posted Thu, 12/13/2018 - 23:47
5883
Basic Letro help
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Gday fellas just wanted to ask for some basic rules regarding letro. Iv got a decent gyno on one side from using gear when I was an ignorant kid and now I want to have a go at shrinking it. Any help would be greatly appreciated
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Get bloods then evaluate, if hormones are stable I agree on tamox but I'd be inclined on higher dose such as 40mg first week then 20mg then drop down to 10 but it can take quite a while. Don't give up after 3-4 weeks if your serious about crushing it. 4 weeks get bloods again. Good luck
RustyhookerI wouldnt use letro at all. Unless your on a big cycle where blood test says that your estro is super high.
Nolva is much better at shrinking gyno. And youre not crushing your entire system just to do so. You do need normal levels of estro or heightened risks of heart issues.
Nolva 10mg a day. Nolva is selective. And it was made for breast issues. Blocks your e2 receptors and not crushing your system.
Basskilleronline has their version of letro nolva combo that older members used with success. Check there as well
Nolva is much more pleasant than letro. I couldn't imagine running a cycle of letro to knock out gyno. Talk about feeling like a trainwreck.
RustyhookerCreaky, lethargic and no pumps...yuck!
And an emotional lunatic lol
RustyhookerHahaha! Most definitely!
x2 on compound choice
RustyhookerTheres so many options. One of the old vets posted a letro nolva forum for on cycle and i just cant find it. Gave doses etc. I used nolva solo to shrink a small bump. But without bloods....its all a gamble
I know a couple of lads that love letro and others who can eat arimadex all day long, but not me.
I reckon, if you want to know what is best to keep estro from the titties, look to the people dealing with cancer... they use nolv first and letro maybe later... maybe
I think ur spot on in your choice
Unless you have ovaries Lynden, yes Letro is good.
But, here is the thing, there are two stages (in a way) of gyno. Stage 1 where it is immature and stage 2 where it matures and changes into a different type of tissue.
Once the gland develops, you have about.. meh... about a year to use exclusion therapy via an AI or Nolv. Beyond this, or thereabouts... the tissue becomes more fibrous and you cannot reduce it. This said if you load up on your estro and the stage 2 becomes inflamed, the ai or nolv will always reduce that, but growth will have occurred.
So, inflamed gyno can be... un-inflamed,,,, stage 1 can be treated perhaps, but stage 2 is permanent until the knife.
Knock that shit out before it gets to stage 2. Always have nolva on hand for that purpose. I have also been picking up bits and pieces about raloxafine and how it may be even more effective than nolva.
RustyhookerMaybe a thorough post on ralox would be good
Give me a time machine please lol!!
Yeah same here. I read two things on it, 1 said it pipped nolv and the other felt it was just about beaten by nolv.
Definitely worth a try!!!
jayiskFrom personal experience Nolva or Tamoxifen did nothing for the lump I had from gyno.
I tried Letro and the lump was completely gone and haven't had an issue since.
Only problem was i took too much for the first 3-4 days. Letro is strong and should be taken at low dose eod or every third day. it will crash your estrogen if not taken correctly.
Several of my friends with bad gyno also used Letro with success.
I'm more interested in what people that lift weights and take gear have to say. As opposed to academic studies.
When I got gyno I literally read thousands of posts on different forums and all the literature I could find on the subject. These were steroid forums so from people who actually take gear and lift weights. Tons of posts and forum topics about letro doing nothing for their gyno. I read maybe two posts about letro helping and that was when then gyno was fresh and very tiny and for those two posts dozens of people saying the opposite. For nolvadex helping gyno I read dozens and dozens of posts from vets ands novices alike that nolvadex helped or eliminated their gyno. As for your comment about medical studies I mean what do doctors know right? Those guys going to school for seven years and spending their life researching a subject just really don’t know shit do they.
