posted Tue, 01/16/2018 - 23:16
9654
Experience with keto on cycle for bulking
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Does anyone have prior experience or is currently on keto while on cycle to bulk? I am not interested in people cutting with keto, looking for people that have had success with bulking on keto and also on gear.
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Ive done it successfully. Somewhat slower rate of growth than all out carbs and you need to watch your lipids (use nicotonic acid if needed).
Most people havent an iota as to what 'keto' actually is and people who believe you cannot grow muscle whilst fat adapted just dont know what they are talking about. That's not an insult.... they just dont understand it. Unless done properly and actually experienced it cannot be truly appreciated.
If interested, learn about fat adaption and fat metabolism (forget 'keto', 'ketogenic diet' and completely ignore talk of CKD etc.). Once successfully in a fat metabolism state and fully fat adapted (2 different things), all of the negative stuff below goes out the window.... as do the cookiecutter BS macros people like to bang on about for some reason. Instagram generation to blame there.
In a fully fat adapted ketogenic state you can build muscle with a lovely 100 points testo bump it brings, burn fat in a caloric surplus and quite literally enjoy a better working brain which helps digest this voodoo magic. Oh, you can also eat thebtrue amount of protein needed for protein synthesis and balance as well as a good enough amount of carba to help maintain fullness and energy for the HIT work involved.
True story.
what does this look like for someone wanting to bulk while using AAS?
No carbs no bulk
Not much more I can add here other than keto for a cut, yes, keto for a bulk, no.
Based upon Science, as I understand it...
Carbs can be converted to Fat for energy storage...
Protein can be converted to Sugar for energy...
Fat can only be stored as such or used for energy (ketosis)...
Thus, using Keto for bulking is counterintuitive...considering that the foundation is high fat, moderate protein, minimal carbs; I don't see where you can bulk with this combination...
If you're intending to get the "bulk" from more protein you are placing a huge amount of stress on liver... not to mention the cardiovascular stresses from high fat mixed with AAS...
Your body shifts into ketosis as an alternative fuel source... it's responding to lack of glucose, and shifting towards utilizing fat reserves... and you're stoking the fires by adding fat to remain in ketosis...
Your body is not in an anabolic state during this...
In short, stick to what hundreds of thousands of Bodybuilders have done before you... it's already been broken down to a science & there has been countless experimentation...
Protein + Carbs = ideal bulking combo
Based on the biochemistry and nutrition that I understand, trying to utilize a keto style diet is just not conducive to quality bulking. As brooklyn said below, the main concept of a keto diet is for ketone production, this won't occur in a caloric surplus.
Your body can upregulate it's rate and ability to oxidize QUALITY carbohydrates which the energy will most likely be released in the form of heat from your body. This makes it unlikely for your body to convert a QUALITY carbohydrate into fat and then store it as adipose tissue. Your body can only upregulate fat oxidation so much. What this means is, once your body reaches its energy needs or requirements, your body will store the remaining dietary fat as adipose tissue. So based on the science, I would expect someone to gain very significant body fat when trying to bulk on a "keto diet."
As we know, genetics can override everything. It's possible that your genetic programming enables you to successfully bulk on a keto and keep fat gain to a minimum. This could be through having phenomenal genetics, which you'd be able to bulk on a high carb low fat diet then too. It's also possible for your genetics to prefer fat metabilism and actually utilize them better. If you qualify as either, that would make you a special snowflake and not nearly as many of us are actually special snowflakes as they may believe.
To consume a huge caloric surplus that is predominately composed of dietary fat poses numerous health issues too. It's bad enough when people run a caloric deficit that predominately fat. Your lipid panel will.probably go to shit, your chances of throwing you pH can be a potential risk which leads to a plethora of issues, you increase your chances of CVD, and increase your chances of developing type 2 diabetes. Yes, you read that last part right. Based on some of the research I've been reading, there's a very good chance that a high fat intake can cause a shift in proper nutrient metabolism that then leads to a problem of carbohydrate metabilism.
Caloric surplus does not affect keto.The Atkins diet is a perfect example.It works by keeping you in keto.It also has no caloric restrictions as long as you consume no carbs.It can also be very type two friendly as long as the fats are kept relatively low.Of course this can be a problem when eating steaks bacon and cheese for every meal.South beach is another keto diet that was actually developed from Atkins and improved on some of Atkins short comings.It did this by adding super low glycemic carbs like asparagus and kale to every meal.It also did regulated caloric intake.It is a much better approach.Both diets work by the suppression of insulin.Great for losing fat but not so much for gaining muscle.The modern way is to have it both ways.By keeping meals small and incorporating intermittent fasting one can reach keto very fast.They will stay in ketosis for short periods ,say for cardio and the take carbs only after lifting to get an insulin response.Nutrient timing is what this is called.Some take it further and do a keto for a few days and then do a re feed where they carb up.This can be effective on a Bulk but probably not the best method.Bodybuilding is personal and something’s work for some but not for others.Insulin makes me fat so I stick to the south beach most of the time.
