+ 14 The perefect TRT therapy!
For those on TRT and those looking into it. Please review this website and print out the information so you can take it to your doctor to speak candidly with them. You want to find a doctor that is up on the cutting edge treatments and are willing to try new things.
The best form of TRT is a dose that keeps you with in the normal range but also doesn't have your ridding a hormonal roller coaster. The worst form of TRT is the old age 200mgs injection of test cyp every 2 weeks. You get a super spike of test and the. Slowly decline over the next 2 weeks until you spike yourself with another mega dose.
You can always split your dose yourself and take 100mgs/week. Or better yet take about 50mgs every 3 days.
Review this website and take the information to your doctor as this can be the difference between feeling ok and feeling fantastic.
http://www.mens-hormonal-health.com/testosterone-replacement.html
Goal:
Testosterone Treatment Dosages for Men
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50mg Testosterone enanthate/cypionate every third day.
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0.25mg Arimidex every third day.
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500IU HCG every third day.
Ideal Hormone and T Levels for Optimal Health
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Total Testosterone 800 - 1,000 ng/dl
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Free Testosterone 250 - 300 pg/ml
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Estradiol 20 - 30 pg/ml
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SHBG 10 - 30 nmol/l
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DHT 60 - 70 ng/dl
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Prolactin 2 - 3 ng/ml
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DHEA-S ~ 300 ug/dl
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AnonVery interesting. Logically it makes perfect sense to me, dropping for a month with heavy HCG whilst under supervision that is.
To me it seems like ( from an outside perspective mind you ) many endos are still operating decade(s) in the past as are arguably specialists in other fields I won't mention here…. I think treatment regimens more along the lines of what you have described here will become more and more common in coming years - I hope anyways.
How the hell docs can even logically consider twice a month injections being sufficient… I don't know. I guess they'd have to have used gear or be on TRT themselves to understand. Maybe it's just my body, but I still feel a dip in sex drive when injecting test E only once a week. It's not too bad, but I certainly only feel truly 100% stable with 2x weekly injects on TRT doses as opposed to 1x weekly.
Then again I'm running UGL test E for cruising, and not pharma cyp. Adex does a fantastic job of crashing your estrogen into oblivion too, so good I only use micro doses ( 0.15mg twice weekly ) now. Again, UGL adex who knows what the actual dose I'm using is.
I'd like to be under the supervision of a good endo but that costs money I don't have, I'm doing my best over here lol.
Biologic1Yes, male hormone replacement is still foreign to many docs. Compare that field to female replacement and you can see that are our needs lag far behind.As a general rule, I am against self medication, but not when it comes to trt.
Low testosterone presents a number of adverse health problems. Dementia, impotence, excess fatigue Alzheimers, loss of bone density. Ever see an old man severely hunched over? Low test.
If you are on trt, ultimately, you will only see your doc every 6 months. It is worth traveling. He/she will run your labs, which is what you really need. You need to learn how to read them, or find someone who can interpret them for you. I provide that service to everyone who runs my gear, most of them are competitive athletes. Right now I have 2 guys prepping for physique, one gal doing bikini (although she may end up doing figure) one regional level BB, and one IFBB pro. My pro is pretty healthy, except for his Hematocrit. He is only on moderate test right now, but will be on 3 grams of gear/week soon, and wants to run EQ as part of his stack. Reading his labs tells us he needs to get his Hem down, and donating blood (before he is on his pre-contest stack) does that. This ^ is an example of why labs are important.
Find someone like me who is local to you. They obviously won't advertise in the yellow pages, but they are out there. Make friends with the biggest guys at the gym. Get your regular doc to order your labs. Be honest with him. My FP (Fam. practitioner) does not prescribe trt, but he will order labs to protect my health.
Hi Biologic1,
My Dr. will not increase my dose from 120 mg a week and 1,000 IU of HCG. If I decide to go higher, or do a blast do you buy non brand Test from some source and hope that it is real?
Thanks...
AnonIf your gonna blast I have a source on these boards that I work with and trust and can share some info. Just PM me if interested.
Biologic1I co-own 2 labs that make extremely high quality gear (autoclave, etc.). My insurance makes me pay $75 for a bottle of test 200, so I only use gear from my facilities.
Just to be clear, we are private. We do not have the infrastructure (just fired another shipper) to handle the business that going public on eroids would generate. It's going to take a while to find and train a new guy. The one I just trained sent a practice package to me, and he put all the wrong items in, left several out, and had loose anavar rattling around in a big box. Idiot.
Having said that, there are a number of good sources here on eroids that I would recommend. However, recommending them in this section would violate the rules. I would pm you, but never trust someone who pm's you, lol.
Immerse yourself in the source reviews here on eroids. Do your homework, and you will get quality gear.
Back to the safety issue, many many guys are safely running 200mgs. Do regular labs, and learn how to interpret the data. Monitor BP, Hematocrit, triglycerides, cholesterol and your HDL to LDL ratio to name a few.
