+ 11 HPTAxis
Ok I have a couple topics I keep getting asked about pretty frequently so I want to address both here in order to have a place to send people without repeating it over and over i n PM.
PART ONE..THE AXIS
The first is a question I have addressed in open forum and many times in PM and have seen others address it including perses recently. I know its not being taught here but apparently the "nolva on cycle" is being taught in several other places outside here and is sort of filtering its way back here. As you begin a cycle with any compound derived from test there is a negative feedback loop that occurs from the axis to the pituitary gland. That feedback is to tell the pituitary the body is getting plenty of testosterone And in that signal process the pituitary slows the production of LH and the shutdown on the test side of the axis occurs. The growth hormone (gh) is not effected by this and is also not effected by the use of hgh but I'll get back to that. Now let's talk about what nolva does and why it is the most important compound in the pct run and why you don't. Want it on cycle. Nolva has a multi purpose in the pct run. First it does do some blocking for the anticipated "crash" in test so that as estro rises it can't jump on all the receptors but clomid can cover that, the main use for nolva in the pct run is that it will prompt the pituitary to restart LH production which remember, the slow down in LH was what shut you down to begin with so it makes perfect sense that you would want to reboot it as quick as possible.
So this is where I think the nolva on cycle thought comes from. I think many have thought if you keep prompting LH you can prevent the shutdown or maybe even keep from shutting down too far. So first things first, why block receptors that you afre wanting test to grab up? Well, you don't so that by itself kills the nolva argument but to go further back to LH which actually sounds reasonable...when using nolva on cycle you have sort of a positive feedback loop occuring at the pituitary for LH but on the other hand you already have a negative feedback loop occuring o slow LH coming from the axis via the use of test. So now you have chaos in a sense at the pituitary with the mixed signals. Whatever it is we do in our body and no matter how high we take the compounds it wants homeostasis and is in the constant struggle to achieve that goal which is great because its nice to wake up every morning. So outside of someone coming in and bringing good argument to the contrary I think we need to agree any serm type compound but especially nolva is off limits in a cycle given we don't ever want mixed signals in our hormone loop as a whole. Even when we go big we should do so in a way that everything will get along and the natural flow will occur allowing proper positive and negative feedback loop to occur without interuption.
PART TWO..THE AXIS
Ok so in part tow given I explain this several times a day in PM and frankly to new and some more seasoned users, I will address what the axis does and why it does it. This will also give me a nice reference place to send people and save me a lot of PM work at least as to this portion of that.
The axis is essentially our bodies loop for the creation of testosterone and growth hormone. So why is it called "the axis". Well, axis basically means balance. So the reason it is called the balance (axis) is that its only job is to balance test and growth hormone. So now we get into the big arguments that have been had since the days when BB first began using testosterone. Its always been thought, some will say known, that more is better. That all depends on what better means to you I guess, if better means you want more water and sides so you feel all amped up "on cycle" then I suppose more is better. Let's get back to what the axis does. It balances right? So let's say you pop 1.5 grams of test this week split. What will be the first responce of the axis? It will immediately go into positive feedback loop to the HP to produce more GH, why, remember its job is to balance the two hormones. So if I say for example we need a 50% more growth homone produced in order to accommodate 1.5 grams of test do you think the positive feedback loop is enough combined with your test hit to allow that to occur? Not likely, you will see your igf-1 increase but not in a percentage that would allow the balance on that sort of volume. So yes, there is some benefit witbhout full balance but then you ask, can you achieve "balance" in the overall total hormone picture? No, you can't. So now what happens? Every action creates a reaction so when you put this one shot of test in your body before it is all said and done every hormone in the body will have been impacted by it in one way or another. The action of the test created reaction in the axis and that then becomes an action that will create another action and on and on, so in the meantime the body is running crazy trying to find balance and when the axis could not meet the demand in balance that causes issues.
What are the issues with much more test than the body can balance? Look at 2 users and btw I have seen this many times as have other guys who have been around such as perses, Goth, Vike etc etc. I personally have been running 800 mg's for example and had a buddy or 2 hitting the 1.5 grams and maybe all been running the same stack compounds in the same doses. So during the cycle it kind of appears they are achieving more than you, at least to the untrained eye. They blow up quick, vascular but what is the reason, is it they are achieving more than you with the higher test. IMO the answer is no. They are carrying more water, hitting much higher bp and twice the veins, swole outta control for sho but then watch the cycle end. You both get back to your new size and they didn't gain anymore than you and in some cases they took on so much trash they drug off some of the good that you were able to keep not having all the garbage come on and all the high end sides on cycle.