Can you elaborate on what you mean by "a caloric surplus doesn't affect keto"?
I mean you can eat more calories than you burn,and still be in ketosis.There is a tipping point where glycogenisis will start,but if you don’t get the carbs you can stay in ketosis.Its exactly how the Atkins diet works.
BOOM. +
Also, in ketosis, you can still lose stored bodyfat / get leaner and be in a caloric surplus.
That what I was trying to say though I mixed up glucogenesis with glycogenesis.Nice to see you on here it seems it’s been a bit!Ibhad directed the OP to contact you because I know you have some experience with keto for bulk,cut,and recomp.
Hope you are well fella, ah I am alwaysnfloating about, jist a bit busy with work and kids at the moment!
You know what you are talking about fella, you've set him straight.
Ahh ...I don’t get to banter as much as I like either but have been able to get on lately.I will be PM ing you in a while about some ideas on another topic.It will be a few still getting the gear in order but want to experiment and document my next cycle.Ill be in touch.
I disagree. Too.much protein in a short period time will initiate gluconeogenesis and therefore pull you out of ketosis. The glycerol backbone of dietary fat can be used as a substrate that can enter NEO, not likely but it's possible. Many people who follow a keto diet for weight loss actually achieve the true state of ketosis and maintain it for an extended period of time.
You shouldnt disagree.
It is a blanket statement you make and you do not take into account a given body's overall adapted metabolic state.
Once fully adapted to fat , all of the black and white little rules about ketosis go out the window.
Do you have any literature or research that backs up your position?
You do understand that protein can convert to carbohydrates... thus Atkin's diet can push one out of ketosis if too much protein is consumed; and thus one is no longer using ketone bodies for energy.
Atkin's does not = Keto... there are differences; the main one being Protein vs. Fat as primary macro consumed
See above post again.Glycogenesis is the word for that.Thats when you make glucose from protein.
Glycogenesis = the formation of glycogen from glucose...
not to be confused with...
Gluconeogenesis = excess amino acids converted to produce glucose
I stand corrected and agree about too much protein,however if the protein is a slow feed like beef or chicken it is unlikely to pull you out ketosis.Whey can pull you out quickly.
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Contact giardap.He uses it for bulking and can give you some very good tips.
Personally using the carbs to stimulate insulin response is the best bulking technique.Keep meals small or risk add fat as well.
That's funny you mention his name. I already sent him a friend request the other day
You will be glad you did.He will help you think outside the box.He is also a research beast and always gives references as to where he finds his information.
Here's an excerpt from the link, may help you. From Dr. Mike Israetel. I posted the full link at the bottom
“THE CASE FOR HIGH-CARB MASSING!
Broderick L. Chavez and I sum up the tradeoffs between different macro ratios to give you our views of why we think high carb, lower fat dieting might have the slight edge for muscle gains.
"There are six clear downsides to gaining weight on the LCHF (low carb, high fat) approach:
1.) Low carb is hard on hyper
While in theory, those that WANT to gain weight on low carbs and high fats CAN, they don’t seem as likely to do so. In fact, if you feed most people a ketogenic (super low carb) diet and don’t restrict their calories, they actually end up eating LESS than maintenance! It takes serious willpower to smash that much low-carb food, so while gaining weight on low fats might be harder still, low-carb gaining is much, much harder than the “surplus fats” gaining of a mixed diet.
2.) Healthy fats vs. weight gain
In more than few studies, some kinds of healthy fats seem to be so satiating that they actually reduce the chances of weight gain. Almonds, for example, have been shown to NOT promote weight gain even when eaten freely. How come? Because how many raw almonds are you really gonna eat? Not many. And how much do they squash hunger? Seemingly in some situations, an amount proportional to the calories they bring in. So if you’re especially going to try to gain weight with mostly healthy fat consumption, you’ve got your work cut out for you.
Further reading: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12074256
3.) Fat storage made simple
What do eaten fats need to be converted into before they are stored in fat cells if the conditions are right? Nothing… they come prepackaged as fats already and store very easily! Storing carbs and especially proteins as fats on the other hand requires quite a bit of biochemical conversion that is both a bit energy-taxing and just plain old less likely. Does this mean you gain no fat if your surplus is all carbs or all protein? No, but it does mean you gain a bit less. Which of course means that if your surplus is all fats… you gain fat at the highest possible rates per calorie ingested."
https://renaissanceperiodization.com/case-high-carb-massing/
Dr Mike has never seen me eat almonds
Hahahaha touché- I’m sure you still understand what he’s refrencing though homie
The main benefit of keto, if you can call it that, is the building up of ketones which act as an appetite suppressant.
Um… and you want to use it to bulk?
Carbs are going to be your best friend on a bulk. I hate keto, and I think it’s a straight up fad diet, but to each his own.
