+ 14 Better response to AAS with IGF
I have been doing a lot of research lately on IGF and one interesting tidbit I came across was the potential that IGF has to make you a better responder to AAS. You can run less AAS and get more bang for your buck. This would seem particularly useful for those of us who have been running cycles for a long time and seem or think that we need to up the dose or increase the stack to get desired results, or even worse we hardly seem to grow anymore. Now what I am reading is that IGF , for lack of a better term, resets your sensitivity to AAS. This may be overstating it a bit but you can basically get back to newbie gains with just running a simple cycle again or with lower doses than what you normally would need.
From what I could piece together from all of the scientific jargon leading up to this is due to the effect that IGF has on the myoblasts within your cells. Apparently what happens is that IGF fuses the myoblasts in your existing cells which then donate their nuclei to cell and hence more myonucleii become present in the cell. These myonculeii are the protein synthesis mechanism within a cell so the more of them you have in a cell the greater the ability that cell has to regenerate protein, i.e. grow. Now, AAS are what stimulate the myonucleii and make them hyperactive so the more myonucleii we can have in a cell the better we will respond to AAS. By increasing the mynucleii we are now more responsive to AAS making it easier to build muscle. Hopefully someone with a little more knowledge on this could shed some more light on it but it sure seems like an interesting effect of IGF that no one really seems to talk about. It all seems to be about hyperplasia with IGF but I found this to be of great interest also.
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Yes there is a synergy between the two. However a lot of it is due to the fact that HGH acts like an "Insulin switch" shuttling the Glycogen to muscle stores and blocking it from fat stores. Therefore the effect of AAS is multiplied and enhanced!
Nice post dude, just found it!
Do you have advice for who is making real IGF-1 LR3 and who’s is the best to run to find out what you wrote about?
PM me please, if you could!
Thanks
Enough stated and explained here on the proven and known synergistic effect between IGF1, GH and AAS, There is no wonder as the growth (anabolic) mechanism in the body is based on these three
I would like to bring the following interesting info to this discussion - there is a certain hype around "real" IGF1 AKA Increlex. Increlex is indeed the only FDA approved IGF1 for growth failure.
However the only FDA approved IGF1 for anti-aging purposes is an IGF1-lr3 - https://www.vicrin.com/?page_id=180.
So by any means and standards the IGF-lr3 version is as suited (And more potent) then the endogenous IGF1, and our extensive research have found no real life advantage, at least not for the member's purposes, of the Increlex over to the IGF1-lr3 (Somedin).
Mak, you might find this interesting. Its a little long winded... but bear with me. The GH (and IGF) ability to enhance metabolism and keep gains coming while regulating lipolysis is fascinating. I found the general studies I read on how muscle building happens with gh/igf to be............ wishy washy for want of a better way to describe it all, mainly because there is no massive muscle growth with basic above normal IGF levels....
Recently, I developed insulin resistance in a bad way and reactive hypoglycaemia as a result; I also hit a really, really weird plateau in muscle building (and thd same plateau for fat accumulation too, which was really odd!). I couldnt build muscle and didn't put on fat (over 7Kcals), did all the usual approaches to breaking it. The only thing that made a difference was dropping AAS completely while doing a carb reset (for insulin resistance), then some limited gains happened again, beyond glycogen (I was measuring my delts growth as a marker mainly).
Got me thinking... the way cells become resistant to insulin, strikes me the same happens with androgens, gradually requiring more then boom, you end up where I was and multiples of an original dose do not induce growth.
On the trail, something shocked me.... I learned even Testosterone can activate the estrogen receptor.....
Shocked me a little to be honest.
Then, trying to figure it all out to remove the 'plateau;...... I read a prostate cancer/androgen receptor/IGF study recently. It identified a molecule that was correlated with prostate cancer but that also regulated muscle growth Foxo1 from the foxO family (there are other molecules foxO3 etc.)
Anyways... long story short.... foxO's bind to the AR and stop them working for muscle growth....IGF stops them doing this by reacting them. So IGF itself also then ccan go ahead and activate the androgen receptor itself (like testo can do for estrogen receptors - shows how little even the experts know)......... SO.... while I am not saying that you dont grow any muscle and dont hyperplasia it and grow again with gh/igf... I am gonna say the bigger factor is that it will actually protect and promote the andro receptor.
