posted Mon, 04/14/2014 - 23:31
3763
+ 1 bulk/cut same cycle
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Ive been here for long enough to hear this hundreds of times. Even from vets. But is it bro science? I mean I can lay out a number of cycles that this could be done on. And just as many times as ive heard that ive heard diet controls everything. Seems to me like contradiction.
So im curious to the guys that say this cant be done, why not?
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it can be done but, is it productive?? NO!! bulking means bulking.. you got to get ugly before you get big,, that doesn't mean no diet.. it means pounding down some serious amount of rice & chicken.. cutting means cutting lo carb, lots of cardio... if you don't put enough weight in the off season you will end up looking the same by the time you down to 5-7%.. a lot of guys end up giving up on cutting because, they are getting too "small" and end up not "big" nor "cut".. its a mix of i've some size but, im too embarrassed to take my shirt off at the beach because i got a gut.... its a vicious cycle of disappointments..
Why not? Twelve weeks dived by two. Spacing of orals. Changing of training.
MAX OT 6 weeks then UFC FIT 6 weeks... lol
Assuming we are not all just bags of water and actually pushing ourselves like a savage animal bent on death.
RustyhookerI don't know about 12Weeks. Not impossible but i dunno.
AnonIn my opinion it would need to.be a long cycle ... but yes i think it would be do.able
Why not
Are you thinking like restructuring the cycle half way thru.. or just a dosage adjust
For instance... running deca at a high dose will put on mass
But
Running deca at a low dose will give lean gaines and if you add inwinstrol with it one could cut up nicely
And we cant forget diet would need adjustment too
No im enjoying this cycle im not changing anything. Im just confused as to why people say it cant be done yet ive seen lots of cycles where its being done.
I believe people who say that you cant just have the claim that sure you "can" but the cycle is more effective if you just have one goal (bulk or cut) and commit everything you have into that. That being said im not one of those people and I plan on starting a 20 week cycle involving EQ Saturday that I will be gaining in the beginning and cutting at the end of.
I agree one goal would be more productive.
each cycle a goal. each month. each week each day each rep each meal.
MANY MANY LAYS
This forum is generally on the conservative side as far as doses are concerned. Which is totally fine, as we are trying to look out for the general population of recreational users.
THAT BEING SAID...
There are some advanced cycles that are capable of pushing the body in a state where it burns fat and builds muscle at the same time. Is it healthy? Certainly not. Unhealthy? I imagine, but this can vary on genetics and a lot of other factors. I certainly wouldn't recommend it unless we are talking about an advanced bodybuilder.
But, when you take a hefty dose of HGH, combine it with absurd doses of tren,test,mast,eq, primo orals such as drol/winny/var, etc on top of T3 and other fatburners, yes. Yes, you can build muscle and burn fat at the same time.
Look at levrone. The dude grew into his shows, and came out totally shredded. While it isn't the most common thing, it does happen. Some guys just have an incredible response to gear or don't care how much it takes to get to that level.
who the hell downvoted me for this? Way to slap science in the face.
RustyhookerProbably touch screen and big thumbs
Here's bump back.
I think a lot of it has to do with genetics and dedication to diet and cardio. I seem to be able to bulk just fine while staying around 10% as long as I keep my carbs around 250-300 4-5 days a week and drop them totally 2-3 days a week. Protein around 400 and fats about 80-100. I also do the tabata protocol 5 days a week first thing in the morning. Its an extreme HIIT program that only takes 4 minutes but gets the metabolism burning hot and burning body fat. I also go for a 40 minute walk over hilly terrain in the evening most days. This was the protocol I followed durning the EBC and I gained close to 20lbs while keeping bf down. Now I dont think youre gonna get contest ready doing this but it is possible if genetics allow. Granted that was also my first cycle, but it was just test e 600 all the way thru.
I've been thinking about this and I see that this is all hypothetical so I'll throw a scenario out. I would think to do this it would definitely require a very experienced user and very dedicated. I know there is no way I could pull it off. I think the cycle would almost have to be 20 weeks.
Test E for 12 wks
EQ Ran throughout the entire cycle.
Week 13-20 switch to Test P drop the dose then add either Tren A, or Mast P.