You know how I know its a fad diet... My wife is doing it right now lol she's a get rich quick believer kind of person I'm a realist
I have met people who have done it and they’re mostly overweight women (not implying anything about your wife, just my experience!). Keto is effective for a boxer trying to make weight for a fight. Not so great for your average cardio bunny. It’s a quick way to lose water weight, but there are much better ways to burn fat—in the fires stoked with carbs, dammit!
But I digress. These women, they all, every one of them, made the exact same colossal mistake: Pinterest.
Yes, Pinterest! Looking up decadent keto recipes, usually involving bacon lol. There’s the error. By actively seeking hypersavory foods they’re missing out on the driving force of how a ketogenic diet can successfully burn fat. That is, by taking advantage of the appetite suppressing ketones while eating bland foods in progressively lesser amounts by nature of their blandness. Steak, eggs, and water. That’s basically the holy trinity of keto right there. It gets old, quick. That’s the point.
Bacon doesn’t get old. Bacon is goddamned delicious. Bacon = failed ketogenic diet. Every. Single. Time.
Sorry, ladies.
I totally agree bro. My wife isn't fat lol just one of those women that goes along with the fad like that jewelry crap that was popular a few months ago Stella dot or some shit if one woman wants it the next 10 will as well. but for a bulk I don't see keto good at all
One of my friends is a ifbb pro. He just started a keto bulk this past winter. He said it produce lean gains for him. I highly doubt he was doing a full keto diet because a traditional keto diet is moderate protein and he's like 220 at 9% off season. If I was gonna do it I would only add to my caloric Maintence plus 500 cals protein for a week or two and see. Update pics weekly with no carb load the night before (sometimes people use the keto powder to have a cheat night), PD "no homo" , fasted.
basskiller89Is there a reason you want to bulk on a ketogenic diet or is this more curiosity?
Yeah I have some insulin resistance issues and there are some great health benefits to keto that I think would benefit counteracting the negative effects of being on gear like improved lipids, lower BP, and improved insulin sensitivity. I am looking to try the cyclical keto diet, where I carb up every week or so depending on my energy levels in the gym. People argue that's not a true keto diet, but I'll be monitoring my ketone levels to see if I'm in ketosis or not. I have a friend and watched his progress through two cycles and he made great gains while staying lean. He said he felt great all throughout the cycle with no acne (which he usually got). I too have acne issues while on gear, so that is also a huge motivator.
I would look into the concept of cyclic bulking if you think your insulin sensitivity has gone to shit. If this doesn't fix your insulin sensitivity then you have bigger issues that need to be addressed by a doc.
https://www.eroids.com/forum/general/general-talk/the-key-to-quality-mas...
Damn good stuff. I will definitely implement that in the future.
basskiller89I'm curious how it turns out for you
Keep us posted
As an active, healthy individual, you really shouldn’t have insulin resistance issues unless it’s genetic or unless you took something you shouldn’t have. Have you tried eating low glycemic carbs as your main source?
Yeah my dad has diabetes. I do mainly eat brown rice, sweet potatoes, and quinoa for my carb sources. I'll admit I only recently started to track my macros and have been feeling better.
Okay, in that case, watching the GI of your foods is a good idea. It’s hard to differentiate diabetes caused by lifestyle from diabetes caused by hereditary factors.
Bulking on keto for me.would be impossible I hate veggies keto claims you can eat a ton of stuff but 20 to 30g carbs fuck give me a break Greek yogurt has like 20 in it alone. I'll be watching this post though I'm interested in what people have to say
Like 9 g in a cup
My wife buys the honey kind but still one cup leaves you with like no carbs my fat ass loves carbs
Want to change the way you look at geeek yogurt? Plain, nonfat Oikos, 1 cup/225 grams. Topped with 1 tablespoon cold pressed extra virgin olive oil, preferably Greek. Garnish with fresh chives and stir to creamy perfection.
Basically homemade labneh. Easiest ethnic dish ever and so, so savory that you’ll forget all about the lack of carbs
Dam bro you ever been on the show called chopped
I’ve made up some other pretty good recipes. Really simple but tasty things that are cheap and easy.
Turns out Greek yogurt is also quite acidic. Acidic enough to strip uncooked oats of their anti-nutrients and phytates and leave the nutrients inside intact without cooking the oats. Overnight oats and organic chia soaked with Greek yogurt and topped with blueberries, walnuts, honey, and cinnamon, anyone? Served with hot coffee?! Talk about a nutritional powerhouse. Yum!
Haha I'm in the middle of a fast right now and you're killing me with these delicious sounding recipes.
Dam i always have blueberries on hand lol I'll have to make this tomorrow morning my wife would love it to she will have it with coffee and mine with hot cider thanks bro
Keep the Greek yogurt in ratio to the oats, like 1/2 cup of each. Put some water to thin it out to texture, like 3/4 cup water is perfect for 1/2 cup oats and 1/2 cup yogurt. Overnight in fridge and ready to go.