posted Thu, 05/23/2013 - 19:43
5010
Pct.. Did something change?
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I keep seeing ppl saying that if your using pharm grade Clomid that you shouldnt go over 50mg. I have always been told to run the standard 100/100/50/50. Any input on this from some vets? And if that's true does that go for Nolva too?
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RustyhookerHypogodonal studies are excellent! Problem with direct translation from hypogonadinism to a steroid cycle is that post cycle you're not suffering from low testosterone as posted in the clipped articles. You're dealing with ZERO testosterone. Complete shutdown. So according you your studies, you can go ling term to sliwly recover. But eith long term recovery you are still sending false signals thay do have a direct effect. Not only in slow recovery and MASS loss but the side effects these recovery agents bring to the table.
Those reports are functional however, not a direct correlation to steroid use. Posted blood tests by the hundreds are clearly posted on this site. Steroids used at the levels we entertain aren't as readily researched becausr its simply illegal. But thanks to this site we test the correlation betwern BOTH recovery and keeping the mass.
Not one study you clipped and pasted shows direct links between keeping mass and recovering fast.
Its very nice to debate with someone reasonably and appreciate the karma you have given back bro, in response though..
Our original argument was that I was wrong and was spouting bro-ology so ill try to explain my point as best I can and pick at a few of your points as well.
Me and you both know very well that there are no studies or research papers present, that directly cater to steroid usage that are of any real use. As you said they are illegal etc.
There are no studies of any sort relating hormone balances/recovery to Mass and weight and there never will be. Any info you have is regarding this is here 'say, opinion based and unfortunately bro-ology..
Weight and mass changes can be influenced by so many things, its impossible to accurately measure it from case to case, ever hear of the guys that put on 25lb in 8 weeks ?
That's because half of it was water weight lol and will be lost regardless of how well there hpta recovered.
PCT has nothing to do with mass or weight its about restoring hormonal balance and recovering the body back to normal. As a side effect of doing this well we lose less gains, that's all...
I cant post any studies dealing with total (0) shutdown, and no1 else can either, as they done exist. as you said steroid studies are illegal etc, So again any advice would be bro-ology and opinion based..
-But not everyone/all cycles result in absolute shutdown, remember it depends upon the cycle, individual dosages and compound choices etc, therefore PCT dosages/protocols will obviously vary somewhat, there's no set in stone rule dosage for everyone..
I have included some studies below buddy that show the effects in the time parameters of a common pct e.g. 4-8 weeks and they show some very nice results with low dosages used, this hopefully supports the effectiveness of lower dosages in the time scales applicable to pct..
http://ergo-log.com/nolvabest.html
Unfortunately clomid is not included here ^^^, but the other 2 serms are (torem @ 60mg a day I might add).
I'm sure you'll agree though that clomid is the most acute and rapid acting so will follow along these results (most likely trump them)
here's a study showing clomid's effectiveness at 25 mg over 4-6 weeks with men suffering from hypogonadism:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16422830
SUMMARY.
No study will show keeping mass and hormonal recovery as its un-measurable and there is no need for it..
You or nobody else on this site can provide any Accurate correlation between hormone recovery and mass lost, it wont/cant happen and is un-measurable.
hypo gonadal men are next best thing to the real thing and the studies show dosages of around half of what I suggested, therefore 2 serms working together at double the dosage used in the hypo gonadal studies seems viable to me and ultimately works very well (for me etc).
I agree with the choice of meds, just the dosages I disagree with.
If you can run 50mg of clomid and recover, you will defiantly recover with 100mg, but just be warned !
if you are prone to blood clots than don't complain to me if you drop dead from an Aneurysm...
anyone could copy and paste, invent or post up some blood work and then say I took "X Y Z" and this is the results, clearly bro-ology at its finest I'm sure you'll agree.
Lastly I assume you have no studies or info regarding the higher dosages you prescribe and your info is solely experience, opinion based. (nothing wrong mind, just curious)
I am not a computer dick or getting anything out of this just trying to state my point bro nothing personal at all. I am just bring some new info to the table and trying to highlight that serms and recover meds are borrowed from other fields and have side effects.
