+ 4 Who actually waits for to hit their genetic potential?
Touchy subject but one I think is worth discussing none the less. I would wager my whole stash that 90% of the lads here, myself included didn’t wait to hit their genetic potential before introducing aas into their life.
Are we setting an unrealistic goal for someone by saying you need to reach this stage to be then deemed worthy of touching steroids? Im not sure how long it would of taken me to reach my genetic potential, probably over 10 years of consistently living the life style if I was to take a guess. As stated 90% will probably throw caution to the wind and run a cycle before this anyway, as most of us probably did.
My view would be if you’re above the age of 25, have over 4 years of SERIOUS lifting under your belt (no curl-bros), know how to diet, can back this up by putting up a selfie showing and proving your physique and have decent stats for your goals weather that’s big and bulky, ripped and lean or in a weigh restricted sport etc I would personally say you’re ready for your first test only cycle.
I think it’s brilliant we as a community push responsible steroid usage and actually have a genuine interest in the health of all our members but I also think it’s important to set realist goals and not to make people feel they need to go against the community if they want to run gear, if in my opinion they’re ready to do so.
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I started weight training aged 27 after about 7 years of half-marathon running. Fucked up my knees so decided that maybe weights might be a nice alternative. I was natural until age 53 (I think - can't exactly remember the age). Then I started trying a little Test because I had plateaued in every aspect. For about the last 7-10 years I have run low dose cycles because I have always thought that 'less is more' - especially with hormones that can seriously affect your body. I like Test - it's mans best friend. Also like Deca - you get bloat, but strength and size: trouble is: with all AAS - it's temporary. Tren will fuck up your liver without any real benefit - it really is a poison - IMO. Anavar? Nice pumps - and that only applies to gym shoes. Here is a pic of me aged 42 - natty. Wish I could look like that now. So I guess that I'm saying that I waited to reach my genetic potential - probably waited too long.
I would have guessed you were on some test in that photo is you hadn’t told me! You’re a rare breed mate.
Badass shorts and white tennis shoes combo !
Really strict diet, cardio riding my bicycle 3ks each way to the gym 5-6 days of the week, no alcohol, no junk food, no sex (didn't have a GF), lot's of protein and serious (for me) training. I'm not rare - there are heaps of guys who look better than I did then who are natty. Yeah - the shorts - bought for about ten bucks and the joggers were generic knock-offs. Paying child support makes you very budget aware - at least in Oz. Was curious about Test even then, but had no contacts, no money and a government job - so yes mate - that is natty. But hey it ok to doubt. I look at the pic objectively now-a-days when almost everyone is juicing and say: I don't believe it either. It took me about 15 years of regular training 5-6 days a week and taking one month off a year to get there - from 63kg to 80kg. When I started gear - I put on about 20kg in a couple of years. Juice will certainly build you up, but there is a price to pay health wise. Just for perspective - here is the 1997 natural BB championships (I was 42 then) - starts of with the Masters class, can't say that I look even close: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38AEmc6mbMg
studmuffin
LOL. Well mate - I'm pretty proud of that achievement since I started out training at 63kg (138lbs). Took me 15 years to get to the 80kg (175lb) that I am there. I'm now about 87kg (190lb). Have dropped some size since I went back into hospital a few weeks ago. Heart Doc said "No gym!" Might have to give up the heavy weights - but hey....I have the pics to prove that once upon a time.....
You looked great man, and not far off it now either, you look brilliant in the other pics too. +s (no homo)
I do question your choices in shorts though ;-)
Thanks mate - the shorts I had bought when I was in my 20's - was pleased that I could still fit into them. Long gone now. I used them as a polishing rag for my Suzuki GSXR 750. Many thanks for the kind words - the cheque is in the mail (just don't try cashing it - Kim Jung-Un isn't my real name) ;-)
You're a Gixxer man, with Ninja in your name?! Shame on you ;-) Kwak 750... only supersport with a soul heh heh!
Keep the rubber side down
Loved the Gixxer. Fast, handled well, sounded great. The 'Ninja' is because I used to own a Kawa Ninja 250 and then a 650 Ninja. Both good bikes - really loved the styling and performance of the 2013 Ninja 250 (sold as a 300 in the US). Then bought a 2015 Ninja 650 - great bike but never really turned me on. I have always loved Italian twins. Recently sold the 650 and bought an Aprilia Shiver 750. GPR exhaust mate - sounds like heaven on a stick. I love this bike. Puts a smile on the dial as soon as I fire it up....Ninja 650 - 72hp - Aprilia 750 - 95hp...goes like a shower. I'm smiling just talking about it. :-)
Very interesting read and a lot of good thoughts! I was natty ti early 40's. At that time as a middle aged metabolism kicked in I turned to using gear and made immediate gains! + 1
Hey growmore, new member here, loved the read! I met the stated check list before my first cycle actually waited till 28 and so glad I waited. Sometimes it’s hard to make the right choice but with some patience and research and a good head on ya, in hindsight one can look back and realize it was the right move.
