+ 19 Lets STOP the BRO SCIENCE
Before Let me tell you about my education Im a RN
I graduated from one of the top 20 Nursing school in America. An RN education includes Anatomy and physiology, Pathophysiology which this includes we learned in well detail about the endocrine system. Im writing this to stop the misconception of HCG.
Alot of forums and bobybuilders believe that HCG creates a negative feedback to the male hypothalamic pituitary gonadal axis and this is totally FALSE
HCG mimic LH and in NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM DOES LH CREATE A NEGATIVE FEEDBACK LOOP
Only Testosterone, DHT and Estrogens(Estrodoil and Oestrodoil) have a and inhibiting affect)
As you see in this image LH does not have anything to do with negative feedback loops and estrogens have a strong affect .This is why Nolvadex and clomid work so well and help us during PCT.
And we need AI because once the body see that there enough or alot of Estrogens it creates a negative feedback loop
Therefore thats why Aromasin is a wiser choice but Arimidex can work just as good only down fall is a slight rebound of short time burst of excessive E2(estrodoil)
This study below here backs up everything im typing
http://m.eje-online.org/content/155/4/513.short
This study below explains that HCG preserves our natural test production during and after exogenus Testosterone
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1478834/?page=1
So in conclusion HCG taken with and Ai to control aromatazation and in addition with Clomid and Nolvadex will make a strong PCT to regain our endogenous Testosterone production.
Now if u inject HCG alone with no Ai yes it will create a negative feedback loop because of the aromatization NOT HCG itself!!!
But i must add that we must also think about cortisol control during pct i will make another post about cortisol control during pct ive done it during my pct and i barley shrink. I only loose water weight and maybe an 1/8 inch in bicep circumference.
Anyways until next time
Happy eating Eroiders 
UPDATE: Thanx for the added knowledge of Numbhere we had a big debate and I learned that HCG suppress LH instantly http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/19170708/
And suppress FSH after chronic use in the study below it took 3month for FSH to be suppreesed by HCG
BOTH FSH and LH are products of GnRH
That being said HCG does not stop GnRH instantly the 1st and most important step of the negative feedback loop. So clomid amd
Nolvadex will counter act this mechanism
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/3084535/
Also the longer we use HCG the more desentistization will occur to the LH receptors affecting the results of your PCT time
Using HCG during cycle which can be 10-15week has its pro and bigger con
Pro preserves testicular function Con Desentistize the LH receptors therefore come PCT time while clomid and nolvadex produces LH the LH will have no effect to the receptors therefore affecting Testostorone production by the testicles
If HCg used during PCT its used for a short period of time 4-5 weeks causing less desensitization and Clomid and Nolvadex will be used counteracting the LH suppression HCG can cause.
So in conclusion use this info and you decide how you wana take your ride either way we are still fucking our system up just one more than the other
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This is good info. I'll be honest I didn't completely understand it but I'm wondering if you might know why hcg made me feel like complete crap? Seems no one else has any problems with it.
Hey I just got around to reading this. With me, I take adex but ill have rebound within the same day of taking it. I dont get it. Im about to just switch to Aro full time I Think.
RustyhookerOr read my pct forum....
This is a really informative post! Looking forward to finding the one on cortisol.
Good red
Awesome discussion on HCG mates . It's something that might be apart of my next cycle . Still reaching pro's and con's of HCG and at this point undecided .
Good info, great debate!
dontgivemeadviceSo not good to use hcg during cycle and then for 10 day blast before pct ? Should we cycle it like 10 weeks hcg at 500 in. Off 10 weeks. Then 10 day blast into pct ?
nice post and update!
Post has been updated thanx to Numbhere i added good info Thank you brother for the debate
Question as it pertains to this topic:
I am coming off 10 weeks Sustanon 250 at ~400mg/week (light cycle..that is what I prefer though). I am starting my taper of test prop soon and will run that at a taper dose until the sustanon is fully out of my system. I do have hcg, and had it during the sust cycle, but really only used it periodically 'as needed'. There was not much need (minimal atrophy), so I used it at 250IU or 350IU once per week for about the last month.