Rustyhooker'comment about medical studies I mean what do doctors know right'
I dont got energy for debate today but ya might take that with a sip of soda. Drs knowing about hormones is a joke. Easiest answer is go read the trt forums. Dr prescribing 1 pin a month is normal. Because on paper it looks educational. Yet, every single trt person pins at least weekly. And lets not get into adex, hcg, etc for or during trt with a drs advice. Dozens of forums on folks having to prove e2 issues before adex was supplied.
Short story is the old vets worked hard here to pull both the med reports and bro use together to eliminate the bs. Sidenote too is the basic Dr with a 7 year degree studies hormones about a week tops. Unless we start debating the use of Endocrinologist which is a Phd. And studies in isolated, specialized aspects of their field.
I agree most doctors don’t know much at all about hormones. I’ve read countless horror stories. I also don’t give much clout to medical studies in most cases when it’s things like 5000 patients took fish oil and 30% saw improvements on lipid profile and so on. In those cases there’s 1000s of factors that could affect the study. In this study however patients took a drug and their gyno got better there’s not many outside factors that could affect that. Yes it was pubertal gyno but I still feel the study is relevant and that was really the point I was trying to make. In the world of AAS people with experience with AAS is where your going to find the solutions to most of the problems you will run into with gear
RustyhookerTrue true! Getting the ideals from reports and putting them into testing as guinea pigs.
I doubt if you'll find many GP's writing scientific papers. Unfortunately, the first stop for many of us is our GP and many of them never refer one to an endocrinologist. Preferring instead to use you as their personal lab rat.
There were times when working out my TRT regimen I felt I knew more than my GP did. Where did I get my understanding? Other TRT patient experiences backed by scientific papers... (and ultimately an endo doc)
RustyhookerI was really suprised as i entered into trt. I honestly thought it was an automatic to the endo by referral since its a fairly large hospital chain. I assumed, which was the first mistake. Luckily the trt forums and advices here greatly helped in decision making.
jayiskSo out of all the studies you post one on "pubertal gynecomastia"., are you going through puberty.
Definition of pubertal : of or relating to puberty.
I said in my experience and that off several of my friends letro worked for us. It may or may not work for you.
At this point you may need your bitch tit cut out.
With all this research you have done you still are asking questions about letro. Why dont you just take nolva and come back and tell us if it worked?
" what do doctors know right? Those guys going to school for seven years and spending their life researching a subject just really don’t know shit do they."
Are they expects in gyno and how it relates to gear use-age. or did they just do a study.
Again take whatever drug you choose for your gyno and let us know what works. Research articles are fine but it needs to be backed up by real life exp. in regards to training and gear use.
First off I didn’t ask any questions about letro your confusing me with the OP. I did take nolvadex and I did come back and tell everyone it worked. I don’t need my bitch tits cut out because I took nolvadex and it got rid of them :-). There’s tons of real life experience backed up by my statement that nolvadex works for gyno including my own.
jayiskYes I was wrong in confusing you with the OP. My mistake.
"I'm more interested in what people that lift weights and take gear have to say. As opposed to academic studies.'
Broscience over real science. Fair enough.
jayiskYes real life exp. Not broscience.
if you actually had interpersonal commutation skills and had the ability to make friend in real life.., not just on some forum.
That is why you love academic studies. Not able to talk to people that actually train and take gear.., pull a study out your ass.
Dont you life in a tin box.., or homeless hut. You get wifi in that tin box?
Grow up
jayiskYou're the last person to be giving advice on growing up..,but you will learn quick enough soon. Have fun on your vacation tuff guy.
jayisk"you basically bad mouthing the entire forum" really?
but you say you dont know me?
"I don't know you and I've never seen you around before but your typing comes across as jealousy towards others, I have no beef with you, your posts are aggressive and threatening"
If you are referring to this topic read though it and you will see the issues have been resolved. But i've seen your posts. the same as this one. you just jump in and make a cocky comment and never have anything positive to add to the board.
"take a chill and relax no one is out to get you" thats a strange comment. as first off this is the internet and in real life i dont start or get into trouble. And anyone that sees me in real life would not be stupid enough to run their mouth.
We dont know each other so lets keep it that way. Unless it is about something positive or helpful to one another.
