+ 3 Nolvadex only unless ai needed
Stats 35yr
202lbs
15-16% bf
Cycle experience is
All ester Testosterone except undecanoate
Npp my favorite
Decca
Primo
Tbol
Adrol
Dbol my other favorite
So awhile back i asked a question about why don't we just use letrozole for an ai rather than spending a ton of money on good pharma grade aromasin or Arimidex.
Letrozole is cheaper and is stronger.
The answer was from multiple members that it would be a bad move because I would crash my estro. I since have spoken with guys that use letrozole as there ai. They say that it works fine and that letrozole isn't really as strong as it says on paper. They do say that you need to respect it because it can definitely crash your estro levels if you don't know how to use it just like any other aromatase inhibitor.
From this question I got the answer that you have to use an ai to keep your estro levels low. Why though when we all know that estrogen has alot to do with the gains we make on cycle. I agree that estrogen levels being way to high are bad for your health and can cause bad side effects.
I've thought about trying this cycle out
1-8 test pp 300mgs split 3x mwf
1-8 npp 300mgs split 3x mwf
1-8 mast prop 300mgs split 3x mwf
1-8 anavar 50mgs split ed
Aromasin if needed
Caber if needed
Looking into this cycle I have come across vets and very serious users saying that it would be 100% possible to just run Nolvadex at 20mg a day split maybe 40mg split i haven't researched deep enough yet. This post is part of my research. I also like that Nolvadex helps with natty test production.
I feel that the mast will help keep the estrogen sides in check. I do know i will need to run bloods and make sure i keep my estrogen levels around 60-70 max.
If I need to I can blast the aromasin because its a suicidal ai so it will drop estrogen levels fast and they won't rebound immediately.
So saying all that if I went 8wks with those compounds and ran Nolvadex from day one and only if I feel problems or see an issue with my blood work add in an ai.
I believe that just taking Nolvadex and letting my estro run high will allow me to achieve better gains.
I would like to discuss more about this with anyone willing to give feedback on this idea.
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I just jumped back on and never personally took nolv always arimadex but this time I also heard the same which I'm going to see now because I am very prone to gyno etc...last time I ran only about 5 weeks without AI my blood work came back gyno through the roof and estro through the roof...just wanted to join the feed because I'm curious myself
Nolvadex interferes with same receptors as 19nors.
I said interferes because it doesnt bind to them but it aggravates them- gives them a tickle if you like.
Nolvadex is also recognised by the male body as actual estrogen in the very early stages of usage- 7-10 days usually.
With both of those factors at play along with the famous pgr/ prl debate with nandros people tend to avoid.
Im all for estrogen being higher on cycles- higher than what you listed but it comes down to experience and knowing your bodies threshold before sides begin and gains negate.
I love test only cycles with just nolvadex ran throughout.
I dont recommend it with nors.
Your cycle listed i would literally have aromasin and caber on hand.
Test is low at 300- mast will counter that. Npp aromatise i think is 18 percent off top of head so again mast would counter it.
The key to your listed cycle is pinning consistency- skip a pin and suffer, stick to same time and dose as scheduled you will suceed.
Why risk it with a trial of nolva? When you can have aromasin on hand and use it when/ if needed- same with caber.
As for letro look at it like arimidexs older stronger brother- it is feared but its also misused- it takes 60 days to be at max stable plasma levels, it cops a bad name bcoz ppl pop it like skittles if they get a pimple or itchy nipple, used correctly at correct dosing for drug protocol/ cycle its fine.
Natty production? Thats what pct is for.
Good luck
You've done an excellent job explaining bro, but I still can't understand one thing. If you use an inhibitor & correctly maintain e2 levels, wouldn't that keep gyno away? What is the actual benefit of not using an inhibitor & using the SERM? Please over look my own confusion lol
Thanks my friend
To start off i read that about letrozole taking 60 days to build up in the body but I kinda disregarded it because the src where I read it i thought that it could be bs but it is true thats interesting. Where i read it basically stated that if you were going to use it to start it when you start your cycle because of it taking 60 days to build up. I thought that was strange but I guess it would be true definitely doesn't seem like an ai that would be right for me.