My endo does not prescribe any adex of hcg for my trt. im currently at 80mg /w. We hae been adjusting dosages for some time now. I am trying to find my sweet spot . She has never mentioned any AIs or HCG. I do take them when blasting however. My estro levels have not been high. should I discuss testicular shrinkage so she will prescibe hcg? I wasnt aware that was part of their protocol.
AnonIt's not necessarily apart of anyone endos specific protocol. These are not easy to get either. I would suggest printing out the info and discussing the option with her. Certain doctors are more approachable then others. Sometimes you have to search for the right doctor that has your best interests in mind. As long as your healthy and feel good that's all that matters. Normal doctors don't touch this stuff you have to discuss with an Endo. Good luck man. The best level is a level that is in normal range and if it on trt you would want to be at a higher normal range not lower. 80mgs / week seems low 100 puts me at 434 at the end of the week prior to my next shot and that is low normal. I want higher so recently moved to 50mgs every 3 days myself and my dr. Will test my levels in 3 weeks.
80mg /w is my new dose. I was on biweekly pins. the last few times I have been testing ugls instead of my script test. This time will be legit. Ive stopped blasting and will get bloods on script test cyp at the 89mg/w so that i can adjust correctly. By the time I draw bloods I will be off other gear for 6 weeks. Is that enough time? I want to be as accurate as possible.
AnonSo previous to the 6 weeks what were u taking and how much.
When your taking weekly shots you want to take ur blood test at ur trough level. So if u inject 89mgs Sunday you want to get ur test level checed Saturday morning. So that is right before your next weekly shot. That will show you how low you end up going prior to your shot. My guess with legit pharmacy prescribed cyp you may be in high 300s or very low 400s. So would be normal but low. So in my opinion if ur on trt you should be putting urself mid to upper range normal. Now it's not always about numbers either. Some people feel good at certain levels and it doesn't mean their number is high. It's just an indication. So you want to go on how u feel as well. My guess is minimal ur adjustment will end up being at least 100 to a little over 100mgs once weekly. You ideally would want peak and trough levels tested. Your peak level would be about 24 hours after ur injection. That way you know that ur injection at both peak and trough values are with in normal range.
Bumping This Great thread up!!
Thank you both tuffguy & whynot for the excellent read!
AnonYour welcome thanks for the positive feedback from you all. I also enjoyed discussing with you all and especially with Whynot as well. It's nice to see things from different angles. Thanks Whynot!
This is what this board is all about. Glad we could help!!
Give them a vote if you find it helpful.PermalinkThank you for the acknowledgment and for making this post happen. I look forward to future discussions on the subject with everyone here.
Thank you for the acknowledgment.
AnonThank you tuffguy and whynot!! This is great.
Give them a vote if you find it helpful.PermalinkThank you for the acknowledgment.
Thank you Tuffguy and WhyNot for the great info. I have a question for you. My husband's doctor gave him Clomiphene 50mg three time a week instead of HCG, I was wondering if it's pretty much the same or it would be better he'd switch to HCG. I was reading below about all the other benefits of HCG on adrenal function, energy and well being in general and got me curious.
AnonI would prefer to see him on HCG. What I would do is create a list of pros and cons to discuss with his doctor. I have never seen a doctor give clomid. Not saying its wrong because I'm not a doctor but some individuals are sensitive to clomid. Can cause some vision changes amongst other things. Side effects vary among individuals.
I will suggest that and do more researches on the side effects of Clomiphene. My husband did a course of HCG a few years ago and I thought it worked better than Clomiphene. Maybe the doc thinks that's easier for the patient to pop a pill than do another injection. Thank you for your opinion Tuffguy!
For what purpose was he prescribed the medication?
He's 59 on testosterone replacement 30mg every 3 days. I guess the Clomiphene is to keep his testes working and sperm production while on TRT.
Some healthcare professionals will use Clomid for TRT.....in his case hCG is not necessary because if the therapy is working his body is producing LH and since hCG mimics LH in the body there is no need for it.
So you are saying that the two therapies are comparable? What about the concern about Clomiphene sides that Tuffguy was mentioning, what's you opinion?
Their different but achieve a similar result which is an elevated testosterone. HCG will do so by directly affecting the testes Clomid will cause the body to produce and secrete its own LH which in turn stimulates the testes.
As far as side effects and vision problems those are true concerns but they are individualistic in nature. That is something that you're probably better off discussing with your healthcare provider.
The only recommendation I could make for your husband is to keep a journal of what he does and how he feels and compare it from month-to-month.
I'm looking for my husband to feel the best that he can. He's dealing with chronic pain due to a bad hip and back and consequently his energy level is not very good. That's why I wanted to find out if HCG would be a better option for him. The journal is a good idea and I'll do a research on Clomiphene sides. I'll also tell my husband to talk to his doctor about this. Thank you WhyNot!