My question is, what would ya'll suggest I do with the HCG as I taper down with Test Prop to insure I give myself the best chance at a smooth PCT. PCT will be standard Clomid/Nolva taper down. (I will probably hit D3 at high levels and have Peptides I will probably introduce at that time, too).
Thanks
Pyramiding doses is an old school method, and is counter productive.
Your body was never designed to be manipulated. Stability is not only vital for the HPTA but for all systems of the body. Even when one is "shut down" it's important to maintain stable blood levels. When planning a cycle one should choose doses and then adhere to them for the entire duration unless an issue arises.
PCT for sus usually begins 18 days after last pin and 3 days after last pin for test p. So you should stop using the sus for at least 15 days while using prop. Then wait 3 days and begin a nolva clomid PCT. Continue using your hcg twice a week at 250 IU until three days before PCT. Keep using your AI until the day PCT begins. If e2 is under control an AI isn't needed after that point.
Testicular volume is a poor way to measure natural test production.
Thanks for the reply! Basically what I was thinking, too.
Again, thanks!
With all due respect this is bad advice.
Like test, hcg is suppressive to natural hormone production. It makes no sense to suppress the pituitary with hcg when we are trying to stimulate natural LH production. Hcg should be used from the first day on cycle to 3 days before PCT, dosed at 250 IU twice per week.
Using hcg during PCT and not while on cycle is like putting on your seatbelt after being in a car accident. Using hcg while on cycle will maintain leydig cell functionality. This meas natural test production will never be totally stopped, increasing one's chances for a successful recovery.
Also, IMO AIs should not be used during PCT. The simplest way I can explain this is by comparing a SERM to a AI. A SERM will more or less trick the body into thinking e2 levels are low, thus inducing test production. An AI will actually make your e2 lower. If you use a AI during PCT you risk crashing your e2.
Your talkin bro science i showed scientific proof that in no way shape or form can excessive LH can supress you .HcG mimic LH
Its not apart of the negative feed back loop
Whats your education backround?
Did you. Read the studies sir?
Scientists dont agree with what you are saying
You need an Ai cause yes the SERM is trickin the body no E2 so E2 becomes aromtase priorty to make more E2 so your precious testostorone will get converted!
Come back with scientific proof before replying do not reply talking out of your &$&
with all due respect, you cant neg him twice for him disagreeing with you, this topic has much discussion and much controversy, both your points and his points are valid, like i said no disrespect to you or him, but if i were ou i would give his points back, its unfair.
Jst did but his arguement have no validation
I have studies with my replies.
Bro he telling people no Ai during PCT
And there is no studies nor in books does it say That LH is apart of the negative feedback loop
well im on no ones side, but i will bite here and share my opinion.
if you control estrogen and or pro g/ pro l on cycle, there is no need for ai use in pct, think about it for a second, lets make it simple, you run a test only cycle, you have ran lets say aromasin @ 6.25 mgs a day starting at around week 3 or 4, you get bloods done at around lets say week 10 of a 12 week cycle, your estro number comes in at lets say 30-40, you ai has done a good job and kept estro down, you used aromasin which is a suicide inhibitor meaning there is no chance of rebound, you let the esther clear, you start your pct, estro is fine, why would you want to add in an ai to lower estrogen further? crash your estro too zero? the only time i would recommend an ai during pct is if estro is high going into it, then i would say run aromasin for the first ten days depending on bloods or numbers, if you floor your estro, goodbye gains, libido, joints, even mental health, the key is bloods and monitoring, keep the numbers in check.
im not on anyones side here.
Thats understandable but he did not specify what Ai used during cycle
Usally whats mostly used during cycle is arimidex.
mate your post is good, im watching and waiting, its a good discussion, you bith have valid points, lol this topic is debated all over the internet!! there seems too be no definitive answer regarding the use of hcg, i guess its what works best for the individual with bloods backing it up, what orks for some may not work for others, some say use hcg entire cycles, some say leading up too pct, some say use it soley for pct by itself, so many differences and variables, but yes, anatomacially we are all made the same etc, but once you add in what people have put in there system, the science changes on the individual, has the person abused steroids for 20 years and wrecked his endocrine system? sterile? trt? is the person fully healthy? thats the best part of a site like this, the discussions and debates, something new everyday, and its all learning, some people go almost blind from clomid, some people have chronic migranes on nolva, others have no problems you see what im sayin? someone could take the exact pct you listd above to the absolute dot and still be fully shut down, others can get away with no pct and recover by them selves in a few months, its such a varying degree of imbalance person too person.
plus 2 too you both!