RustyhookerHormone recovery has absolutely everything do do with keeping the mass gained from s cycle. Thats the entire reason to even do a pct. The faster and better you recover, the more gains retained. As stated with me being a Guinea pig. I did it correct and suffered no loss and actually did gain. That correlation along with posted blood tests show not only pct saved the mass but also bloods prove natty hormonal reset. Without your natty system rebooting, you certainly will drop mass.
This basis is exactly why i push the aro pct.
Ever debate prop half life? Your writing style is very familiar...
prop half life ? don't think so, in all honesty I seriously doubt I am whoever you think I am, but what ever lol
You cannot gauge a pct by the loss of gains or weight on your scales, this is the most alarming part of your argument it screams idiot ! and don't mince my words. Obviously if your pct is better and you return your hormone levels to normal quickly you will minimise losses. (jesus)
BUT don't go pretending you can gauge a pct on how much you lost, there are too many variables and its nonsense, so stop making these idiotic points.
Incorrect dosing of your Ai could lead to more "apparent losses" as you would be carrying some extra water and regardless of how well you pct that water will drop so your whole theory is redundant, and there are numerous other factors to note as well (diet change, compound choice, cycle length etc).
AND for the last time if you run 50mg and recover than you will with 100mg (agree ?)
But if you can recover with 50mg why take 100mg and increase the risk of sides !
that's it ^^ nothing to do with mass or anything else and you still haven't posted anything at all in regards to real studies or real data which is very rich seeing as you asked me for some and I posted them lol
My concern is the length of use in these studies. Some of the subjects were taking these low doses for months.
A very important concern bro and seeing as im supposed to be working as I write this lol, I had to post fast.
Anyways here a study with time scales included for torem and nolvadex both used in low dosages with there effects and dosage times:
http://ergo-log.com/nolvabest.html
Unfortunately clomid is not included here, but the other 2 are (torem @60mg a day I might add). Im sure you'll agree though that clomid is the most acute and rapid acting so will follow along these results (most likely trump them), if I find the particular study's im looking for, I will post them up for you bud.
here's a study showing clomid's effectiveness at 25 mg over 4-6 weeks with men suffering from hypogonadism:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16422830
hope this is of some help..
Rustyhooker+1 for opening a good debate
thankyou
RustyhookerThe best part of this debate is not just talking the talk but putting it directly into effect.
Case in point is ME as the Guinea pig. Common knowledge any newb realizes is that long or harsh cycles make recovery all the more difficult. Not only did i run both long and hard for 24Weeks, i used the aromasin pct. During the pct i had none of the moodiness, blues or crybaby typical in other pct's used. I did not use hcg on cycle nor in pct. I not only kept 100% of my gains but with good foods i GAINED mass during pct. I finished pct 4 rocked pounds heavier and drier than on cycle.
So I'm not simply talking, teaching and guiding folks....I'm doing it with Guinea pig numero uno. Me.
Aro 12.5 12.5 6.25 6.25
Clomid 100...100...50...50
Nolva 20..20...10..10
Right ! so in response to your childish snipes elsewhere, im calling you out bro !!
ALL you have said is your own opinion and views you have provided no information, proof or studies of any kind and your responses are laughable at best. BRO-OLOGY !
Any retard that thinks you gauge a PCT on how much mass you lose or gain is talking drivel and any steroid use with any brains can tell this is bull shit, Mass lost will depend upon diet, fluid consumption and a million and one other things so cant be gauged or monitored. PCT is about recovery of the hpta axis. Fuck me how many of you loose lb's in water weight ? that's not going to stop because of a good pct !!
(this comment goes beyond retarded imo) !!
Any idiot will/should use aromasin in a pct its a given and nothing new or special at all !
all you are doing is telling the world to use the same pct for all cycles and this is wrong, very wrong.
