+ 8 The 19nor dilemma, bring your brain
Is it just me or is anyone else wondering why so many users GUESS at what the cause of their Gyno is stemmed from when either running a 19nor cycle or coming off a 19nor cycle. Seriously?
Why? When I see these posts often they have already answered their own questions within the post they just made.
Then here's the kicker, they want to run another 19nor cycle again in their next cycle coming up. To be completely honest that's not even my issue here. It's that they aren't thinking things through to find their answers.
Well based off of just what they said. Word for word. I think it's a mistake to run the tren right now. They just stated two things.
1) It's possible they have elevated E2 which could have caused ur Gyno symptoms.
2) it's possible they have elevated prolactin which could have caused their Gyno symptoms.
Either way you look at it they shouldn't play with fire.
For instance if they have elevated E2 then they obviously were aromatizing at a level their AI couldn't keep up with. Which makes the addition of a compound known for spiking prolactin a dangerous move. Prolactin and high Estrogen are a troublesome pair. The high e2 makes the likelihood for lactating much higher.
If they look at things from an elevated prolactin issue that's causing their Gyno symptoms it would force me to reconsider subjecting my body through that a second time and a consecutive cycle at that. I would give my body a break.
Here's where some guys differ from each other. Some guys are prepared and use the proper ancillaries for 19nors
For the guys who don't mention ancillary use this is a typical response of mine:
"Now look at this from an outsiders point of view here brother. Nowhere did u mention Caber nor did u mention your AI. Which makes us assume you possibly weren't running them. Alternatively one could also assume you were running these compounds as the info is everywhere to lead a novice user to use these ancillaries. Say you were running these ancillaries and you still have these Gyno symptoms. As an outsider I see you mentioning a consecutive 19nor cycle and I cringe.
Honestly based on what u wrote and even what you still have yet to mention like ancillary use and dosage I would strongly urge you to give you body a rest and immediately get some bloods done so YOU the most important person in this conversation aren't forced to guess. I also suggest you order some Aromasin and Caber/Prami/Bromo so that when u get your lab results you can immediately treat these Gyno symptoms in an educated fashion. Guessing at what the cause is isn't good enough for your body. You only have one."
Really this stuff can be hard to find the answers to. Do lots n lots of reading. Log your experiences into a journal. Listen to your experiences and trust your instincts. As time goes on the answers to these issues begin to jump out at you. Having run lots of 19nor cycles has helped me figure things out and no one here expects novices to know all the answers. But truth be told all of the answers to your questions are right in Front of you. From the obvious like "Get labs done and don't guess" to the comprehensive answers regarding timing and symptoms and compounds. Certain keywords trigger certain actions or pathways to processes of elimination.
But do all of yourselves a favor and be prepared. Be informed. Be engaged in your own therapies and protocols. Don't just let some guy tell u it's this way or that way. Obviously listen to the more informed members but bring ur mind to the conversation. Don't be the dumb muscle head. Most successful Bodybuilders and AAS users are mostly Intelligent articulate informed people. We are all here to learn, to help each other, to share, to grow safely and live lengthy healthy lives.
When dealing with 19nors you can't afford to act like a knucklehead. Do your homework and read. Study like your life depends on it and hopefully the quality of your life will never diminish.
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PcushionI completely understand that tren is a very powerful drug and that it can and does impose side effects, but I also know that they can be very easily contained if you know what you are doing. Guys trying to do too much too fast without even the knowing where to solve an issue when it dose arise. These are also the people who can’t spot the warning signs of an issue before it a big problem. Better safe than sorry is the motto to live by when using hormones.
I have always run Pharma caber and an AI with teen and suffered no gyno sides. Better safe than sorry!
On week 5 of my current cycle. Running Sust TrenA. Just wanted to mention a few things I swear by and can vouch have been working smooth for me. For lesser negative tren sides for me are my cut off window for carbs. No carbs after 4-5pm. I up that window to 3-4pm the closer I get to my body como target goals. The longer the window without carbs the faster the water and/or fat comes off for me. I also by chance noticed I had less sweats at night. I’ve been taking GABA and 5htp for anxiety and sleep when on Tren. That seems to keep my moods steady and sleep more regular. Also taking Milk thistle Tudca and Nac to help the liver out.