That is to say, IGF is a co-buddy to the androgen receptor.... it protects it from being inactivated by these foxO molecules (and other molecules, no doubt) and it can also activate it. Same sort of way that metformin helps with insulin resistance in cells.
Sorry off topic but how did you know you developed insulin resistance and reactive hypoglycaemia? The reason I ask is I have had some hypoglycaemic episodes when using fast carbs post exercise off cycle / just on trt but completely normal fasting glucose (in fact a bit low), normal to very low levels during a 4 hour glucose tolerance test.
Endo decided to do no further testing given the issues seemed to resolve by adding another dose of fast carbs/fruits about 45mins to an hour following my initial post exercise fast carbs containing shakes. Ive never been fully satisfied with th outcome however the endos view is to further investigate gets complex, costly and invasive so from a cost benefit perspective he advised against it. Happy to chat in PM if it’s easier and not to detract from the topic here.
Hey Dacky,
Yeah it was a sustained exposure to Vfast acting carbies. Initially, the only very fast ones I used was Vitargo, but then soda drinks peri/post workout to keep the glycogen levels up. It started happening after workouts, maybe 2 hours or 3 after last intake of fuel. Then it became worse over time, eat carbies, even cous cous for example, and boom, sometimes during the meal or very shortly after the insulin dump was horrific and sustained. Answer, eat more carbs, keep the cycle going perpetually unless you significantly lower carbs intake and / or cycle them. I am a proponent of cyclical bulking and carb cycling (learned from Ben Pakulski's programs) - but even that stopped working. Simply means the insuin producing beta cells were going nuts (they eventualy breakdown completely and I think irreversibly)
So, true solution 1 is very significantly curtain carbs or remove from diet (removing suits me when off bulk)
Medical option/solution 2 is give beta cells a rest medically, but cannot discuss that here.
2 things led me to figuring it out when the docs wouldnt even do what yours is trying. 1 finding out that knowing blood glucose levels without knowing fasting insulin levels is almost pointless. 2. learning about how the beta cells work and various ways of how to rest them.
Its definitely relevant to the OT, because everything we do, carbs juice etc, causes the body to fight to get back to normal, and also causes loss of sensitivity. There are good ways and bad ways to regain it though.
Did you get fasting insulin levels measured? See if you are under or overproducing insulin over time?
I don’t believe they did ever measure my fasting insulin. This was of course going to be part of the next steps if we took it further. We were going to measure capillary blood glucose at multiple points during he day and eventually we were looking at a 72 hour fasting glucose test but given the issue resolved we took it no further. I will add fasting insulin to my next set of blood works planned for about a months time and then going forward to track this over time as you say.
Interestingly this was happening mainly when I was low carb dieting and then having a large (30g to 60g dose of vitargo) post workout. I’ve now moved onto higher carbs generally - still cycling carbs both when dieting, maintenance and on the bulk - I’ve dropped protein quite a bit to allow for this especially when dieting. Stopped using vitargo in favour or cyclic dextrin and have 400g fresh pineapple about 45min to 1 hour post workout and haven’t had an issue since.
If you pop over to the Advanced Group you will see what I have planned for next year on the bulk and this is one of the reasons I’m interested and being extra cautious here. Otherwise let’s continue the chat in PM.
This is for actual igf I thought...
IGF-LR3 is primarily what I am talking about.
Yeah cause imo hgh is a waste of money for "muscle gains"
Sure I'm leaner and the bulk in my muscle (water) makes me look good, but real muscle gain naw.
I do love the 25 plus pounds of muscle water I hold though lol. And ive used up to 18iu a day for experimental purposes
Systematic igf just doesn't live up to its bro hype vs igf des/lr3/increlix.
Hence why i have 25 kits of serostim laying around.
GH is basically a luxury and not really needed for most. I do think that the GH/IGF combo however is the next best thing since sliced bread when looking to take it to the next level. I also think GH becomes more useful the older you get.
You know what's weird...
Most studies (like all) don't mention muscle growth with hgh. We overly hear LBM but eventually read its not skeletal muscle. However there was one where when combined with igf there was skeletal muscle growth.