Everyone one of us will respond differently and all cycles are different too, so giving anybody who asks the same pct plan is tripe, Learning our own bodies and getting blood work is what's needed and I can assure you that your pct plan is overkill for a lot of guys and may give them other health probs down the road. Don't take shit if not's needed etc and in your pearls of wisdom you fail to mention this in your arguent..
Don't get your queer friends to remove my karma because you cant argue your point or construct a case for your view points, you look stupid and tryng to rig so your appearance/online persona doesn't get damaged is pathetic. All you are doing is telling the world to use the same pct for all cycles and this is wrong very wrong.
And don't attack people for offering a new view point and saying its brology, when you yourself cannot produce a shred of info or data yourself and justify your point with "my friends run this" and iv got thousands of pct bloods,m where are they post them up ?
RustyhookerSo basically all you've done here is copy and paste with NO REAL WORLD use or advice proven.
Pot callin the kettle black arent ya
yeh I copied and pasted the links ? what's your point ?
did you want me open my own lab, or fly to brazil etc and conduct my own experiments lol ?
you are badly ducking the fact you have no info or facts at all after asking me to post REAL studies !
and I have plenty of "real" experience my friend you are claiming I have no experience because I use 25-50mg less clomid than you..
you have no argument at all lol
very similar bro to me, and honestly no disrespect or gripes wel have to agree to disagree I guess
That's why I trust you bro, you talk the talk cause you've walked the walk.
again retarded comment, a lot of the Mr Olympia's have walked the walk and are now dying of liver cancer.
your putting your faith and health in the hands of someone's opinion.
why did you start a thread if the only advice you wanted was rustys ? easier to pm him and save everybody's time...
Damn bud calm down. I'm reading and taking in everyone's opinions. As for Rusty he is a trusted member of the boards who has never gave me bad advice. If you look down the thread Sgt also echoed his advice which is another trusted member. These guys have posted bloods, with this pct. Viking reccomends this PCT along with other Vets. I posted this cause I had seen your post and want to see what EVERYONE thought. As far as retard comment your making yourself look bad, and the whole karma thing I don't know who is taking your karma I don't down vote karma for different opinions bro. Calm down bud.
ok well apologies to you, I don't really care anymore tbh these guys can take as much karma as they want, take it all lmao..
reason for my annoyance is this:
In the other threads this guy bashed all my posts, probably 3 or 4 threads and then said I was talking rubbish and bro-ology.
he then says I quote "post REAL studies, REAL data" so I did and showed my reasoning and also explained why some of the points he made were gibberish.
He has posted nothing to argue/prove his points and his only defence is taking karma ?
I find it a bit pathetic tbh and I wouldn't have even bothered had he not challenged me and gave the impression that he actually had something to say/prove and it turned out to be fantasy and just his bro-science opinion.
no hard feelings though
RustyhookerKeep the eyes open. Big things that have been tested prior by Guinea pigs will be group tested by Viking soon. Treads proven gh forums on axis and recovery. And Guinea pigs are testing a one dose axis reset chem currently.
Thinking about gettin in Vik's little experiment. But think I should leave that to the big dogs. Got CD helpin me out but I need to recover from my current cycle before I jump in
im definitly not a vet but ive been seeing the same thing with one member in particular advising not to go over 50mgs of clomid. im going to be using torem during my upcoming pct, which stimulates lh and fsh, so as i dont want to overstimulate im only taking 50mgs of clomid with it. nolvadex blocks estro at the breast tissue which we need to prevent gyno, however with aromasin being incorporated into more and more pct's, a lower dose of nolva works just fine because theres less estrogen in our bodies thanks to the a-sin.
RustyhookerI use the 100...100..50..50
correct!!!! x2
sgtstedankoYup. X2
No. You shouldn't go over 100mg clomid in your pct and don't run 100mg for more than a month. Also, nolva no more than 40mg, but you can run it for as long as you want more or less. Clomid rules apply because it can mess up your lh levels. Nolva rules apply because it lowers your gh levels significantly.