So just like you were saying that the mast is basically going to control the estrogen for me. Im not prone so if this were to be the next cycle I would probably not even need the nolvadex on cycle. I always have aromasin its my goto and because of my misunderstanding of how to use caber early on I've got a ton of it.
Just curious what would be your threshold for how high you would run your estro i know everyone is different mine is around 60-70 and I can be comfortable i am prone to acne so I just deal with it.
My pinning schedule and my protocol for being sanitary are borderline ocd.
I pin same time of day mwf on this type of schedule even with my long esters its always same time of day just different days.
Im actually on the low test train i guess you could say. I ran at 750mgs last cycle and I believe that it was to much. I think that 500 is fine for me and I would even like to run it lower. Thats why the low test on this one and most likely most in the future. My sides from nor19 haven't been bad I believe that my body reacts really well to Nandrolone I've never ran tren. The mast I've tasted but never went a whole cycle. This got based off of the andro mix blend that alot of srcs make now minus the tren switched out for npp.
Flash I always appreciate the feedback brother thanks for chiming in.
Just remember, tamox will only bind to certain areas and block estrogen from binding- it wont control or lower it.
In the test only cycles it stops any gyno flares.
With the 19nors it can infact, in some users cause or further aggravate gyno by interfering with receptors near mammary glands that progestins also mess with, then you will be in drama.
Letro- 60 days to reach MAX plasma levels- think of bourbon- 3 shots your feeling it ( tipsy) but your not drunk- 3 more your body is intoxicated by it and its at its peak.
That study you read is for patients using it for therapy due to a condition that requires it, its still the same with steroid users yet we only need to use amounts that we need in a cycle/ situation, ive used it at 5mg a day on massive bulkers for 4 weeks at a time, its the most powerful ancillarie we have when it comes to estrogen and yes it does crush peoples estro down to zero if not adjusted according to drugs used and dosing- you wouldnt bother with letro on a cycle of 1000mg total oils per week, even if that was test only.
When i was running 5mgs a day i was using up to 1800mgs of test, up to 1000mgs of eq, up to 900mgs of deca plus pulsing anadrol at up to 200mgs a day- big cycles with multiple compounds is where letro shines, it does its job.
It is also used in nolva/ letro gyno lump blast at varying doses daily for certain amounts of time and out of the dozen or so guys who have ran it, destroyed gyno they have recovered quickly without much drama or too much whinging, there is about half dozen guys at the present doing it for gyno and no bad feedback as of yet.
Re-bound - letro and adex rebound, tricky for some but can be counteracted, aromasin is best option due to no rebound- aro is strong and crashes estro also but it is just easier overall to deal with and dose without hassle.
Nandrolone/ deca- the more you use it the worse it gets- first handful of times alot of guys go smooth, they usually graduate up to tren then end up back down to deca, then dramas start to occur- the body suffers bad every time, never fully recovers to the way it was before nandros and start getting acne, limp dick, shut down lethargy and so on, ive been through this process not to long ago and seen it personally and across the boards, its harder recovery each and every time and multiple runs usually end in trt, im glad you opted for your dosing, 300 of each is perfect, tren would typically be where npp is but thats fine, you will bulk up whilst being hard/ vascular and grainy at the same time- you will put on more weight than with tren.
I used to chuck mast prop at the end of test/ deca/ drol cycles and it was always a nice sculpting/ polishing finish so i know it works.
If you are pct at the end go atleast 6 weeks nolva/ clomid- 4 wont cut it.
Recovery even at 300 is a bitch i would run the test and the mast a week or two longer than npp.
Good luck.