So now a person that see's this over and over again and becomes more seasoned begins to see the higher end compound numbers may have only had higher end sides and not been any more beneficial which goes back to balance. For my thoughts when you can't balance the two hormones properly, gh and test, you create a difficult environment in the body and anytime you have trouble finding homeostasis or you are sending mixed signals there will be sides. Even your otc drugs or prescription meds often are creating mixed signals trying to get the body to do things it does not want to do and sides come on, a necessary evil maybe in some of those cases but not here in my opinion...balance is crucial for proep achievement.
So now we get to my point and the question I get asked so much about in PM."Tread you seem to have a lot out there about hgh, is hgh right for me?" I answer this way usually after I explain what I just explained about test. What does hgh do? It is the other half of the hormone axis right? So one can easily conclude after reading the above, would it not be better to satisfy both sides of the "axis"? I mean if you put one rock on one side of an axis and a much smaller rock on the other side you don't need a degree in axisology to know that right there ain't gonna work jethro...right?
So here's the answer, yes, much better contol of the cycle if one is to satisfy both sides of the axis...MUCH BETTER!. Does that mean I'm telling all the 25 yr olds to order up? No...it means if you are 25 and running the proper achievable doses of test at around 500 you will do just fine given your natty gh is nice and healthy. It also means if you have been around a long time you will have a much healthier situation running 800mg's of test with hgh to satisfy balance as opposed to running 1.5 or 2 grams of test and guess what, you will achieve more and much lower sides if ran proper and the kitchen and water work is right. Btw, gh does not shut down when using hgh and is not even slowed unless running it wrong or dosing too late at night which does then send a negative feedback loop to the HP, "there is plenty". The reason that will occur if using the hgh too late is you pulse your natty at night as you sleep. I will only say this on the young guys, stop running the mega doses just to brag about mega doses. Its like the guy who smoked to look cool around his buds and then was not so cool with emphasima. Same here , real cool today, not so cool running trt at 28 and having off and on ed problems already and maybe even early onset hyperplasia. If and only If you are thyat younger guy that refuses to run moderate achievable doses of test then yes, hgh with smaller doses is healthier by far than the mega dose of test. Ah, but I have your number because I was you for a stint. What just came to your mind is "whooaaa, what if I run my mega dose of test and my mega dose of hgh?" Enjoy your health problems a little later, again, an enlarged heart will not put you in "the cool guy" circle in a few yrs. Balance...its the whole deal guys, figure that out and you move forward with much fewer steps back and become that turtle that we all know will beat the hare because the hare is busy getting his co-pay together every month for doc to put him through more test and ramming pellets in his prostate to slow down the damage. Alright, I know some will hammer the less is better argument and the sides implications etc, so have it, I won't argue much given I have been on both sides of this debate and found the one I like. Chime in though, always open to debate and happy to learn along the way.
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sgtstedankoboom!
My nooka : )
Great post Tread. Very informative. I wonder, is it worth mentioning how our body's need to achieve homeostasis after a cycle or any other time, eventually shuts down hormone production for a short time and creates massive amounts of cortisol? As I understand it this is very bad as it ultimate forces us into a catabolic state. Doesn't improper PCT lend to drastic loss of gains because of a slow HPTA rebuilding process? If my understanding of these issues is correct, then how does if at all along with Nolva and Clomid; HCG work to bring the HPTA back to a homeostatic state? I usually see the boys come back within about 6 days of my first shot of HCG so I have to assume it is doing it's job.
Supernova283Homeostasis is equilibrium. Your body is always trying to be balanced. Nolva and Clomid are SERMs (selective estrogen receptor modulators (I'm pretty sure)) and what they do is bind to estrogen receptors (estradiol I believe) and make the body believe that there is a large amount of estrogen without there actually being a large amount of estrogen in your body. Since your body strives for equilibrium a large amount of estrogen needs to be counteracted with testosterone so it signals your body to produce more testosterone.
You'll have to ask tread about HCG I'm not at all familiar with the compound.
tread-mI'll give you my take on it and its pretty straight forward open to and subject to debate. Iif testicular atrophy were the only reason for shutdown as mentioned below me one could run hcg properly through cycle preventing atrophy and would not even need pct right? The idea was planted and many fell for it, it is simply one compnent and even using hcg properly and preventing atrophy the LH is going down. How hard you shutdown may be debated as to hcg use but shutdown none the less. Yes, there are degrees of shutdown . Pct is very important you are correct and yes corisol levels are very important and actually may play a bigger role than many know in overall health period. To control estrogen properly in a cycle is where I look to control cortisol to some degree and then just general health. Frequent meals if heavy training with proper nutricion , plenty of vitamin c and e, doln't blow the cardio way overboard...many things can help control cortisol but good cycle work, good nutrition, good sleep and try to keep the stress levels down are good idea's. I think hcg to prevent atrophy is likely a good idea though as long as its not thought of as the end of shutdown , you are still shutdown when using test hcg or no hcg.
