermalinkGood to know we have an english teacher/moderator on here. lol
It was but I asked another.
Regress...I was "going back" to the main point of only using nolva. He asked further questions about PCT in this same post. I answered his question about vaccines during his cycle.
Anonsaying you regress poor usage of the language.. you did digress ... ;-)
Lol...yeah I'll admit it you caught me...I meant to use digress and it does make much better usage in the context of that writing! Thanks for the correction! Also I lean more on Biology than Chemistry for my lessons haha!
Anonit happens to the best of us.. good lessons on biology thanks for the details. I get caught up in the neuro pathology so biology and functioning is always an interesting read for me. didn't really mean to pick on the grammer though it just happens... I also end up correcting a lot spelling errors.
Give them a vote if you find it helpful.PermalinkI don't blame you...grammatical errors are one of my pet peeves...but then again being on a forum you expect the worse lol. And you are welcome...knowledge is power...I've always enjoyed neuroscience it taught me probably more than I need to know...but Neruopathology is whole other beast...very intriguing stuff..and lots of emerging information coming out as a growing field! It's a good thing to get caught up in!
Supernova283Yeah then you gave him the advice to use Nolva only as PCT. Nolva is good for Estro rebound. Not so much at restarting the HPTA.
cool. thanx man.
Supernova283Hey you should also run Clomid. Not running it will not promote pituitary to increase LH production. It'd be a bad choice to only run Nolva.
Will do... thanks for the input.
Supernova283Nah probably not.
Anonno it is a vaccination .. should not affect anything