I was hoping to get your opinion on a matter that extended this out a bit more. Tried to pm but couldn’t. After the first run or two, how does one know when they are truley ready to introduce another compound with their test? I feel like everyone’s different and being honest with ourselves is a key like how much do one knows about things like estrogen, prolactin, and the works. but it’s really got me wondering about when ones truly ready to go from say a test only cycle to possibly something like test+Deca or something similar? Is there a good checklist for taking that next step?
WElcome mate. I’ve sent you a F/r and happy to give my humble opinion on things although I still class my self as a beginner in this sport!
Good thoughts GM, +'s
There is definitely a pretentious undertone at times, where people see a specific weight or age and auto-reply with a foxtrot oscar comment. I agree largely with you and dont even particularly want to see peoples pics before I give advice or thoughts.
I just want to see them as close as possible to having full brain development ( >25yo) and having a serious knowledge of how to train properly/build muscle and then at least a little research into what they want to do and how to do so safely.
One caveat though for me, always, is that if someone is experiencing a current health issue (bad pct, or ED issues or lipid issues etc. etc.) they deserve immediate advice.
I would 100% agree with you on your last statement and also having full mental development.
Damage limitation is number one and there is plenty of time to point fingers and say I told you so after things get back on track.
most of the people dont,this days fuck me I didn't !! I v been training for 15 years and and the first 8 years was doing everything wrong ...everything!! ffs I started aas weighting 185 pounds or something @6 ,1 was terrible for me to do .atleast iv learned the hard way !!
I hear you on that one! I spent the first 3 years not training legs!
I think I was at my max natty potential before using any AAS. Once I hit the ripe old age of 40 and had to go on TRT is when I first really considered running any steroids. Had a good 25+ yrs of training in by that time. When I really seemed to blossom though was when I started researching and learning about nutrition. Couldn't make any more gains from the gym so that is when I got more detailed about my nutrition and supplements. Thought I was at my plateau but that took me even further. Then I think I hit my max potential because the scale wouldn't move any further even with proper training and a meticulus diet. Could have been since my natural T was now in the shitter though. TRT gave me my energy back and hardened me up a bit but really wasn't putting much weight on me. Now came running a cycle to take it to the next level.
Great post.
Hold my hands up to you mate, your physique speaks for itself also.
Would you advice that we all wait till we are 40 to hit our natural potential?
If I only knew then what I know now I would have hit my genetic potential way before 40. The amount of info we have easily available now with this internet thing is incredible. All we had back then was Arnold's encyclopedia of Bodybuilding. The real problem now is people putting that knowledge into practice to actualyl make a transformation of their physique and push it to its natural potential. They think they can skip that and move right into steroids. It often doesn't turn out well and you wouldn't even think they are on steroids because they look the same.
Do we have to squeeze every bit of natty potential out before running a cycle? I don't think that is really practical but they have to at least show me they have made great strides and have a good knowledge base with nutrition and training first before running a cycle.
RustyhookerFolks will do whatever they want to do. Nothing has ever been different.
But as long as dudes pop in smaller than high schoolers and post up big cycles, its common sense and safety until the site changes in its entirety.
So imo, unless the mods drop the safety clause and we morph into those other sites its status quo. Folks dumping crap info to bean poles will get negged.
I agree, it’s a lot easier to be black and white with the amount of people wanting to jump on too early. In my time at eroids I don’t actually think I’ve seen one person who reached their genetic potential before hitting the needle though.
RustyhookerTheres been a few back when this site started. Theyre still here and have hit nationals or turned pro.
I was fully sponsored by golds and 2 other gyms at 20, all natural. I waited til 28 to hit gear. Hitting 41 for me has been a solid chore. I went from burning fat to visable abs easily in 6 weeks to anytime pasta is eaten i gotta bust ass to look like power lifter. Metabolism shift has been a bitch.
Tested my gh levels and they're tanked. So gonna try low dose to boost metabolism back up. We shall see....
Last few years in forums the gap between genetic potential and no base whatsoever has been the issue. We all know a dude 6ft with solid base at 200 is much better than the typical 175 kids. But then again, they're all magically 25
Nail on the head!