Not one single negative side at all in 4 full weeks now into wk5.
PcushionHey man it’s funny you mentioned the link between carbs and night sweats. My body is exceptionally tolerant to all gear. The only side effects tren ever imposed on me was night sweats. After quite a few cycles of tren and changing one variable at a time I discovered that watching my carb and sodium intake made a huge change with my night sweats. It’s good to see someone else that has noticed this too. For the longest time I thought that my body was just weird as fuck.
Bump
Bump- this was an old post of mine under an old handle SexyMexy
Sad seeing all the deleted members over the years
RustyhookerHella history
This needs a bump.
AnonIs that your real picture? Are you single?
Just kidding!
Its been preached before but I think you did an excellent job. I know people see this same subject a lot and that's a good thing, that way they don't just forget about it, its constantly in their face. Let me remind you that there are 'older' knuckleheads too, I was one of them. hopefully these words of wisdom will eventually sink into those hard heads like they did mine.
+1 my friend, I hope you have a great day!
EDIT: Tren has became so hyped up its got the reputation as the 'Pitbull' of steroids. I think its the hype that leads people to the I dont give a F*ck attitude. Like its the magic AAS. I feel like throwing a party now that I am through with it!
Why the F*ck does it kill your cardio?
SM.. you know me well enough to realise that i have read and digested the whole thread so far and really enjoyed the section when Grrrl got involved and the progesterone/progestin topic got underway.. that was the best info i have seen for a while and a subject that 99% of our yunguns have no clue about.
I was initally gonna come in here to enforce those facts (which are all true) and get really deep on some specifics regarding these facts but eventually changed my mind because i feel i will be pissing into the wind again preaching 19nor dangers to hard heads who really dont give a fuck!.
So many threads i read were young guys are saying "tren aint so bad " and "its the only gear i will use from now on " etc etc etc,.... most of these guys are only a hanful of cycles into thier AAS carreers and think running tren is a bed of roses due to not feeling the initial "bad sides" which are printed all over our pages here in eroid world.
What i am eventually getting at here is most of them who do not/will not use proper ancills on/off cycle will all probably end up with a prostate the size of a fkn melon in a few years and thier training and AAS use cut way short through illness and the like... ignorance to the facts now!.. will ultimately lead to positive failure further down the road... i am not saying this will happen to all.. but i forsee a massive amount of tren casualties in the near future....... purely due to having balls bigger than thier fkn brains.
Anon+1 for you too Vike. You're like the Eroids Coach. I know you get tired of preaching it but its just as good everytime you do it and hopefully you have reached out to someone new. I always like reading your pep talk believe it or not. This was one of your good ones and actually brought a smile to my face.
Have a great day my brother!
AnonSad but so true. Very well put Vike. As is almost always the case I couldn't agree more with you. Compared to your experience I am in my infancy when it comes to years in the game and it's so foolish for newer guys to not read your words and not listen up. Wish more young guys and low experience guys look in the mirror and ask themselves what the fuck they're doing. Thanks for chiming in brother
Give them a vote if you find it helpful.
PermalinkAnonMexy, I know a big intent for you with this topic was to get younger users thinking about Tren , but just today I spoke to two friends both in their forties, both having some nasty tren sides.
I think this discussion is one for all ages of aas users , and should hopefully make someone think real hard about the risk/benefit ration and how they will handle the associated side effects.
AnonYou know if a person is an IFBB and this one drug would be the difference in winning first place, I could see some equality in the benefit to risk ratio. For an average joe like me, I have to retain a certain amount of endurance, my job depends on it. There are other compounds that improve my quality of life without the sides. Someday when I grow up, I still want to try this one guys bad ass Tren A just to see if it is any more glorious than the enanthate.