If you want to put up your husband's stats in another post I'll be more than happy to give you a bunch of suggestions and then you can research them and see if they make sense.
By putting up another post you'll not only get my opinions but a lot of others and the more you get the better off You will be.
AnonI second that as well. I'm also interested in seeing what his levels are at. Not that the testosterone number is the end all but it's a good starting point some people feel great at a test level of 450 while others don't feel great or have the right energy unless they are around 600. It's all about finding the sweet spot for each individual. A good doctor will also work with his patients to find that number and what that corresponding dose is that makes the patient feel the best.
I'll do that. Thank you for the idea and your help.
You're welcome.
this is good stuff!!! good read. Whynot and Tuffguy..thank you
AnonYour welcome I enjoyed it. Thanks to whynot!
Give them a vote if you find it helpful.PermalinkThank you for the acknowledgment.
Here is my two cents on this.
The testosterone dosage might be too low for some. Need to dial it in with bloodwork. They may be recommending this because of the high dosage of hCG which I do not agree with. HCG should be run at a lower dosage in my opinion. 500 IU for the week would be Max IMHO.
AnonI agree I feel doctors over dose HCG. They say a normal replicating dose would be 100ius daily but taking 250ius every 3 days is good and I've had good experiences with 500ius twice a week. Again more is not always better and every individual responds differently.
People have to understand that the best TRT dose is one that keeps you with in normal limits and makes u feel good. So each person should experiment and find their sweet spot so to speak.
I will sign off on the 100 IU daily (if you can ever convince someone of this protocol) but 250 IU every three days is probably overkill for TRT. Remember they're going to be doing this for a long time and you don't need that much of a signal to keep the testes functional.
The reason I would hold off on 250 IU ( even though the total volume is less than the 100 IU daily) is because side effects both positive and negative are always dose dependent. So when you have a smaller dose your negative effects are a lot less in general. Hope I making sense with this.
Just my two cents.
In your opinion, what would be the optimum dose/protocol for HCG with TRT.
It would be a very small amount of daily injections. 70iu to 100iu. But for most people that is impractical so I advocate the next best thing which is 150 IU three times a week.
Since you are doing biweekly injections (or at least should be) for TRT you can just dump the hCG into the same barrel. You can do hCG intramuscular ( it won't be the same as sub-q in terms of peak plasma and half-life but for the most part irrelevant to the user) so this way you would only have to do 1 sub-q a week.
It's all about designing a protocol that one can follow not always about ideals.
Bro you can inject water HCg with oil cyp for TRT in same pin????
No shit!
Yes.......but it does change the half-life and peak plasma numbers cause then your going IM
AnonNow based on my research and see that 100iu daily dose is close to normal I feel the 250iu 2 x/ week would be a better starting point. You can always adjust as needed. Based on how u feel, if u get testicular atrophy, and quantity of semen.
Hcg has a double peak in plasma levels so it could work. But like I said before side effects are typically dose-dependent and you will have more with 250 then you will with 100.
AnonThis is a good discussion!
One last comment i had forgot to mention that got me to my doses as well was personal experience. With a lower dose I noticed my testicle size suffered over time. I'm on TRT so I'm always on and noticed when I tried the lower doses they shrunk up a bit so I steadily worked up.
So this is another good example for people to understand more is not always better. Start low and work up little by little to find your sweet spot that works for U.
That is a valid point. But you do know that testicular size does not equal testicular function. Every man seems to want big balls, until they are 70 and hang by your knees.
AnonYeah that is true is more of a mind thing for most guys. Helps them cope with being on TRT. However, HGC injections do more than increase testicle size, it also increases adrenal function, which has many positive effects on well-being, libido, and energy. That's why I like it incorporates in TRT.
It's nice to see that you know this, most people aren't aware that they have LH receptors throughout the body and not just in their testicles.
+1
Lots of good points brought up here. Seems like I am missing out without HCG in my TRT protocol. I have bloodwork and Doc appointment in a couple weeks. I am going to talk about HCG with him. He hasn't said anything about HCG so far. Is HCG fairly common for them to write a script for? I guess it can't hurt to ask.
FR Sent
AnonYeah just be open and honest with your doctor. Inwouldnalso suggest printing out the information from that site I posted above and come equipped with the information so the discussion can be a good one.
I think I am going to be more prepared than him for this discussion. lol
Keep this in mind also. Healthcare professionals are people. And just like there certain people out there that don't like to be embarrassed or shown up by someone who is not supposed to know more than them, it can put the kibosh on the whole hCG thing QUICK.
A better approach is to show up with a bunch of supporting research. Tell the doctor what you think that research means and that you're not an expert in the field and that he would like his opinion on it. That in my opinion will get you a lot further than if you try to intimidate him with your knowledge.
The idea is you want to show them that you are proactive in your healthcare but are looking for their opinion.
AnonYou said it right bro. Basically how I approached it and is how I got what I'm on.
I think we are on the same wavelength. We'll see how it goes.