Hardly anyone on here much less off here who reached their genetic potential before learning and understanding PED optimization and utilizing it.
To those that did, great. You are very, very rare.
To the larger portion of the population who are ADULTS, educating them is the best option because if they are asking they are 1. Already doing it. 2. Already committed to doing it.
Some insane asinine dosage posts of course deserved to be negged but there have been some pretty genuine newbies asking decent questions over the short time I've been here that simply get chewed out because they are not 25yrs of age and over 200lbs and below 10-15% body fat yet.
The reality is, if some of those people were already over 200lbs and lower bodyfat they may not have even been here looking for guidance unless they were looking to compete or simply surpass their genetic potential.
The odd thing about "genetic potential" is there is NO ONE here that can 100% accurately state when/if any one person has or has not already reached their genetic potential!
Those that have been training natty in that they have only used non-prescription PED's along with diet and solid training regime could not tell whether they hit their potential limit as opposed to a more likely hood of a plateau.
For someone to speak on another "not reaching their genetic potential" what formula are you using to state that with 100% accuracy? Please do share that with the rest of us.
If we are simply using "averages or norms" based on how the average person stops growing at x-amount of years or that someone should be at least x-amount of weight and bodyfat that is not even going to be accurate within the likely hood of 75%.
Some people stop growing by 18-19 and some after 25 if obviously 25yrs of age is the norm in which is being referenced.
I would truly love to know the scientific formula (should it exist) that allows the argument of hitting ones genetic potential and it to be known with accuracy.
I'm not attempting to be spiteful in debating this specificity that some use to caution newbies (with genuine good intent) but when it is used to flame and chastise maliciously, you better have something better than "your not 25yrs old yet or your not over 200lbs or under 12% bodyfat" as your rebuttal.
I competed on stage as a natural pro at just before my 21st bday. Did I reach my genetic potential because I was a Pro? No. However I may have based on the many years I put in with solid commitment to the sport.
Truth is, I don't know and neither does anyone else.
Let us be EDUCATORS not instigators or chastisers to those posing "legit questions with in reason" as opposed to just torching the OP with negative responses.
If you feel uncomfortable in providing an answer that will sufficiently be useful, it is perfectly OK if you don't.
RustyhookerLong story there. But you know as well as anyone that the folks posting 25 are 18. Its not some secret.
But if folks cosign a seriously undersized person its a simple karma adjustment thats gonna happen. Regardless of excuse. Try finding a decent log or forum in the last 3 years..... back to back tren cutter recomp bulkers at 6ft 175. Shit, at that size just quit eating. Lol
Even more to the point that anyone on here could actually be any age/height/weight since there is zero verification process. Even more reason to give sound research options regardless of what an OP's profile says.
As for the silliness of "stupid things to do while on tren or other compounds" I know of several guys 25-40+ abusing the crap out of it not including the morons that have actual youtube channels and sharing their "1400mg+ tren cycles" etc.
Tren has wiped out two athletes that I know of both over the 25yr mark because they abused that one specifically for what were apparently multi-year long cycles with only slight adjustments of lowering at times.
Frankly, on here we don't ever know who is asking what much less legitimately 100% knowing who is giving answers as to whether they themselves are even over 25yrs of age. We can only speculate.
The real goofy posts are often thrown to caution as potential users under 25yrs of age but even that is not something that we can verify.
My point, is simply that we are better stewards to the health of those on here by offering sound and logical research options for people to fully understand what they are getting into. Helping them be aware of safe/safer/safest ways of utilization based on their own research.
Anyway, seems like we most on here are genuinely concerned for others health but when I see some decent questions getting flamed/negged etc. or several people in a row giving the same negative or belittling comment rather than just bypassing since it was already done, it certainly gives the appearance to those who asked (much less those now to afraid to ask anything who just scroll the posts) that this is just another board of angry keyboarders.
They will then potentially cause greater harm to themselves since "they did not learn anything from those who have been down the path" or worse, go to another site that instead of giving them a heads up on better options etc. (rather than just flaming) they will encourage dangerous and unhealthy practices since its the norm there.
Its no different than WAR.
We can all pretend that its a "just cause" and in some cases it is but it certainly isn't in every case. We can share only the glory stories of past soldiers but often we do not hear about the extreme "in humane shit" that often occurs as well. It is WAR. There is plenty of good with all the bad about it and those entering into that field of profession are best served getting the full story and not just the fluff.
No much else to say without repeating myself but just something I noticed and saw that this was a great thread to bring it up.
Stay safe and train for purpose!
RustyhookerNo dumb questions...true!