I always enjoy your posts my brother! +1
AnonUr absolutely right. Perhaps the better audience should be beginners in general. Beginners to 19nors especially Trenbolone
+1 saved
Cliffs?
AnonCliff notes u mean?
Yes please
Cliff' Note in this case aka Grrrl's Note: Have your caber and letro on hand and prepared to use.. get labs before running your 19nor cycle... don't be a knucklehead and post a thread and not have your caber and letro.
Thank you hard body girl ;)
AnonLol
AnonGuys maybe we should post some more links for the YoungGunz to read. This thread has so much potential.
AnonLove the dialogue in here. Keep it coming J223
I will do my best this weekend to dig up all the information I have on the subject.
The problem is many people confuse progesterone with progestin. Deca and tren are progestins. So technically their chemical make up puts them in the same family as progesterone.
BUT they are NOT progesterone, nor do they exert the same effects.
Like I said I will come back later with more info when I get the time.
AnonWell isnt the difference that a progestin is a man made hormone vs progesterone a naturally occuring hormone ? So actually they kind of are the same thing .
http://www.drugs.com/drug-class/progestins.html
And here is a sentence I lifted from a Prolactin article.
" Progesterone has been observed to upregulate prolactin synthesis in the endometrium"
No, progestins can be both synthetic and natural.
progesterone is DIFFERENT (it is a progestin also though). There are other progestins too you know, each has a different function and do not always act the same, reguardless of their chemical structure.
AnonKeep it coming brother. We need this dialogue more than ever with all the 20yr olds wanting tren on their first cycle. I'm not against youth but I am against ignorance. Please feed the conversation good friend
AnonHey I was thinking this last paragraph might be worth investigating.
http://www.yourlifesource.com/progesterone-for-men.htm
I pulled this sentence from your article which I have found in many articles.
Basically what It means is that progesterone is important because it can help reduce or increase the conversion of testosterone into DHT. This makes sence because when winstrol binds to the progesterone receptor, the receptor is not activated and this is why people who take winstrol almost always have hairloss or other DHT problems.
Progesterone is an important hormone, many people think it is bad but it is actually the opposite.
Remember DHT is one of the most important of our male hormones, DHT is an extremely powerful regulator of estrogen. Hence if deca is binding to progest. receptor, progesterone is not doing it's job regulating DHT this is why estrogen issues can happen from deca because lower DHT levels are seen. Sex drive will also be down when on deca since DHT is one of the main hormones for male libido.
I m not sure about what I am going to say as it applies to men, however, it may be relevant in that excess progesterone (and I have found progestin to do the same running deca) WILL convert to estrogen. So before you all run out and start supplementing with progesterone to block DHT you need to be aware that imbalances can produce unintended consequences.
AnonGRRRRL, Im glad you chimed on on this as what you are saying somewhat confirms what I thought but was unsure of.
It seems to me that the root cause of all these issues people have with Deca / Tren and progestin related. Sure the end result may be a prolactin number or Estro number thats out of line, but from everything Ive read and now what you are saying that all stems back to progestin/ progesterone.
Sad thing is, is that I probably would have never known if not for some personal things that happened several year prior to my using deca. I had to do a lot of research and draw my own conclusions about what was happening because no one talks about this stuff in relation to women... now the real question for females is what to do about it. The last cycle I used NPP I had such a profound response to prolactin beyond the conversion to excess estrogen that I considered the use of caber.
AnonSo with a woman, does prolactin decrease libido ? What side effects came from the high prolactin in you ?
Now what your saying about info for men more available than women is very true, however with this one issue (progesterone) a tremendous amount of the info that comes up is largely discussing women .
Yes, you are right regarding the subject of progesterone and it was might helpful when I as doing research on progestins..
High prolactin in women crushes libido in women ;-( ... it was bad and not only that but the sides continued long after I discontinued the use of deca.
AnonI enjoyed your posts grrl, very informative. +1
do you think the estrogen issue is due to direct conversion of progesterone to estrogen? Or do you think the lower DHT levels is causing the estrogen issues? Since DHT is an extremely powerful estro blocker.