Follow a diet and training like you listed below. Makes sense on paper, but may not be practical. I guess it's all in how you define bulk. Are we talking 20+ lbs or 10-15. If you're diet is clean while bulking then it shouldn't be as difficult to cut up the new mass. Like I said this is all hypothetical and is easy for me to say, but no way I could successfully pull it off.
well TBH its not a hypothetical scenario, its very doable. obviously the longer the run the easier it is to do it but the more the chance of not fully recovering. For a TRT guy this kind of cycle is easy. For a natty guy it is a little more difficult and compounds need to be well thought out. 19nors should be limited in use and Hcg ran, with up to 6 weeks Pct if need be.
I wrote out a half page response but I deleted it just because there is to many newbs on here. the point is that these kinds of cycles happen all the time and to say that cant be done is not correct.
You can bulk and cut in the same cycle you just cant do it at the same time.
I have seen the BEST LOOKING guys here doing a "LEAN "BULK etc
I fully agree that it's DEPENDENT on the person. I'm scared to think some of these guys never read a mag. Didn't read a book. No classes. No teacher. Just guessing thats the extent. A mag, a book. ANd they are young, and buying insulin, or tren when they are not even 25.
Sure Anything is possible, but I dont want to hear about people trying to kill them selves I want to hear about people taking control of the body. The story usually is a loss of control that I see, that I have felt... They are not all trolls.. and some have no clue the compounds could kill them!!!
Bro, the desire to be able to do this is old. Nothing new. I asked my trainer today about this (AGAIN) who is an IFBB Pro and a super heavy at that. He laughed. Crazy stuff. It has been a topic of discussion at the elite levels of the sport for many years and the answer is absolutely, unreservedly, unequivocally, without so much as an iota or a scintilla of hope - no fucking way. So, like I said, you show the sport that there is a way to do this and I think it's worth a lot of money. He said u can throw in the most thought out slin and peptide protocols along with the roids and it still ain't gonna happen. Now, many of the pro's stay on a base level protocol all year and never come off. They add compounds when adding mass and switch to other compounds when prepping for a show. If u want to call that a cycle, then u are 100% right.
not all people run steroids 24/7 all year around like a pro.
Thus your pro argument is NIL. The layman on eroids isn't running gear at HIGH KILLER DOSES and training 24/7
A layman user can Bulk for 6-8 then rest 1-2 and cut 6-8!!!!total time cmon this aint about pro's
You're right and that's why as Viking suggested this thread is irrelevant to me. It's not something I can identify with or work with because I am not a recreational or "layman" user. The layman argument here is NIL to me. I hope it works out for most people really I do, for me, it just doesn't make any sense.
So your IFBB trainer dont believe you can bulk and cut in 20 weeks? im not talking about to win nationals or some shit like that, im talking about as simple as recreational use....I really dont think im following you or your following me cause I know I could put together 20 cycles that this could be done with.
I like this idea very much and if it can be done there are a lot of folk that would love the idea both here on this site and elsewhere. I'd like a better answer too.
I wouldn't post up any 20 week cycle in the forum. The only thing I can do to be helpful is this: if you feel like it - out of all the cycles u think this can be done with - pick the most promising one and send it to me. I've been with this same trainer a long time and we have become friends. His coach is a household name in the sport very recently retired. If I can dream up a reason to have my trainer show your cycle to his coach, maybe we can get some intel on why or why not they think it would work.
You are right though - the word "cut" to my trainer means stage condition. I don't think that's what u mean and I am also not a recreational user. To be honest, I no longer can even wrap my head around the idea of recreational use. I'll say this - it is possible to add a few lbs. of lean mass on a cut with the right chemicals. Now that is something I've actually done, so I know it to be true. With the right diet and the right cycle, you can do better than simply hold on to existing mass when u diet all the way down. But that isn't bulking either.
Do not stress over this thread bro.... i have stayed off it purposely because my bodybuilding attitude is that a bulk is a all out balls to the wall builder of mass..... cut means fuck all to me, show prep again balls to the wall ripped is what all this means to me.
This thread is not really for a "purist" to get involved with.
what would your advice to me be? I don't want to look huge. Just slightly ab-normal. I have extensive training knowledge, and extensive exercise background.
I am a chef and understand nutrition.
I dont want to be show bb dude. Mabye like a machida 185
http://i.imgur.com/hY06tOv.jpg
I just bulked for 6 weeks. I did deca Npp and test at low dose. I went from 200- 220. I also ran igf lr3 last 4 weeks. i DONT WANT TO WEIGH ANY MORE
now I am cutting down. Switching from sust to prop a good or bad idea? I like it.