But what we get here daily is "whats your full layout etc etc"?
Trying to see full picture when Captain SaveAhoe jumps in with..ya i would use that dose. COSIGNED
Now dude straight splits with effed up info but later comes back jacked up leaky nips and brokedick.
So, 1 question doesnt cover anything. Thats what drew me to eroids when i was already at other sites. We ask questions. Last 3 years is captain saveahoeland. Lol.
Look at cycles forums. Theres one right bold and apparent
I'll have to check it out!
I waited until I was out of the military. I was 28. 10 years in the Air Force and I worked out all the time, all natural though. I was shredded but plateaued @185lbs. I’ll tell you this, I worked out harder when I was natty, I’ve recenrly started to get my intensity back, as I was letting the juice do the work and was slacking. Good post!
You’re a rare breed mate!
I say wait as long as you can.
I waited 9 years until I was 26 and 235 pounds. Glad as hell I did. I’ve never lost much post cycle. Worst case scenario I just drop back to my natty stats and at that point people were already accusing me of using.
Every pound gained natty before gear counts as two after you get on the juice.
I like the idea of waiting for as long as you can because as each year goes by you learn more and your body develops.
I don’t believe your last statement though as we wouldn’t had pros in that case.
The one pound natty = 2 enhanced statement?
I’m exaggerating. But my point was that development without drugs is a deciding factor in how far you can take it with them for MOST guys. (Non genetic elite)
Fact is 99 percent of us will never hit it on gear. The problem I see is there's a hell of a lot of guys on here that are using gear that are at a beginner stage. Some of them even have quite a bit of karma. I think you really need to have a solid base to get anything your going to maintain out of it.
That’s it mate, a solid base you can prove with a photo. Then have the wealth of knowledge of the community behind you.
A picture is worth a 1000 words.
Learning never ceases to those of us who wish to constantly progress.
As for this site, it is great to see people attempting to positively influence others in their quest as a body sculptor however, I do see a little to much "aggression" to those that maybe doing as they see fit as an adult.
There is nothing wrong with sharing cautionary tales but truth is that AGE is not the only factor nor is current Body Composition.
There are many over 25 that will have and/or establish far worse consequences using PED's than some who may start much earlier. Just as there are many that will start at a higher bodyfat percentage and end up closer to their goals than someone with less.
Once you are 18yrs of age you are apparently ready to be an adult and even go to war.
Whether that is full maturation of the body and mind is irrelevant as those people are indeed at the "age of majority" and with rare exception are capable of making decisions that will always have impact on them in the future.
When someone is ready should be more than just age and or current shape as there are many athletes with amazing genetics who are already blowing away those over 25yrs of age that may have years of training and PED use.
Is it fair to chastise them as I've seen frequently when they make an inquiry in the attempt to acquire more knowledge from those who are already where they want to go?
Is it fair to chastise someone who is 33yrs of age and much higher bodyfat than what many "claim to be at" on hear but rarely post a picture?
I believe almost all information need be available for those willing to do the research and part of research (if you are smarter than most) is to get it from those who have the knowledge directly rather than taking copious amounts of time sifting through various articles etc. that often conflict.
Just my opinion and again I do respect that we want everyone to be safe but we have to remember that people are going to do what they want regardless. If solid advice (outside of the obvious most will put forth) is given, you give them the chance to actually be as safe as possible and progress.
As for me, I am one of those who did plenty of research at a very young age compared to most and the rest is history, like it or not.
Please note I am not advocating abuse or use before adulthood
Education is number one and why we are all members here. No other community is like eroids
Exactly!
Definitely not nearly as much "angry keyboarding" here but I do see quite a few newbies getting their ass handed to them in a less than polite manner considering several others will have already done so.
That is not the best way to foster growth of the community much less ensure that person will heed any warnings.
Kids much less adults, have zero tolerance in being belittled and again it does nothing to assist in EDUCATING the person asking the question.
It is so much easier to not post anything if the posters question upsets you etc. than to just come out and bash them for asking something in the first place.
When it comes to PED use there is NO RIGHT WAY.
There are safe, safer and safest ways/options and each person must choose on their own (after getting relevant info) as to which they will do.
EDUCATION is key and nothing will sink in if it is presented in a manner that is hostile or purposely flames the OP.
At worst, don't post anything.
At best, post with some clarity on the options they are considering (pros/cons) along with providing alternative options in a manner that YOU would want someone to share with you.
Angered people do even more dangerous things and that would completely be the reverse of what we all would want for anyone on here.
Train for PURPOSE!