Supernova283Also you talk about your HPTA being shut down too far. That's just hilarious.
Aren't you supposed to be a guru. You should know that you can't get any more shut off then shut off. Once your body stops producing LH because LH is the hormone that signals your body to produce testosterone there is no more test production.
The testicular atrophy is what you have to recover from. Not the shut off. Your body shuts off its test production on its own. That's the point of the negative feedback loop.The point is to shut you down so your hormones stay balanced out like they're supposed to.
Also I wouldn't call Nolva a positive feedback loop. Positive feedback loops are self sustaining and continually increasing until they're stopped. Like a run a bank. People start running so others start running and as the size of the masses increase the more people will join.
A lot of this stuff is pretty available. Not much talk about steroids and PCT, but quite a bit on how your endocrine system works and what happens with testicular problems (every single one I've ever opened has had quite an extensive chapter on testicular atrophy). You don't have to be a doctor to order an endocrinology textbook. I can reference a few good ones which can easily be pirated. The text is pretty intimidating, but I mean come on you just read Treads wall of text I'm sure you can handle it.
It's a much better source than random guys online who's only source is experience with the compounds (which doesn't tell you much about what's happening on a microscopic scale), some doctor (who may or may not remember everything from med school), or some other source which really isn't a very good reference most likely.
tread-mAlright at first I thought you may be just trolling but having read all you were trying to help I think . First let me say, I have a thread somewhere where I spend the time telling people you need to mass research on anything said on here or anywhere else. You confirm it 100 times I believe I said and even then , your decisions are yours and you are resposible for them . I encourage that information even if your doc gave you info. Good example very recently a friend here took some info I gave him to his doc and doc said, "well, it looks good but I think maybe we need to increase estro give n your use with test will decrease that...lol. so let's face it, the average doc does not get a lot of knowledge about what we do. Much better off with an endo.
Next point, yes , there are varying degree's of shutdown. Most serious damage to the HPTA is done througbh use and abuse of 19's more often than not. With your anology you could run a test cycle for 10 weeks and "reboot". Or run a 20 week run with test and tren and reboot just as easily. Any of us who have been there know the latter is much further shut down and much harder to get back online as it were.
My information I share as I go is cumulative in and among a large community by where we continue to learn as opposed learning everything all at once. This is a piece of the puzzle and I appreciate your pieces and contributions as well. Not a complete story here though so don"t think of it as such.
Read again on the nolva, I think you missed the point. Its not a positive feedback loop, its a drug. The action and interaction of nolva will in effect cause a positive signal eventually to prompt LH. So go back and look closer in the wall of text (lol), I said you "sort of" have a positive feedback loop. I said that because, well, you do. You are sending a signal to the gland through artificial means and it is a "positive" signal to promote LH production. So if you have an actual negative feedback loop coming from the test side of the axis and an artificial Signal asking for the opposite from the gland, that's unnecessary confusion IMO. The positive feedback loop will be the action essentially taken by the production of gh having no balance in test and that lack of test will create the positive feedback.
Some good references on your part and yes, would be great if everyone would read into these and others but the problem is, most won't. So we do this. If we could simply post a book for everyone to read that explained it all and everyone would follow that there would really be no reason for eroids discussion at all. I'm with you though, read evrything you can get your hands on and understand what is going on in your body rather than just popping pills and pinning gear.
Supernova283Well the 19 nors I believe just shuts you down faster and maybe even more completely. The whole varying degrees of shutdown I think is bullshit. I believe that the word we want isn't shutdown, but suppression. Maybe some of these compounds suppress our production more than others, but there are no negatives in nature. You can't be more shut down than shut down.
Obviously if you're still producing small amounts of testosterone through suppression your atrophy won't be as bad. Like someone who's arm is in a sling vs someone who is in a coma. The person's muscles in the coma are going to be consumed much quicker than the person's arm muscles in the sling because the sling guy would still be tensing his arm at times and moving it slightly using it very little but still more than the guy not using him muscles at all.
The whole 10 week vs 20 week thing is way different. I said the atrophy is what causes you to not be able to return to normal instantly. with 20 weeks of atrophy you're going to be much worse off than with 10 weeks.