T-3 Oral tren and liv 52 for 3 weeks. LAST 3 WEEKS
CARDI0 2x a day 60-90 min 5 days-6 or 7 lo
Weights MAX OT 4 days 2x groups a day
WHats up?
you should start your own thread and ask for feedback
Funny, I have seen many a thread from guys that run cycles like this, even some guys that compete. So I went over to the advanced steroid section and took a quick look. The first cycle I found with the same principle as im talking about from a year ago you posted "Lean mass/cutter all in one! not for me!"....LOL....
While i dont compete and try not to advise competition cycles, it does seem like a lot of these cycles are of the same concept just much more extended in terms of weeks ran.
So when you are bulking how much time do you take off before going into contest prep?
A bulker can be 6/7mths long depending on how many shows are planned for that year bro, that doesnt mean the compounds are all one big long lasting stack... it could be a number of different stacks but throughout the big cal diet stays in place, when the date comes to start to "cut" diet will then be modified and decreased in steady increments so as to hold as much lean mass as possible whilst cutting back BF..... over the long mass building period we might be looking at a weight gain of 30+lbs..... there is no way for a seasoned AAS user to gain amounts like this over lets say a 20wk period and still have enough time left within said period to do a steady cut back without eating into hard earned new muscle cells.
I dont disagree with the cycle being planned for some gain with a "tightish" ending over 20wks but no way in the world can anyone expect to lay down brand new size and come out "ripped" there simply is not enough time to do 2 separate diets..... i mean! i always plan on a 12/14wk diet to come in ripped so from this can you get to grips with my thoughts on the subject.
Another thing with me is that i like to gain slowly so its not all crap... then a slow cut ensures i have full control over what is being dropped (fat or muscle) and can adjust things to suit to get the final desired finish.
I would have to agree the longer the weight is held the better the chance of keeping those gains long term, and the more quality the cut would be.
I can see where the word purist comes into to play here. or competition and recreational. on my level where I dont really want to see sub 10%bf a cut could be bringing down 16%bf to 12-13% last 5-6 weeks of cycle or what you might consider "tightish", where as cut to you is down in the low bf% for comp. I have no illusions that your world can be accomplished in a 20 week cycle.
I knew you would understand were i was coming from bro, i wasnt trying to be a dick or anything.. its just simply a different perspective i have thats been hammered into me over the past 30+ yrs.
Just as an example let me put this down here, my youngest pupil is now just turned 23 .... you know i dont like doing much with youngsters but this lad took my eye and i think he is something special.
So 2yrs ago i take him onboard... stats were 6.2 @ 168lbs (skinny right!).. ok so we get him eating and training correctly and slowly introduce him to compounds! like all youngsters he wants massive gains "yesterday" lol... so its constant telling him to slow the fuck down and persevere with the set regime and the gains will come .
Right!.. so last week we weigh him out and do calliper readings to get ready for his first show this sept..... after 2yrs these are the results.................
was 168lbs...... now 238lbs....... thats 5 stone = 70lbs gain @ 12%BF..... in 2yrs (24mths).
Now that to me is SERIOUS gaining! and now i dont have to prompt him to eat or timings when he has to hit the carbs etc.... its built in now and he does it like clockwork.
Stuff like this is what makes my days worthwhile now brother.... the buzz i get from seeing someone's face when they accomplish and in most cases overtake their dreams is fkn unbelievable .... i can smile for a month when i see results like this :))))))))
Thanks bro. I'm always wanting to learn new things, but what you just said is all I have ever known.
ill PM you something to think about
True, I should have stated that 20 weeks is a little long for the guy that's not on TRT. I did leave out the HCG. I understand about some people reading a full response and running with it. I wouldn't do that, however I do like getting a look at advanced cycles, gives you an understanding of what can really be unlocked with a proper use of compounds. My scenario was just based on some things I've used and the science behind certain compounds. I have enough sense to know what's beyond my limits.
On a side note I did the front load you suggested on my cycle and I haven't noticed any difference in estro related sides. I ran the number on Roidcalc before hand, and the levels were unbelievable so I gave it a shot. I noticed that my weight is up noticeably sooner then previous cycles. I'm just starting week 3 and I'm getting that feeling.
guys that are really out of shape and new to roids seem to be able to pull this one off, just look at some of the self pics posted over the years, but i think its a lot harder for someone to pull off at a lower body fat percentage
Dang, u figure this one out and u can make a million dollars. This is bodybuilding hall of fame stuff. It is the ultimate dream we all have - being able to bulk and cut on the same cycle. I've tried it more than once, my buds have tried it - my trainer asked one of bodybuilding's legends if it could be done - the answer was no.