What AI is used during cycle has no bearing on my comment.
Whether one uses aromasin, arimidex or letro doesn't matter as long as e2 is kept within range.
Some AIs make controlling e2 easier and I would suggest beginning with taking aromasin at 12.5 mg twice per day ED (with healthy fats) or arimidex at 25 mg/EOD. Then having blood work mid cycle and titrating dose as needed.
12.5 mgs of aromasin twice per day is way too much if correctly dosed and legit, and im assuming you meant .25 of adex not 25.
Lol yes I meant .25 mg of dex. Thank you for correcting that typo.
I respectfully disagree that 25 mg of aromasin is too much. Aromasin is an often underdosed AI. Both 25 mg/ED and 50 mg/ED doses will have relatively the same effect on e2. While aromasin is very effective at lowering estrogen it is difficult to lower estrogen too much with this AI.
I would like to add that mid cycle blood work is crucial in order to properly dose an AI.
Pharmacokinetics and Dose Finding of a Potent Aromatase Inhibitor, Aromasin (Exemestane), in Young Males
thy also have articles stating that oxymetholone was prescribed at 500mgs a day for aids patients and letrozole at 2.5 mgs a day for 2 years, does not mean that the way we use it in this game, i ran a cycle a few years back, it was 1800mgs of test, 600 deca, 600 eq dbol for the first 6 weeks and anadrol for the last 6 weeks, the cycle went for about 20 weeks, i used 12.5 mgs every 2nd day of aromasin, estro was fine, had blood pre, mid and after, 25 mgs a day of aromasin would floor 95% of people estro with in 3 weeks easily.
To be honest I'm a bit frustrated with this thread. I'm asked to back up statements with scientific journal articles. However, when I do I'm told that they hold no bearing.
I'm not trying to be argumentative or step on respected members toes. This isn't much of an open discussion if opposite viewpoints won't even be considered.
dont take it to heart mate, your opinion is just as valid as anyone elses, keep it up, its good! you remind me of myself when i joined! your allowed to type what ever you want bro, no ones going to have a go! like i always say, if you think you right, never back down! but, in a forum like this, other people are always going to have varying views/ opinions, your comments are no less or no more important than the next, dont worry about other peoples karma or tags, take them on if you can back it up bro, the thing is, real life experience is best.
you can go on google find a study, then you can find another 5 studies the same with different answers or results etc etc!
its all good mate.
No it does Arimidex has a short half lofe and will cause E2 rebound
And while using clomid and nolvadex E2 will still be made by the aromatazition of the Testosterone made
But yes like Flash said is Aromasin was used different story letro would also fit in that category.
First I would like to say, although I disagreed with you I was not rude. I would appreciate it if you would be less antagonistic and refrain from using obscenities.
I don't understand the importance of my education, but have 3 engineering degrees.
Yes, I read scientific studies often. I feel that that studies you posted backup my original post and that the schematics you posted are misleading. If one reads the first link attached, which is hosted by Colorado State University, one will see that LH is part of the sex steroid negative feedback loop.
When hcg is used on cycle leydig cell functionality is preserved, and natural test production never stops. It makes no sense to stop a vial process if it can be avoided. Hcg is suppressive to natural LH production. Using a repressive hormone during PCT is counter productive.
Having LH, or an analog, in our bodies is also important in the enzymatic reactions of converting cholesterols into other important hormones. Using hcg helps keep enzyme and hormonal pathways flowing. This is why many report an increased sense of well being when adding hcg to their cycle.
An AI is not needed during PCT because exogenous test is no longer being introduced into the body. Using an AI during PCT puts one at risk of crashing their e2.
Gonadotropins: Luteinizing and Follicle Stimulating Hormones
HCG: Why you should use it on-cycle only & how to prepare your hCG for injections
Your link is more bro science partly true
But LH is not in part of the negative feedback loop!! those pixtures are from scienctific amd medical educational sources. Also remember PCT is a protocol done for 4-5WEEKS!