10mgs nolva is all thats needed, thats the way to go, that with 50-100mgs of provi ed. None of the real serious guys or the pros I know use ais. the 10mg nolva ed protocol I got from a pro. And no using nolva with a 19-nor wont cause prolactin problems. Some bros read this study showing that nolvadex did did something like upregulate prolactin receptors in the uterus in women, but we dont have a uterus, and drugs can activate receptors in one area while not doing anything to receptors in another area. I, and ive had many others use the exact protocol (10mgs nolva with provi) and never had an issue. And people talking about nolva decreasing igf-1, arimidex and letro do the same exact thing, wont reduce it all that much though. Aromasin is the only ai that doesnt effect igf-1 levels. Some people cant do this though, some just aromatize to heavily and need an ai. For example I had a friend I was helping, we were both using the same provi, he was on 500mgs of test I was on 750, his estro was like 150, mine was 60 or so. So I advised him to add some adex. Ais arent bad, its just most people use to much and estrogen is very anabolic both directly and indirectly. Keeping it at 30 (in range) isnt close to optimal for bulking. Cutting sure if youre lean and wanna look dry and hard. But even at the beginning of a cut when im not that lean ill go light on the AI so I can potenitally add some size while cutting, but once I get to a certain bf ill up it so i dry out and just worry about holding the size I have. It really just depends on how heavily you aromatize, but with mast and provi thats your ai right there. id just use nolva if you start feeling anything with your nipples. It works incredibly fast. But ya I find 50-70 to be optimal for bulking. And again you might have no other symptoms but if bp rises then youll have to drop your estro with an ai or something to correct that.
And ive used letro before as an ai, it can be done pretty easily, you just have to figure out the correct dose just like with adex and aromasin. for me it was something like .625mgs twice a week (quarter pill). Definitely cheaper, but I get adex pretty damn cheap so if im running something that heavily aromatizes like dbol ill use that.
I like the look of this without the nolv and an as needed approach to the Ai. The mast will help conttol the estro so you should get away without hsving to use too much ai. It will also g8ve a nice balance between dht and dhb, and the low test should allow the NPP to really do the biz without too much aromatase action
Nice synergies
I know some guys who use huge huge dose and keep their estro in check with like 500mgs mast and 100mgs provi. I stick with just provi most the time. Only time I use an ai is on dbol and even then I can get away without it. I definitely grow much better without using an ai. I see people using 50mgs of aromasin ed on 500mgs of test or 1mg Adex eod and it just makes me scratch my head. I'd need to be on like multiple grams of test to ever come close to needing that much ai. Then they wonder why they don't grow and think the answer is higher doses of gear.
Yeah man, there's post after post after post where people crash themselves to the gutter, with absolutely no need for it at all. Ass before cart approach
Of course it's all one way pr the other, extra prudent or extra dumb! There is a whole team of Gen-Y'ers in my gym applauding one another when they reach the 5 week in stage where its all estrogen water and fat, thinking they are massive lol
I just dont get why people dont really strive to figure out what their bodies actually need
That's why I like the approach to this cycle here, logical synergies, modest and intelligent approach
When you're on cycle, your natural test is shut down and will stay shut down as long as you're on test. That's way Nolva is used during pct.
Get responses below! Sounds like you're on your way.
Im still looking into it but I read that running Nolvadex during cycle will help keep production of natty trst going especially with low doses might be complete bs.
Im definitely trying to figure it out though.
Im leaning more towards just using aromasin if needed.
I still have almost 2 months before I would start this so by then I hope I have my facts straight
Thanks brother
idk about nolva but Ive read that clomid can help a bit, not sure if it will keep natty test going but it can work like hcg and keep the balls full and prevent the hpta from lying totally dormant.
I begin using 50 mg of proviron ed while running 500mg test and that really has kept my estro in check. Once or twice Ive woken up and had extra sensitive nipples but small of nolva helps. I try to stay slightly oily and very horny and the provi really is helping keep me there.
We're all different. What works for me may do shit for another guy. I think understanding what each compound does and listening to your body are 2 very important things we need to do. Follow those up with bloodwork and we're good.
As long as we understand what and why we are taking something and it works for them, unless it blatantly is a bad idea and will result in harm...do what is right for yourself.
RustyhookerSlightly oilly and horney.... bingo.
RustyhookerNolva will erase your igf1 levels which is exactly what we do not want to happen.