So it needs actual igf to make hgh work?
So lost already...
there are alot of golden nuggets in this post in case you haven't seen it.
https://www.eroids.com/forum/hgh-peptides/rhgh/why-hgh-when-we-have-igf1
As in you're not bothered using them? Not even in combo?
I'm done with hgh...
So no...I won't be using them.
They'll find homes I'm sure...I'm just over the hype.
And things grow that Id rather not have growing.
That's really interesting. Cool
I just thumbed up my own post...now I can't fix it.
I blame you...lol
basskiller89Always on point brother!
I'm in week 4 of my first GH AAS run and all I can say is IGF makes a huge difference lol I actually don't think I would run gear again without a low dose of GH
Makwa - When we experiment to incorporation of IGF1-lr3 with IGF1-DES ?
I do believe in a synergistic effect her as well, this combination will overload both the systemic growth path with the autocrine path
I am cutting right now so I am saving a big IGF blast for when get on a bulk and take advantage of it for a growth phase. Might have to run some ideas by you for running a lr3/DES combo.
IGF1 do wonders on cutting bother, it's proven to have a distinct and unique anti catabolic effect (wen compared to GH which by itself is very anabolic and anti catabolic). Generally I would incorporate IGF with GH at any phase as long as the budget permits it s they have a proven synergistic effect (As show below on the scientific references).
I run now special deals for any member - https://www.eroids.com/special-21-on-sciroxx-domestic-and-always-the-bes..., and on the top of this will offer BOGO on the IGF1 s well as on the GH for any one who will log along diet and report along the process with feedback and results
For some references to support and explain these -
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9129466
------------conclusions -
GH and IGF-I combined further enhanced fat oxidation while reducing protein catabolism. Serum insulin concentrations were significantly increased by GH but decreased by IGF-I. GH significantly decreased serum total triiodothyronine concentrations and IGF-I significantly decreased serum corticosterone concentrations.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10571453
-----------results and conclusions
RESULTS:
Administration of IGF-I, but not GH, attenuates dexamethasone-induced protein catabolism and increases insulin sensitivity. Simultaneous treatment with GH and IGF-I additively increases the serum concentration of IGF-I, whole-body anabolism, and lipid oxidation. GH or IGF-I when given alone produces similar increases in the serum concentration of IGF-I. However, GH selectively increases skeletal muscle mass whereas IGF-I selectively attenuates the intestinal atrophy and abnormal intestinal ion transport induced by TPN. These tissue-selective anabolic effects of GH and IGF-I are associated with differential increases in protein synthesis in skeletal muscle and jejunum, respectively.
CONCLUSIONS:
Simultaneous treatment with GH and IGF-I may offer the greatest clinical efficacy because of improved nitrogen retention in association with enhanced lipid oxidation and stimulation of protein synthesis in multiple tissue types.
mrlozozto put it in laymens term
you reach a ceiling with AAS alone,
once you hit that you incorporate gh
and then insulin among other peptides in the higher ranks (igf1 etc)
also the incorporation of gh reduces sides by using less getting more and also keeping your bloodwork generally healthier,
eg,
2g test e a week,
you could get more off 750mg teste a week with 4iu decent gh a day, hope it makes sense
jayisk"you reach a ceiling with AAS alone".., didn't know AAS made you taller. Learn something everyday here.
Testosterone (and other AAS, especially with high androgenic index) increases the sensitivity of of satellite cells to IGF1 (As well as other growth factors), it was proven is multiple clinical research on humans (in Vivo) and of course in in vitro models
IGF1 and androgens has a distinct synergistic effect so 1+1=5 in this case. So just as Makwa suggested the presence of exogenous IGF1 will yield much more from any steroid stack, especially on long term results due to hyperplasia (increase is muscle fibers number)
RustyhookerWould be nice to add mass on low dose stacks. Less sides, simpler, less ai....nice read! Will be watching for more
great post thanks for the info I was reading up on igf with a friend and this helps us out.
Good post. I believe this does happen, whether taking igf1 or gh. Either way can help you use less doses of anabolics. The synergy between the 2 together is much more powerful than either one alone. It just takes time and patience. +1
+1
So does it matter whether it is is IGF-1 LR or DES?
I would suspect LR3.