Also do you think that because deca (progestin) binds to the progesterone receptor, this leaves the progesterone unbound resulting in conversion to estrogen?
Thanks for your response, I love learning about this stuff I spend (too many) hours researching about it. Though I will have to look more into progesterone to see if it does directly convert to estro before I know for sure. I'll be researching more on this over the next few weeks
It does (progesterone) convert to estrogen if it is in excess.. Endos who do hormone replacement therapy over prescribe progesterone knowing that at excessive doses it will convert to estrogen. So they keep the estrogen dosages low over prescribe the progesterone and do regular labs to ensure that shb isn't binding with the estro to render it ineffective.
I do think that the estrogen is a direct result of the conversion of progesterone to estrogen in the case of utilizing deca... it is the only explanation as to why I HAD to stop taking my estradiol ... my estrogen levels were way high while running deca to the point where it was causing a lot of issues with cramping and setting off my cycle (the girly one) ..
I m not certain about the DHT levels it is a double edge sword if you think about it... too much and your hair falls out and for women you have hair growth while your hair falls out ;-) and if there is too little then the estrogen is too high ...;-(
AnonWell isnt it like most hormones, in that too high or too low is bad ?
Now if a Progestin binds to the progesterone receptor, then what happens to free progesterone in the body ?
It seems to me that progestin issues are the root of the cause of symptoms like gyno, impotence , when we are talking deca or tren.
This is a very good question. Earlier today I thought the same thing. I have nothing to add because I am not sure. I will not discuss something that I do not know. I am sure it still has functions when unbound, but I do not know. We know testosterone when unbound can still exert effects on the body, so I would guess unbound progesterone ALSO has it's own set of effects.
AnonI like this right here. Nothing worse in my eyes when guys act like they no something they really don't. Good to see that u are being responsible brother. Respect.
YES!!!!!!
the endocrine system is a very touchy complex system. one change in a certain hormone, can throw off the whole system. The body does a pretty good job at regulating and converting when necessary to keep a good balance.
Of course when we take steroids we throw off this balance. You can't always pinpoint one thing because usually other hormones will convert as a result. Fortunately the effects of testosterone are understood and we know that controlling estrogen helps keep the body to a closer balance.
Even on deca we know that controlling estrogen usually is good enough to prevent prolactin issues. We also take caber which effects prolactin by a completely different mechanism. This is by increasing dopamine levels.
Getting into neurotransmitters and the relationship between them and hormones, things REALLY get complicated.
+2
I've learned a lot. It would be worth creating a post for this issue, since ive misunderstood this concept once.
Hmm maybe if I get enough time in a week or so I can put something together. I'd like to have a wide variety of sources and studies though before making a post - which will take quite some time.
AnonIm still a little unsure about this prolactin/ gyno thing. I have seen info linking the two, but it really seems to me that we are more dealing with during a NOR19 run is a Progesterone issue , and if Progesterone is measured and controled then there will be no prolactin issue right ?
I guess its what came first the chicken or the egg, but it sure seems from what I see the Progesterone is what comes first. What is the proper ration between testosterone, progestin, estrogen ?
PROGESTERONE AND PROLACTIN ARE NOT THE SAME THING 19NOR HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH PROGESTERONE LEVELS
AnonI am aware that prolactin and progesterone are different things, I didnt realize I was suggesting they were the same. I did however think that NOR 19s are a progestin, and therefore affected progesterone levels. I also was under the impression that an out of whack progesterone level would stimulate the production of prolactin.
Here is one of many sources or articles that say this
http://www.fitnessuncovered.co.uk/profile-nandrolone-decanoate.php
Progesterone is a precursor to testosterone, when progesterone is high, estrogen is low, when progesterone is low estrogen is high.
Testosterone converts to estrogen.
Estrogen can convert to prolactin. Progesterone and prolactin are 2 completely different hormones
AnonSo I just checked some reading I had done on the matter, it it seems to me that nor 19 is a progestin and binds well to the progesterone receptor. It seems from what I read that there is a direct link to the use of progestenic steroids and increased prolactin.