+ 2 19 nors, prolactin, progesterone, thyroid and what is actually happening?
Ok so I thought I had a good base on all of this, but it seems the more research I do the more I get confused...
I'd appreciate it if some knowledgable guys could discuss this and help clear everything up. I apologize for the lack of references, but this info has been obtained from 10+ sources at this point and I feel like it would be more confusing than helpful if I could even reproduce where all this came from.
Ok so tren and nandrolone are said to be progestins and commonly known to increase prolactin, which is why we have problems and need to use caber or prami etc to combat this. Traditionally I've always heard deca binds 20% of the affinity of progesterone and tren binds about 50-60% and progesterone increases prolactin which is why you need a DA to combat this. However, looking all this up progesterone actually blocks prolactin's effects on the breast tissue? And I couldn't find anything telling me the mechanism through which progesterone would increase prolactin. There were plenty of studies showing that estrogen increased prolactin but not progesterone? Does anyone know the mechanism this is said to occur by?
Meanwhile Bill Roberts has repeatedly said trenbolone has "near zero" progestational activity anyway and isn't a progestin at all. It has AFFINITY for the progesterone receptor but doesn't ACTIVATE it?
One interesting theory that I did come across in regards to why people are getting prolactin sides from it was mainly due to the drop in thyroid hormones which has been shown from 19 nors. This would cause an increase in TRH to stimulate TSH to stimulate production of T3 and T4. TRH has been shown to cause a rise in prolactin in humans, but not animals like sheep that Bill Roberts cites in his references since their prolactin and TRH pathways are independent of each other. After some more reading on this I found guys that swear they control their gyno symptoms from tren and deca using t3 alone??
I also found a theory that tren may cause a lowering of endogenous progesterone and that many of its side effects also correlated with low progesterone? Including mood swings, night sweats, poor sleep, acid reflux, low libido, and other things that sounded suspiciously like tren sides. This some broscience garbage?
And what about nandrolone? I've found posts citing articles that claim nandrolone's ability to increase prolactin is no greater than testosterone's?? That all of its sexual problems come from DHN not prolactin? But I and several others I've seen run low test high deca and I'm not having any ED problems whatsoever, in fact the opposite is true? Yet an AI alone didn't control the side effects I got from nandrolone or tren but when I used caber everything became ok? Is it all from the thyroid disruption?
Sorry for the rambling but I'm trying to make sense out of all of this. Feel free to give me all the feedback you've got and discuss away
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RustyhookerI'd rater run the caber and control estro as/if needed. In the medical world caber is used clinically at massive doses compared to our measles .25e3d. There's DA regimens listed at 2.0e3d.
The argument of b6 over caber is imo rediculous. Yes...yes the high b6 has been shown to help out women during nursing. But on boards they post 600 mg per day. That level causes permanent nerve damage. Proofs can be found on mayo clinic and other websites.
"AFFINITY for the progesterone receptor but doesn't ACTIVATE it?"
http://suppversity.blogspot.com/2011/08/beyond-vidas-book-part-12-androg...
^That link has some good info on transcription activation and affinity on 19nors. Also from what Ive read, 19nors seem to inhibit 5 alpha reductase which naturally combats estrogenic sides.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-EZPBo-MiUFk/TlJlBB_QZ9I/AAAAAAAAB4I/HZhW8EyC7n...
excess progesterone is converted into estrogen ... a doctor will prescribe larger amounts of progesterone knowing that some of it will be converted into estrogen.
Well that's interesting for sure but since deca/tren are just agonists are you saying the bodies own progesterone would be converted since it senses the influx of progestins?
I am saying that when I run deca and my prolactin levels are elevated I have symptoms of excessive estrogen ... I know that excess progesterone is converted to estrogen... what the mechanism is isn't within my ability to answer because I can't go to the doctors and find out for sure why ... but I can tell you it doesn't happen with any other compound that I have run
Med schools don't teach you anything worthwhile about any of this anyway so I wouldn't trust my GPs opinion. Maybe an endocrinology fellowship would but I know for a fact med schools don't lol. But that's given me another angle to think about and research on thank you
The theory of 19 nors lowering thyroid hormones is true from my experience. I think 19 nors increase the work compacity of the thyroid because of the 19 nors known fact that it vamps up nutrition partitioning a lot which stresses the thyroid because of the increase work of metabolizing everything.