I dunno why not. Start with Test / Deca or NPP / dbol and switch to Test / Tren / Mast and Winny tabs. Change from a wet (or perhaps better dry) bulk diet to something drastic like keto on the cut. It just doesn't seem to wanna happen is all I can say. I mean it sounds good. It seems logical. There has to be some deep scientific reason why it just doesn't seem to work. Our metabolism can't swich gears like that?
How can any of us say "it can't be done?" I can't do it. My friends with nice long competition histories have never been able to either. Without dropping names - some top guys in the sport say no. I certainly don't know or haven't met a lot of them, maybe some have done it - but to be able to pull it off with enough lawyers involved to protect the method is worth a lot of money - hasn't happened yet.
I have been trying like crazy to lean bulk and or cut bulk. So far I am either losing a few pounds, or gaining them right back. For me its one or the other because it is difficult to do both.
I with ya on that one dude!
well roid this is my own opinion... if your going to bulk then LETS BULK give it 110% dedicate your self to gaining as much quality mass as possible. and do you cutting with a propper diet.. i just dont see the science in it unless your a top level professional. if i am wrong school me im open to listening by all means.
i usally do back to back bulkers then do my cutting
lets just keep it simple, for the boards sake. Im a recreational user, just do this for fun. but I plan my cycles around events in my life quite often, or even seasons.
So lets say im 4 months out from a ball, wedding, class reunion, what ever.
test-e 500mg/w 1-16
winny 100mg/d 13-17 or var or mast or EQ ace (I know some will argue that 5 weeks of short ester is not enough but are you sure?)
5000calories/day 1-12
2700calories/day 13-17, double up on cardio, change to longer repped sets and lighter weight.
So is this not doable? and im keeping with in the limits of natty users, and mild cycles.
Ok so just basically last 5 weeks your switching esters and cutting back on your calories and upping cardio. to strip the excess fat and water you have put on. I can agree with the fact that can be done effectively .
But I don't agree with the guys trying to bulk 20 pounds while keeping shredded it's not possible IMO I'm no expert but correct me if I'm wrong we have all seen those post
I just want to hear back from someone - anyone who has done a bulk and cut on the same cycle and been successful. I'm certainly willing to do exactly what they did and see what happens.
I mean Roid certainly makes a lot of sense . . .
No I agree 100% of what he laid out that can be done effectively
Well, those dosages and those calories wouldn't work for me, but that's no biggie - but 5 weeks to pull the fat and water out of a 12 week bulk? That would have to by a dry, I mean arid desert bulk. LOL The diet would have to be flawless.
Basically all he is doing is getting super strick with the diet last 5 weeks the ovum pounds maintain the muscle while there's a calorie deficit
But it is also known that testosterone (among others) helps males burn fat as well.
absolutly it does the more muscle you build the more calories you burn
Uh, Oh.. I am going to grab some popcorn (no butter) and see how this one plays out. I too am very interested at what you more professional guys have to say about this.
I wanna see some more low ranking guys in here like me. The senior guys chatting up these theories is great fun. More impressive to me is a guy that has actually done it. I mean what everybody is saying makes perfect sense. When I first heard from a MOD here that I could drop Test to a TRT level when running Tren, the explanation made perfect sense but I wasn't a believer until I did it and it worked.
RustyhookerIm on day 14 of 250sus/400mast e/600eq . Ive done it before. We shall see if i can do it this time. Forget karma, I'm here as old fart Guinea pig same as anyone.
186 this morning 14% bf.. End of July will be posting pix.
And just FYI ADV or MORE EXPERIENCED guys Dosent make them smarter than a low ranking member .. I never judge someone by karma i let there mouth judge them lol
RustyhookerIt's not impossible but is difficult for me. Probably easier for advanced user with short Esters. Switch gear from wet bulk, dry then drop test low and shred with diet matching gear
RustyhookerBeginner stack i love eq and manipulate the test. 400/400 test e and eq. Var kills my appetite. So eq can do its thing.
1-10 400/400
11-18 250/400
15-21 var 75/day
No prop taper to dryout. Endurance boost from eq makes cardio a snap. Manipulate carbs last half as needed.