The whole hcg thing is great. If HCG really does truly keep you from atrophying then you should be much better off using it through cycle then all you'd have to do is stimulate hormone production again and you'd be gtg.
Now I have absolutely no experience with these compounds and as a man of science I know that theory vs lab results can be very very different. I'm just trying to spread what I know (because as you said I know most people aren't willing to spend that extra time looking through books and stuff) and I love having people who basically are not only willing, but eager to be the guinea pig and give me data (albeit they don't do it for the data), but I really do understand that theory can be very different from reality.
tread-mSuppression is probably a better way to put it, not sure its different in large part ;suppression caused shutdown or shutdown caused suppression or one in the same for all intents and purposes but the term suppression is probably more descriptive either way. Your right though, the lab is different from reality but we sort of are the ?ab I guess..lol. we are all just so unique so we take a protocol I guess and tweak to the individual need looking for something that resembles balance.
Supernova283Endocrinology by Mac E. Hadley and Jon E. Levine
Basic Medical Endocrinology by H. Maurice Goodman
Greenspan's Basic & Clinical Endocrinology by Dolores M. Shoback
Williams Textbook of Endocrinology
These are a few good places to start. Really though you guys should do your own research. And not the kind where you just trust something someone says because he sounds smart. Don't even trust me really. See for yourself.
Also I'd like to say that I'm not trying to attack tread, a lot of what he said was spot on, but this is your manhood. This is the thing that makes you great. Personally I would want to know as much as possible to protect it. A little bit of skimming or reading would do you good.
Supernova283Come on man I keep telling you. Space it out a little bit. It's so much easier to read. I promise it'll burn ~0 calories and isn't going to hinder your gains.
Just hit the enter key a few times. I mean even just like 5 or 6 times would do wonders.
tread-mL
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Supernova283N̖̳̭͍ͦ̀͐̈͗͊̚o̳̪̱̰̰͈̓w̲͎̮̰̖̦̥͎ͤͧͪ̇͋̽ ͉̗̻͍͕ͣ́d̘̯̟̰ͪ̆ͭ͆̀́̆̚o̹͎̪̮̖̘̠ͭ̉͒ͅń̟̫̹͚̼̱͎̺'̱͊̐ͤͫ̽̚t̙͓̗̤̖̽̆̓͂̏̅ ̦̍̑̒m̹͕̫ͥ͊à͉̻͚̲ͦ̀͂k̤͊͂ͩ̅̍̎ͤ̑e̬̩͆̿ ̭̦͖̓͆̒ͯ̀ͦ̉m̼̠̾̆̑͑̾ͦ̅̅e̘͈̲̫̞͔̦ͧ̒̌̇́ ̙̼̱̙͍̥̮̬ͧm̫̝͙̺̂ͥ̽̔̂́a͈̤̜̦͖̞̳̋ͮͮͪ́ͅd͎̼ͯ̈̎ͅ.̟ͨͬͩ̅̌ͣ.̯̞̟̳̣̇͗̚.͚̹̯̋ͣ̒̈́ͅ ͍̹̈́ͥͮͦ̀ͫ
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This is what happens when you let people from 4chan break free!
Supernova283Not from 4chan.
I'm from deep web. Besides who isn't familiar with memes? That's like saying your mom is from 4chan because she sent you a lolcatz picture.
Fantastic post again bro! informative and myth busting all rolled into one... this is a MUST for everyone to read if they give 2 shits about running successful cycles and looking after the HPTA with any degree of success.
Anyone considering long term use (which will be most on eroids)of aas MUST get a grasp on these principles to ensure any healthy longevity... like you said in the post i have seen and know people who have not followed these practises and now some of them are my age most are way younger and look like total bags of shite! zero sex drive,zero energy,zero will to f-ing live really... not my way for sure thats a fact! years ago info like this was impossible to get hold of even if big bucks were spent! you are worth your weight in gold to the community brother and going f-ing nowhere has long as i have a say
so adex on cycle and only use nolva if gyno symptoms occur and for pct
or aromasin 12.5mg eod/e3d- there are other compounds out there to help w/ gyno.. also you can simply up the adex/aromasin dose until gyno symptoms subside.
Articles like this remind me why I send you naked pictures of myself.
Holy Shit Dr. Tread.
+1, always full of good info , always wiling to share. Shit..... we even had a tread appreciation day. Thanks for info once again here and in pm
tread-mThanks Ike, always appreciate you too brother.
Sweet! Was having similar disagreement yesterday.
STICKY!!!!!
damn good article tread.. lots of good info in here.. +1 id give you more if i could bro.