Also, there is NO such thing as waiting until you are "X amount of weight or body fat" to make PED use worth while or to have success with it when properly informed on how to use them in the safest manner possible. No offense to those stating this but if one has to be 200-220+ before using it and lean...that would nullify 95% of the active guys on here including myself and there is not many on here I would be worried about standing next to on stage. At my height and at just 200lbs contest shape, I am a monster compared to most and 220+ a super freak. I am looking forward to hitting a solid offseason number of 240lbs. If I had waited until I was 200lbs, well let's just say at my height and bone structure to do so naturally with all the knowledge I have, excellent diet/training regime specified for growth, it would not have happened. It took me a decade to break 200 from the time I truly started using PED's with the specific intent on turning pro again (I was a natural pro) and thus the statements on being x-amount of weight or bodyfat are clearly muddying the waters. If someone wants to drop bodyfat whether they are 10% or 30% there are compounds that can be used to do so...I mean, there are not to many PROS that are not 20-60+lbs heavier in their offseason then contest and most are well above 20%. Just keeping it real
But there is a range -even for different "body types".
Are you suggesting that someone pushing 300 lbs with 54% BF would benefit from AAS? Most likely it would benefit a mortuary instead.
Conversely, someone who is 6' and 165 lbs they too would benefit? With a higher metabolism and no foundation for diet and exercise he might actually lose weight.
There is a range anyone can attain to MAXIMIZE the results of AAS use. I agree those who claim you need to be 10% BF are talking shit and the weight has to do a lot with your height, body type, and current condition. Someone who is 6'3" and 175 lbs is a big red flag where the 5' 6" guy at 175 is not.
Your later statement is what I was referencing too.
Plenty of guys under 5'10 and under 200lbs that look great since 5'10/175lbs would be the expected "top end" for a natural athlete in most cases.
Also, I said PED's which includes AAS but is not solely AAS.
If someone were very obese (clinically obese patients get prescription meds to help reduce weight) of course their are safe/safer/safest PED's that can be used in which to assist in dropping bodyfat. I specified 30% bodyfat several times as reference for a reason as that would be within the norms of those coming on here seeking advice looking for weight loss.
Would they be good candidates for any and all AAS, likely not.
Please note (if it was not clear) that I said what I did while referencing that people on here believe there is a way to verify while being highly accurate what someone's "genetic potential" should be on a per individual basis. Noting that I personal would not have "qualified" under these highly subjective standards even though I was 21yrs of age with several committed years to the sport and having been one of the lucky few to step on a pro stage to compete.
I was closer to 150lbs (139-140lbs contest weight) and around 8% bodyfat when and under 25yrs old when I started optimizing PED's for the purpose of sport. At 5'5" on a tall day, most on here would have deterred me from furthering my pursuit and likely even as proving myself as a pro competitor.
My weight alone would have had so many "negging and flaming" much less my age but that would have been incorrect to do much less the fact that I was very young when I realized "learning through mentorship" was the smartest option to success and to not worry about what the average person thought.
Since then, I have reached a solid 223lbs (up until recently as I was prepping) at around 8-9% bodyfat (yep same height) and that would never have occurred without PED use no matter how much knowledge one could accumulate over a lifetime much less the decades I've put in now.
So again, if there is a formula I would love to hear it. That way we can ALL make better suggestions to newbs posting on here that are genuinely interested in LEARNING from others who wish to MENTOR.
I ran my first cycle right before the age of 26. I had a solid 6 years of training at that time and doing it well for at least two years. I thought that I had hit my genetic potential at that point. 5 years later I’ve ran 5 cycles. Everything I’ve learned about diet, sleep, nutrition timing, and exercise physiology in that time has convinced me that I surely could have gone further before touching AAS. We can ALWAYS learn more, especially at a young age.
We both will be saying the same thing in 5 years time! I’m constantly learning new things about the lifestyle which I couldn’t live without now!
sexualtyrannasaurusalot of people on here look natty while on steroids
so I'm sure they didn't wait for their "genetic potential"
No doubt about it.
These people would fall under the category of not knowing how to diet, lift or sleep.
sexualtyrannasaurusI think you should be at least 180 -190 pounds before running anything.
I think it should be based on basic strength levels like guys use to practice back in Dorians day - 150kg bench/220kg deads etc. Anyone can be 200lbs before lifting a weight but strength can't be cheated or built in a day...Now I see clowns cycling who can't even press 100kg * 8r
Even if the guy is 5 foot and 35% bf? This is where a photo helps and it can be an educated decision.
I agree. I'd like to add I've seen some guys around 5 ft 6 that look pretty damn big st 170.