+ 10 ESTROGEN AND FATIGUE
"Steroid Fatigue" Is a common catchphrase these days and refers to another function of estrogen in both the male and female body, namely its ability to promote wakefulness and a mentally alert state.With the availability of potent Aromatase Inhibitors, bodybuilders today are ,at times, noticing more extreme estrogen suppression than they had in the past. Often this suppression results in fatigue. In these conditions, the bodybuilder, though on a productive drug cycle may not be able to maximize his gains due to an inability to train at 100%. The reason is that estrogen plaays an an important supporting role in the activity of serotonin. Serotonin is one of the body's principle neurotransmitters, vital to mental alertness an the sleep/wake cycle.Interference with this neurotransmitter is also associated with chronic fatigue syndrome. These things may be important to consider when planning your next cycle or as I've seen here even your first cycle lol.
So what does this all mean to the bodybuilder looking to gain optimal size? Basically it calls for a cautious approach to the use of estrogen maintenance drugs if mass is the key objective. IMO when doing a cutting cycle many will use non-aromatizable compounds in lieu of AIs or serms. Obviously Ais should be used if there is a clear need for them due to the onset of estrogenic side effects. Gyno is certainly an unwanted problem for the steroid user as are noticable fat mass gains. BUT if these problems have not presented themselves , the added estrogen due to a cycle of test or Dianabol, might indeed be aiding in thee buildup of muscle mass, or keeping you energetic.
- Bookmark
- 10
- 0
Thanks for this. I admit I was one of the new guys that believe you should run an ai out the gate but after even more research when I thought I did a lot I find stuff like this.
This is great post. Also we discuss high estrogen a lot around here which is also imperative but this is I believe as important. I have learned this the hard way since going on cycles I have been tested with too low of estrogen rather than too high. This was because of following a rigid protocol instead of more of a sliding scale. +2
This is the best example of the problems of low estrogen for me personally. An aggressive AI regime has me needing to take a nap mid afternoon. The end result is I get irritable, short tempered and become difficult to live with.
I know my body well enough on cycle these days to be confident enough to spot problems dearly enough to fix them. Paranoia about gyno has way to many AAS users over using AI compounds.
Another great post mate, +2
56tooThanks SDM. I totally agree with you.Of all the guys I know locally, none take AIs and have no problems some even doing fairly heavy doses of gear. I feel some of these newer guys read of someone taking an AI and automatically feel they have to do likewise, then complain cause they're not seeing gains or feeling like shit.
Low estrogen is definitely detrimental but so is high estrogen. I think the problem is people trying to guess there E2 by how they feel instead of doing it with bloodwork. That would be like Preventing heart disease by the way you feel.
Having high estrogen is not good also and is very detrimental. If you are doing heavy doses of gear that converts you need an AI. But it needs to be Dialed in with bloodwork so that you end up in the high normal range. That is where you see the most benefit from estrogen and the least amount of side effects (For most).
Again bloodwork bloodwork bloodwork.
56tooYou make some very valid points. My original reason for doing this series of posts was seeing people posting cycles consisting of 500 mg/wk and including an AI from the very get go.
I get where you are coming from. But look at it this way. I have a lot of experience with TRT patients and a great deal of them need an AI. And those dosages are typically 200 mg and under. So at even 500 mg ( which is really all you need for a first cycle) you will have elevated E2. Now those levels will vary from individual to individual and that is why it is so important to dial it in with bloodwork. Everybody takes the wrong approach they think it's .5 EOD of this or 12.5 ED of that. It's a very individualistic thing and should be handled as such and the only way to do that is bloodwork, but the fact is that at 500 mg you are going to need some sort of estrogen intervention.
Look at this way, at 500 mg a lot of people will feel great and not even have a hint of Gyno. But that doesn't mean that your estrogen isn,t elevated. If someone ran legitimate 500 mg testosterone dosage a week and did blood work after 7 weeks And there estrogen was in line I would be the first one to say skip the AI. The less compounds you use the better. But unfortunately for 99% of the population that's just not going to be the case.
This is the issue, x amount eod etc as a one size fits all doesn't work. There are users that need an AI on very low doses of test, and done that need little or no AI even in high doses of test.
A lot if it stems back to parroted cycle advice from the inexperienced telling someone "take x amount of adex / aromasin etc". That combined with the worry of potential gyno isn't a great base for those new to AAS. Further down the line I think a lot of people can use their experience to tell where they're at, but there really is no better method than blood testing.
56tooI couldn't agree more SDM. If you think about it a lot of things including fads start from parroted advice. That's just the way people are. If so and so is doing it it has to be good for me too.