And also to you have a merry Christmas and happy new year.
Cheers Mate!
No worries, I appreciate and respect that response. Peace.
6 of my friends and I caught a cold at about the same time one year.
We all took the A train home on a Tuesday. A day or two later we all got better.
Damned if that wasn't the case every time. So if you get a cold, take the A train on Tuesday. You'll feel better in a day or two.
I'm more interested in what anecdotal evidence has to say. As opposed to academic studies.
jayiskthere are members that actually walk the walk and talk the talk. Those are the members whose studies I pay attention to. Makwa is one of those members.
He will research a study, and then apply what he can to real life training, diet , and gear usage. Makwa still trains and uses gear. And doesnt turn into a punk snowflake if someone disagrees with him.
And he actually posts stuff that is helpful to all the eroids members.
This other snowflakes just post whatever study because for some reason they think they are the smartest guys on the forum and just want their "ego's" stroked.
Yeah, the first place i go to when i want to learn how to get stronger in the bench, D/L, squat and what gear and dosages i should be using i look for "academic studies."
Not talk to people in the gym that are strong and keep breaking PR's.
Of course! that's where I have always gone wrong! Every time I had a cold - I took the WEDNESDAY A train - no wonder my cold took longer to cure. I love this anecdotal stuff - pure gold! Thanks - it explains so much..
jayiskmaybe a refresher course on what anecdotal means you pompous ass since you had to be corrected the last time regarding research methods.
Ozninjaguy 3 months ago @jayisk
Empirical evidence and bro-science are the same thing - both are unsubstantiated, non-scientific, subjective opinions...
reply
kodiakGRRL 3 months ago @Ozninjaguy
lol you had to burst his balloon I see. however empirical evidence is evidence gathered through experimentation not to be confused with anecdotal evidence or bro science .....
The question at hand is whether your observation was anecdotal or empirical. You did not elaborate enough on how you came to your conclusion.
In my analogy, if I took the train any other days and got well, took a different train, or no train at all, and got well, then my anecdotal evidence becomes more empirical as I conclude the cold will go away on its own after a few days.
Someone made a rather benign comment to something you wrote and you've gone off the deep end. You could have come back with a comment closer to what you meant, with I suspect would be similar to the later comment you posted, "Research articles are fine but it needs to be backed up by real life exp."
jayiskYes, want you say makes sense but there was an underlying issue.
In a topic that was taken down Oz decided to be disrespectful to me and in this thread instead of just coming back with a witty or sarcastic reply..thinks he is going to threaten me.
i have avoided Oz cause i know he has srs health issues and with him having low to no total testosterone that does impair your judgement.
On a tren cycle are you mate? Or just a fuckhead in general? I'm guessing both. BTW - yes - I love academia and reading research papers - it's called acquiring knowledge, which I pretty much value far above interacting with morons such as yourself. "Not able to talk to people that actually train and take gear." Well chump - I was training when you were 10 years old...so please - don't even go there, otherwise you will look even more stupid. Tin hut? Well - I own my own house, have a car and 3 motorcycles, have no debts and live off a private income fund - how about you? What's it like in your dustbin, Oscar? Anyway - have a great Xmas (and please don't troll me or I will burn you every chance I get cunt, and it wont be pretty - peace?...it's up to you).
jayiskits funny you and little click of circle jerk buddies and the studies you post.
Its funny how if someone doesnt agree with you guys you turn into punk ass snowflakes.
I can post studies on the grieving process since you are cycling through that.
You are a senior citizen who can deal with aging , can no longer train the same , and cant take steroids due to a serious health condition you have.
you WERE training when i was 10. But thats past tense. I can power lift and take whatever gear i feel like. get over it. "On a tren cycle are you mate?"
No but i could if i wanted to something you cant mate.
"I will burn you every chance I get cunt, and it wont be pretty "
you pathetic punk. you're only tuff in your own head and on a keyboard. think you can actually threaten me.
Similar to when you made some bullshit comment about talking shit to a younger guy in the gym.