I have a patho book and an Anatomy book that doesnt agree with what you are saying
Stick to engineering. science and medicine is my profession your confusing new users here
Yes i agree hcg during cycle can be beneficial! But has the study shows which i know you didnt read.
The study as linked above page 75 Biological Action at cellular level 3rd paragraph talks about receptor affinity and degradation. So the longer you use it can affect receptors. Your saying to use it during a cycle which is 10-15weeks
PCT is 4-5weeks. And even so the receptors will gain regularity again after giving it a break. So better to use in PCT than cycle!
As for FSH suppression that doesnt happen until its chronically used (Chronic-more than 6months.[medical definition]) ask any other RN or medical professional what Chronic means.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/3084535/
But thats why youll have clomid and Noldex which will combat that and raise your FSH. Amd FSH is more for sperm production NOT TESTOSTERONE . They work together synergistly.
And no Ai during PCT is gona accumilate excessive E2
E2 can be made with no problem after PCT
Excessibe E2 ignites the negative feedback loop no more test production
Your theory is awful dont give advice like that.
Please have resources and studies to back up your reply.
Just because you have a nursing degree does not make you any more qualified on this subject than an engineer. Please get off your high horse before you give advice that will permanently injure someone.
You are correct LH is not part of the example negative feedback loop you presented in the OP. However, there are many negative feed back loops that take place in the body. Just eating food will result in an increase in glucose and create a negative feedback loop. LH and FSH are part of the sex hormone negative feedback loop.
Yes, of course leydig cell degradation occurred in the study you cited, because the subjects were taking 10,000 IU of hcg per week. Degradation can occur at doses >500 IU/day. I'm promoting using 250 IU twice per week. The same protocol that a medical doctor would prescribe a TRT patient for many many years.
An update to the Crisler HCG protocol
One takes time off after a cycle and before PCT. During this time off test levels drop to preferably 150-200 ng/dl. When test levels are low excessive aromatization will not occur. This negates the need for using an AI during PCT.
Where is your resource of LH and FSH being part of negative feedback loop?
I just presented with proof it isnt!
Bro the link you provoded is for a person in TRT they are never coming back to be natural
Bad example.
We are AAS user who plan to use for a certain period of
Time and come back.
And that Dr. Is explaining what everybody knows its not a controlled study with documented Data. A Scientisit has far more knowledge power than a Dr.
Dr. Go by studies documented by scientist
Books are written by what scientist have documented. All your replies are worthless.
LH and FSH are part of the sex hormone negative feedback loop. Introducing exogenous LH (or analog) will suppress natural LH production.
Gonadotropins: Luteinizing and Follicle Stimulating Hormones
*If the hyperlink doesn't work try copy paste.
http://arbl.cvmbs.colostate.edu/hbooks/pathphys/endocrine/hypopit/lhfsh....
Low-Dose Human Chorionic Gonadotropin Maintains Intratesticular Testosterone in Normal Men with Testosterone-Induced Gonadotropin Suppression
Exogenous testosterone: a preventable cause of male infertility
Actually a patient on TRT using hcg is a great example. One of the reasons hcg is prescribed to TRT patients is so that if they decided to end treatment they have a better chance at recovering their pre TRT test levels.
Hahah you just made my point vaild
You are not knowing what you are reading
LH and FSH are like the middle man they are the precursors of the sex hormones.
This is why im telling you education is key to understand what one is reading.
GnRH is controlled by how many sex hormones are present Not the Precursors
Look at the photo its similar to the ones i posted. You are not understanding what you are reading.
Belittle me if you must, but that does not change the scientific fact that if one takes hcg then natural LH production will be suppressed.
That post above still states LH is not apart if negative feedback loop
As for LH suppression clomin and nolvadex will counter act that and raise LH n FSH
So that being said your first arguement is still invalid excessive LH wont create a negative feedback
Again i apologize bout LH suppression arguement i gave u back karma
HcG doesnt suppress GnRH
Bro no study nor the link you provide
Are proving that
Hcg is suppressive to natural LH production.
"Both rhCG doses produced a steep, dose-proportional increase in serum and urine hCG with increases in serum and urine T and suppression of serum and urine LH, regardless of hCG dose.