56tooYou say you have a lot of experience with TRT patients. What you're saying Im soaking in and I thank you for your input. I talked my father into looking at TRT. He's 85 LOL, anyways he went to Life Extension and was put on 200mg cyp/wk . They also put him on Adex and HCG. My father had his prostate removed years ago. Why would they put him on HCG? I also told him to hold off on the Adex. Its been 2 mos. since he's been on the regiment and seems to be doing good although he says he feels no different!?!??!?? He hasn't used either the Adex or HCG. He will be going back for a re-evaluation in a week or so. Your thoughts
You are welcome.
HCG Mimics LH in the body. Since we have LH receptors all over the body hCG is beneficial. In your dads case 150 IU Three times a week is plenty. And it should lead to a better overall sense of well-being.
200 mg is a very high dose. Did you have blood work done to see where he is at? older people also convert a lot more so I would keep close eye on estrogen. If it's a borderline high you can manage it with lifestyle and over-the-counter supplements. If it's extremely elevated he is going to need an AI.
He should also supplement with Pregnenolone and DHEA. These will help to back fill a lot of the pathways that are disrupted by TRT. Think of it as raw building blocks for other hormones. Available over-the-counter. Tried to get micronized versions.
At 85 small dosages of growth would also be beneficial.
Hope this helps.
56tooSupposedly Life Extension did do blood work. My father is borderline Alzheimers and its hard for him to remember 2 hrs ago let aloe what happened 2 days ago at the Dr's office lol. I also suggested GH and he said he would bring it up when he goes back...............if he remembers ! Because of privacy laws its impossible to get any info from Dr's office unless I had a POA and he's not willing to give that up just yet
I'm sorry your father is border line altzhemiers I just lost my mother in march to early onset altzhemiers she was only 53. As it is I am scared to death of getting it mom was full blown at 49. But anyways I have been researching help for not getting it and HGH has been shown in study that HGH has reversed Atrophy in the brain. Which Atrophy is the basic effects of altzhemiers in the brain.
My condolences on your mom and your grandfather. Alzheimer's is associated with plaque buildup in the brain. Now this is not scientific by any means just my own theory and opinion, so keep that in mind.
Since plaque buildup associated with coronary disease has been associated with inflammation in the body I am assuming the same would transpose to the brain. Therefore any compound that helps lower inflammation in the body ( example would be testosterone) would be beneficial to the condition.
Maybe this will give you some help in starting some additional creative juices when it comes to this disease.
56tooShit brother THAT is really sad.53 is awful young. Im older than that. My father is 85. I can tell you though I can empathize with you it has to be one of the worst diseases there is. I dont live close to them but just having to deal with their mental state is hard indeed and he's not really all that far into it yet. My condolences my friend
Thank you very much my grandfather died same age as my mom from the same thing it hereditary the early on set. It's nuts but like I say if you get a chance Google hgh help with altzhemiers and read some of the studies being done.
56tooI appreciate your input bro. Im gonna pass this on to my dad so he can bring it up to the Life Extension DR. when he goes back. I had already told him to discuss GH with him but not for the reasons you mention. Thanks again
I wish you and your father the best. Let me know if you have any other questions.
56tooThank you
You're welcome
I know not everyone is the same, but I think most would be shocked at the amount of test I can run with no AI if I have mast and proviron in the background.
56tooThats my form of Ai SDM gotta love that stuff. Viking turned me on to that and I always feel great
Ran proviron and masteron last cycle no AI and had no issues. On TRT and am running low dose proviron (25mg per day split am and pm) and again no issues. AI's made me feel like shit and limited gains either directly or indirectly because if you feel like shit you can't train as hard, eat properly, and sleep well. Will never run another cycle without mast and proviron and will only take AI's if issues arise! Great post 56.+1
56tooThanks BR. Im currently running an EQ, sust, mast and provi cycle . On week 18 and haven't taken the first drop of AI's. I've learned an awful lot from my friend Viking. He has actually set up my last three cycles and I've had great results and most importantly learned a hell of a lot. That man is a fucking gear genius lol!
x2 & +2 for the both of you. Cut out my AIs about 4 weeks ago and feel fking amazing. So much energy all day every day. Mast and proviron are keeping estro sides in check.
56tooThanks Ifit, Thats awesome, I think learning to listen too our body's reactions is so important in this game.
RustyhookerThe old cycles would trip many out. Sure wish i could spend some hours picking the origional big dudes brains. Long before these advanced estro control methods
I wonder if in the old days only the genetically gifted got to take AAS. If you grew boobs AAS wasn't for you. That and cycles weren't as over the top as they are now. It would be interesting to look at the old Dan Duchaine stuff and see what he had to say. Wow now I have googled it the original handbook wasn't around till 1988. I guess it was all bro-science back in the 50's, 60's, and 70's.
56tooReally. I don't think there was even any AI's in Arnold's day
Very good post !! Nice !!
56tooThanks PM6. This has been a topic of interest for me for some time now