Tren use to kick my ass about week 4 and beyond but ever since I started adding in meformin to keep blood sugar down and help with nutrition partitioning during tren cycles I don't get a single tren side and sleep like a baby.
My theory on why this works is by taking metformin it allieviates the thyroid of its nutrition partitioning responsibilities so therefore your thyroid isn't kicked into hyperdrive and you don't get all those thyroid sides, yes it's all thyroid sides, not realitively 19 nor sides. All just IMHO from experience.
Bro, sorry but this again? I think this community is all talked out on this subject that keeps popping up again and again and again and again. And, again. Search the eroids archives. Their should be volumes of talk.
Bottom line is we don't know why 19-nors drive up prolactin. They are not supposed to do that in theory. But, for me, they do confirmed by blood work. What is supposed to happen is irrelevant to me. Therefore, I use a DA.
There really is nothing more to discuss on this. If you run 19-nor based compounds and your prolactin does not elevate - great for you. Just get a blood test and you will know how your body reacts. See if Tren crashes your T3. Act accordingly.
If the community wants to debate this again, great. I'm out. LOL This thread has the potential to run out 40 or 50 pages of back and forth banter leading nowhere. I just hope that the only people who post in here are those that have personally run 19-nor compounds. Book smart scientists that have never tried the stuff should stay away from this "discussion."
This thread could literally stay alive for over a month as passions heat up about whether these compounds are progestins or not or whatever . . .
Sorry I suppose that discussion was before I got here and didn't come up in my searches. So no good conclusions or anything?? I'm the type that really likes to know the why behind everything and just having to say it may be this or that doesn't sit right with me at all. My thyroid does get wrecked from deca and tren though which got me researching and I wanted some smarter heads to help out on this and set it all straight. If there's no answer then that really sucks to say the least
No bro, there isn't a definitive answer on this one unfortunately. In many men (not all) 19-nor compounds will elevate prolactin to a level where lactation starts and you will get this milky brown junk oozing from your nips.
By the time that starts you have set the stage for what I call prolactin based gyno that in many cases cannot be managed by anything short of surgery. So, either run a DA from the start or don't but if no, get a blood test to see where your prolactin is before it becomes a problem.
Then there is the theory that in the absence of E2, prolactin cannot rise so all you need to do is keep E2 down and you don't need a DA like caber. But again, seems true for some but not all.
Then your T3 may or may not crash when running these compounds. Again in some, but not all.
So, we get into this murky discussion of everybody's personal experience which is not helpful because if varies too much to be conclusive.
In the end, we don't really understand what is going on and everyone who runs 19-nors needs to check blood levels to see how their body reacts. No cookie cutter answers on this one.
So it's sort of a discussion where everyone shares their experience which is all different and everyone gets passionate about how deca and tren and MENT and such compounds affect them and folk really have trouble believing that their personal experience cannot be carried to a general recommendation.
Then this "discussion" gets everyone fired up about who is right and wrong and people start dragging out all manner of scholarly reference articles to quote from to justify their position and when all is said and done you end up learning nearly nothing.
If you go onto the general internet to look into this, you can find enough material to keep you reading for days but you will not be able to tell me what I must and must not do.
Beautiful!! Great post
Here's a pretty good article on the subject. http://www.steroidal.com/progesterone-prolactin-clearing-confusion/
What I gleaned from it in the end is that we really don't completely know the answer. There haven't been enough in depth studies on what's exactly causing what to convert.
Something else to keep in mind, t3 wouldn't be a foolproof means to block prolactin. The prostate secretes a certain level as well, so it's not all pituitary. I'll be watching this thread hoping to learn more myself.
Lol yep that article was essentially a long way of saying we don't know. Some good info in it all in one place though so I appreciate it
Ya. +2
Very thought provoking and I am curious myself.
X2
I would love to not use caber but using t3 makes me uncomfortable as well