Effects of Recombinant Human LH and hCG on Serum and Urine LH and Androgens in Men
I apoligize about the LH suppression
Ok wait after careful reading your RIGHT ill give back your 1 karma about HcG suppressing LH
But your first arguement was that LH is apart of negative feedback loop which is still not correct. How did we start talkin bout LH suppression??
During PCT clomid and nolvadex will counter act the LH n FSH suppression
We began talking about LH suppression because it's a vital piece of this equation. I agree that clomid/nolva will stimulate LH/FSH. However, it is counterproductive during recovery to send one signal to the to the hypothalamus (via nolva/clomid) that e2 is low and to secrete gnrh in order to begin test production. When, at the same time, you are sending an opposite signal (via hcg) to the pituitary that a sufficient amount of LH is available for test production.
During PCT we are trying to regain natural hormone production (homeostasis). This is why one should not use a suppressive hormone (hcg) during PCT.
When hcg is used on cycle natural test production never stops. This makes recovering homeostasis during PCT much easier.
LH is vital part of the negative feedback loop, because without LH one would not have test and suffer from secondary hypogonadism.
"The hypothalamus releases gonadotrophin-releasing Hormone (GnRH), a trophic peptide hormone responsible for the release of follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH) and luteinizing Hormone (LH) from the anterior pituitary. LH in turn stimulates the testicular interstitial Leydig cells to release testosterone, and FSH stimulates spermatogenesis within the testicular Sertoli cells. Adequate circulating testosterone levels provide negative feedback inhibition on the hypothalamo–pituitary unit."
The Male Gonadal Axis and Male Secondary Hypogonadism
*If the above link is accessible please copy paste.
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/779045_2
Yes bro but it doesnt stop GnRH cause in the past study about FSH both LH and FSH are products from GnRH
LH is instantly shutdown thanks to you i learned this information, But FSH isnt instantly shitdown it takes months before FSH is shutdown by HCG meaning GnRH is still being produced and BOTH LH and FSH are products of GnRH meaning its still present. LH seems to stop since hcg is present.
The problem with using HCG for long periods of time like during cycle is that your messing with the LH receptors sensitivity as the study i posted the longer your on it the more desentistation is happening so then come PCT the LH thats being produce will have less to no effect therefore effecting regaining natural test production.
So in concluson GnRH the 1st step of the negative feedback loop isnt messed with by HCG till chronic use. LH suppression is only the middle man not the main suppression product.
You are partly correct. Leydig cell desensitization from hcg will only occur from large doses.
There are 2 ways leydig cell desensitization may occur. The first is prolonged leydig cell deprivation. An example would be a long steroid cycle. The second is over stimulation from large doses of LH. There is no reason to use more than 500 IU of hCG at one time.
Yes, of course leydig cell degradation occurred in the study you cited, because the subjects were taking 10,000 IU of hcg per week. Degradation can occur at doses >500 IU/day. I'm promoting using 250 IU twice per week. The same protocol that a medical doctor would prescribe a TRT patient for many years.
The quote below if from Dr John Crisler. He is the renowned for being the world's leading TRT physician.
"It is important that no more than 500IU of HCG be administered on any given day. There is only just so much stimulation possible, and exceeding that not only is wasteful, doing so has important negative consequences. Higher doses overly stimulate testicular aromatase, which inappropriately raises estrogen levels, and brings on the detrimental effects of same. It also causes Leydig cell desensitization to LH, and we are therefore inducing primary hypogonadism while perhaps treating secondary hypogonadism. 250IU QD is an effective, and safe, dose. After all, we are merely replacing that which is lost to inhibition.
In my previous report I recommended 250IU of HCG twice per week for all TRT patients, taken the day of, along with the day before, the weekly test cyp injection. After looking at countless lab printouts, listening to subjective reports from patients, and learning more about HCG, I am now shifting that regimen forward one day. In other words, my test cyp TRT patients now take their HCG at 250IU two days before, as well as the day immediately previous to, their IM shot. All administer their HCG subcutaneously, and dosage may be adjusted as necessary (I have yet to see more than 350IU per dose required)."
An update to the Crisler HCG protocol
Receptor desensitization is positively correlated with hcg dose.
"In gonadotropin-desensitized Leydig cells, the extent and nature of the block in steroidogenesis was correlated with hCG dose and the subsequent degree of receptor loss."