Is this perhaps even specific to INCRELEX which is the IGF-1 of choice that most of us will not ever come across?
Like the sounds of it.
Nice post Makwa!!!
Most of what I can find as far results in bodybuilders and dosing and protocols is all about LR3. So basically LR3 is a prime candidate for inducing hyperplasia and increasing these myonucleii as well. I would also have to assume that DES would elicit the same effects but there is likely going to be a differerent dosing protocol with it. I am planning on giving some DES a try this next cycle to see if I can get the same or better results compared to the LR3 that I have used for a couple of cycles now.
Funny you brought this up mate....... I was thinking of just staying on 100mg test e and hgh for the next year.
With short blasts of igf as my "cycles". Mainly to have a long break from steroids but to also see what results this method reveals.
Did your research mention how long this "reset" would take,doses ect....?
From what I can gather the reset is continually happening while on the exogenous IGF. I have no clue if it would be happening to a greater degree with more IGF or not, but I would suspect so and once you go off it stops. I haven't seen any dose vs myonucleii formed charts but at some point you have to be concerned about growing the gut so the tricky part here is finding your individual dose that gives the greatest myonucleii but not growing the gut. Lots of IGF protocols out there but currently it seems about 40-50mcg seems to be a fairly safe dose to get the max benefits and preventing gut growth. We are all guinea pigs right now with IGF.
The igf gut is actually a very real concern of mine and it's the reason I've put off using it for so long.
I'm not going to just jump straight in. I've been reading every spare minute I have and will continue to do so in till I'm confident enough to go ahead and give it a go.
Also wondering if using igf with hgh is pointless???
I personally would never use IGF without HGH. There is too much synergy not to run them together.
crap. sorry. deleted post
Sorry if these questions seem ignorant mate just trying to understand more........
What does hgh do that igf doesn't or vice versa?
there is some good discussion in here about that
https://www.eroids.com/forum/hgh-peptides/rhgh/why-hgh-when-we-have-igf1
Ha, Never mind to the above post. reading this answered it.
Thanks Mak will take a look ;)
Compounded (real) IGF1 is now available (HRT clinic contacted me recently).....sumthing you might want to look into......there may be a trusted source looking into IGF1 also....that would be cool if it happens
I’d like to see you use real IGF1 and give us some honest feedback compared to the analogs (LR3/Des)
WOW!
It is great to see HRT clinics finally doing this.
I started out with one back in the day (based on relocating) and progressed from there but it would be great to finally have a way to test from a compounded option from a clinic.
There are some options on this platform and one in particular that a few of us have used that is certainly doing quite well regards to results.
Now if we are talking IGF-1 INCRELEX (that is a big hope) we are talking apples and oranges and thus not even comparable.
INCRELEX is the mighty compound that will have that company selling out fast depending on price.
Price being the HUGE factor since its currently only available through a guy in France and is NOT cheap by any means from what I've heard.
Ah yes we were pushing a couple of trusted sources to take a look at this so let’s hope at least once comes to the table with some legit IGF reasonably priced. Am am super keen to give it a go. Even the anti-aging prices where I am are cost prohibitive.
Yes.
Fairly certain I know of one and I am very hopeful they can make the breakthrough on it.
Pricing will be interesting!!!
Exactly we have discussed pricing and where it would need to be. If one of these guys does it and does it right (quality/price) they stand tk make a bucket in my view. It slaps one of these things that would take time for another lab to replicate so you have a significant first mover advantage. For me this is the real game changer I am waiting for. Let’s hope it sees the light of day!
I think it would be awesome to do a run with that and see the results. If you want shoot me a pm and I can maybe get in touch with the source.
Great read makwa. This was informative. Can I give u a
+1
Thanks makwa, this is very interesting and something I'm going to follow.
When you talk about increasing IGF are you talking about doing so by supplementing IGF-1?
Yes. This would be due to pinning exogenous IGF.
I'll have to dig back and find it, but there was some talk about exogenous IGF on here recently that mentioned there were some dangers/concerns with running it - just in terms of it being something you have to be very careful with. I was interested until i read that and it kinda turned me off a bit to be honest, but maybe it's something I need to have another look at. At the end of the day there are dangers with all compounds to an extent, even simple test.