Estro too low or crashed. That's just one reason men die at a younger age than women. Naturally our test levels tank as we age which leads to less estro conversion naturally and one result is hardening of arteries. Estro keep veins/arteries soft and pliant if my word choice is correct. Basically, estro does more that just muscle gain/loss. Estro helps us add mass during a bulker, within reason. Water load alone can be anabolic. More nutrient retention intracellular. Think of how we feel on cutter when carbs are low/cycled. Or think about tren and how the recipe was changed in cattle ranching to not tear off the bulk via marbelling.
I've not run npp even with test yet but at least you can modify as needed. Bloods will verify your decisions.
Letro, are you prone to gyno or high estro issues? Pharma ai should be plenty. If bulking, estro more towards 50 would be a goal unless sensitivity issues.
I've not yet seen proof anywhere that masteron frees up test via SBH. Mast and provi are chemically 2 different chems and will act different in our body.
The igf1 levels going down i have not read about that yet but I will check into it
I remember viking talking about not using an ai but just using mast to control estro.
I don't believe that im gyno prone because I have run alot of dbol and never had an issue.
I as always appreciate the feedback rusty
Now im thinking that I should drop the nolvadex throughout the cycle and just use aromasin as needed.
Do you think its over kill to run mast and Proviron together?
+1
Research igf1 peptide too... I've seen mast/provi combos in cycle plans mentioned on here...
8 weeks at those doses shouldn't be bad without nolva...any higher or longer and then maybe consider, but you're not gyneco prone, so monitor and initiate low dose 10mg if needed, less frequently...as an option.
Im still going to look more into it but maybe even do 25mg of Proviron instead of my normal 50mg and scrap the nolva plan stick with aromasin which at those doses I don't believe I will need but of course bloods will have to determine that.
Thanks for the feedback brother
Bloods, def....provi dose is still adequate. I got good results on 25 eod for 9 mos...more denser muscle and solid look, plus good ester and a:a ratio to work with, too high libido, imo, but we'll worth it!
With what im reading im going to edit up top and add 25mg a day Proviron to the cycle I wanted to run it but I thought it was to much dht with the advice from you and others looks like its g2g in the cycle
+1
Holy shit! Awesome info man!
Seth ferroce pushes nolva only unless problems with estro occur. Never tried it though. Everyone is different as it's repeated over and over again. Good looking cycle though. Npp and mast are my favorites other than the mast and hair loss Fook! Good luck man keep us posted.
Ferroce also runs growth with his cycles though, not sure if that would outweigh the igf drop or not just thought it may be a factor.
Excellent point man!
In theory it definitely should balance out his igf levels if he is running gh
Interesting point
After reading what rusty posted im going to look into some of the things that he pointed out. Im still going to run the same compounds just possibly through my research drop the nolvadex idea.
I would then just use aromasin as needed
I will definitely be posting more about this as I really dig into the research
Rustyhookerhttps://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF01833337
Heres a start. There's tons of reading out there
Might even lower igf which raises sbh... hmm
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0306987797900980
Thanks for the links I love knowledge
RustyhookerIt opens up pandoras box too at times. Lol. So much info you have to wade thru it.
Good luck bro.
You know i always start early with my research for that exact reason so much out there and 25% is true lol
RustyhookerThats why you'll be successful. You do the hard work before fun time starts.
It's a good cycle except I'd replace the mast with provi less to pin and I like provi ... 10 mg of nolvadex a day is plenty if it's good I've ran nolvadex all cycle before it's good stuff and .25 mg adex twice a week because running estro a little high is good but you want more free test and not having your test converted into estrogen.
I never run much AI but then again I don't run high doses either.
Also letro is as strong as they say
So the reason for the mast prop is because I have a couple of vials so I want to use it and try to get harder definition. I run provi with all my cycles. I wasn't going to add it to this one with the mast already there. I don't want to much dht in the cycle and the mast will help free Testosterone and give me less aromatase.
Letrozole I've been reading that you need to run it for 60 days before it will be strong enough. I read this online so could be complete bro science
Running Mast right now for my first time and it's definitely becoming a favorite already.
I really think that mast and npp will definitely give me exactly what im looking for as long as I hit my diet correctly.