Regulation of luteinizing hormone receptors and steroidogenesis in gonadotropindesensitized Leydig cells
Nice try but please reread the study you just posted first of all it was published in 1978 2nd of all those were done on rats although windstar rats have a similar metabloism to human the dosages change
In the study i provided in post it was a Human study of 741 males in 1991 and the study is directly speak about using HCG before and after testoserone use. 1 time injection 6000iu cause a 50% degradation of receptors meaning that even smaller doses will cause some type of degradation and if using HCG longer period of time creates even more degradation due to chronic use
Its like if u drink 4 drinks one day wont cause the same damage as drinking 4 drinks on a daily basis.
This is true with all drugs/Meds to the human body
Look man this is the last post I'm going to make. I have better activities to do with my time.You are doing your Nurses' Pledge of Service a huge disservice not to listen to my advice. I find it almost humorous that you think you know more than a TRT doctor with a PhD and years of experience.
Using hcg during PCT and not while on cycle is totally behind the timeline. See for yourself, visit other AAS forums and you will see that they stopped this practice 2-3 years ago.
Bro you dont know what you are reading again im proving that education is key to understandment
Key word AND(ii) suppression by Nandrolone
All these subject have received HCG AND NANDROLONE
You dont know what your talking about!!
Dude you're a nurse, not a endocrinologist or urologist. Being a nurse doesn't make one any more proficient at reading studies.
Not all the participants in that study received nandrolone, but all had their LH suppressed by hcg.
*Double post
Complete study for those who cant access the link he only copy and pasted what he wants to belive he read the study to fast cause he is dying to prove me wrong 2nd post that proves that my argument is still valid
OBJECTIVE: To determine the time-course of recombinant LH (rhLH) and hCG (rhCG) on blood and urine hormone profiles in men to develop effective tests to detect rhLH and rhCG doping.
DESIGN: Two randomized controlled studies with a 2 x 2 factorial design.
SETTING: Academic research centre.
PARTICIPANTS: Healthy male volunteers aged 18-45 years.
INTERVENTIONS: In the rhLH study, men were randomized into (i) either of two single doses of rhLH (75 IU or 225 IU), and (ii) suppression of endogenous LH and testosterone by nandrolone or no suppression. In the rhCG study, men were randomized into (i) either of two single doses of rhCG (250 or 750 microg), and (ii) suppression of endogenous LH and testosterone by nandrolone decanoate (ND) or no suppression. ND suppression comprised a single dose of 200 mg ND 3 days prior to, and in the rhCG study an additional dose 1 day after gonadotrophin injection.
MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES: Serum and urine hCG, LH, T, T : LH ratio, urine epitestosterone (E) and urine T : E ratio.
RESULTS: Neither rhLH dose produced a significant increase in serum or urine LH or T or in the T : E or T : LH ratios regardless of ND-induced suppression of endogenous LH and T. Nor did an even higher dose (750 IU) in three healthy men with unsuppressed gonadal axis. These findings were confirmed with two different commercial LH immunoassays together with adjustment for any influence of urine sediment and dilution. Both rhCG doses produced a steep, dose-proportional increase in serum and urine hCG with increases in serum and urine T and suppression of serum and urine LH, regardless of hCG dose. Serum but not urine T was lowered by ND suppression. The T : LH ratio showed a progressive increase unrelated to rhCG dose or ND suppression, whereas both rhCG and ND suppression minimally increased T : E ratio.
CONCLUSIONS: Both rhCG doses produce a striking increase in serum hCG and T with suppression of serum LH but, at single doses up to 750 IU, rhLH has no influence on serum or urine LH or T. Effective rhLH doping, which relies on a sustained increases in endogenous T, would require much higher and more frequent daily rhLH doses. Use of LH immunoassays optimized for serum to detect rhLH doping by urine LH measurement requires more standardization and validation and, at present, is unreliable. The T : LH ratio is, however, a useful screening test for hCG doping although its utility requires further evaluation.
The link works completely fine. There is nothing wrong with quoting a study if you provide access to the study.
I double posted because I entered the wrong security number.
An RN education includes learning the endocrine system and endocrine disorders
We are kinda like mini doctors