He prob. respects the elderly that is why he didnt smack the shit out of you. and if he did smack or even push you there is a good chance you would have went into cardiac arrest.
" I love academia and reading research papers " great now how can you apply that to real life?
It's been kind of fun dude, and even though I am retired, I do have better things to do than waste my time reading your pitiful, self-absorbed, paranoid, ego-driven shit. Oh, I was 'disrespectful' to you in a thread that has since been taken down. Respect is earned, not demanded, and so far you have only earned disdain from me. The thread was taken down - I don't remember any insult, I'm sure none of the other members do, it's not up on the forums any more, if it indeed existed - it's only in your head now. You are the one going over and over in your mind about perceived slights and insults. I'm surprised and flattered that you have gone through all the effort to read my posts - it's a little obsessive and creepy, but thanks anyway - I think. I know you only trolled them so you could find some mistakes - yes: I flipped off a quick post about 'empirical evidence' which was incorrect and I owned up to it (which you neglected to post as well). Don't fret, I self-flagellate over that mistake on the monthly anniversary of that error. Also, don't feel insulted (again), but I have absolutely NO interest is visiting any of your previous posts.
My 'click of circle jerk buddies' - are you talking about the guys who actually bother to look for, read, summarise and post articles about research that they think might be useful to other members? If so, then I would rather talk to them than an idiot who reads nothing, knows fuck-all and argues against research based upon unsubstantiated anecdotal 'experience' as their only defence- - and then gets all offended when someone comments. Finally, in truth, the only pathetic person here is you. Really. Take a good hard look in the mirror, and if you see a man standing there - it's not a mirror. My last line in my previous post to you was: "Peace? It's up to you' - obviously you want to keep going - because any attention for you is 'good' attention, but I'm done with you - my coffee is now cold - you are not worth that wasted coffee or any more effort. See ya chum.
jayiskI'm not even going to waste my time with your bullshit.
I"ll leave it at that because you have nothing witty to say. Just play the victim and that I'm trolling you.
I honestly hope your health improves and you can back to training the way you liked to.
Cheers mate
Actually - I don't think that I have played the victim, and haven't accused you of trolling me. I just requested that you don't.
Thanks for the training comment. I will take it as being sincere. I can't train like I used to and it's hard to come to that realisation, especially when you get older. The way I used to train is a contributing factor to my present health issues - so I just do what I can now-a-days.
Let's put all this behind us. We are both gym guys and essentially have the same interests, even if we do disagree on some aspects.
Have a great Xmas.
(btw - I thought the 'self flagellation' was witty ;-) )
jayiskSounds good to me.
And yes i was being sincere about your health and training.
I didnt have to search through your history as I've read most of what you already posted from just reading through topics on the forum as they post.
Have a happy and healthy Christmas.
You both are clever fuckers, I'll give you that! And yes, you're both on the same damn team. We're all here to help each other make the best informed decisions that we can make. You're both two of the good guys on this site, each of you in your own way promoting BEING SAFE. Thank you both. We all collectively need as much damn help as we can get.
Oz, well done on your "self flagellation on the monthly anniversary" comment. Dropped me. Well played.
Jayisk, your passion and fire is contagious. It's good to know you're a fellow brother of the iron. I'd hate for a guy like you to be plotting bank heists. Shit would blow up in grand fashion. It's better for all of humanity that you are the type of dude to focus your power on saying FUCK YOU to gravity over and over. Pick shit up, put shit down, repeat ''til we drop.
I like the old saying, "the first quarter of our lives, we do what we're told. The second quarter, we do what we must. The third quarter, we do what we want. The last quarter, we do what we can."
This "getting older" shit aint for the birds. The weight room is the only "slow down aging" pill I've ever witnessed. Peeps that lift, not just "exercise," but really put serious weight loads on their skeletal muscle, all seem to age with much more grace and health than those who don't. May we all be strong, as much as our bodies are able. Cheers brothers.
Good post mate - thanks for the input. +1
jayiskThanks Zeus. Honestly I hate getting into heated arguments with members that are good dudes.
It waste so much energy and time being negative.
I would rather be somebody's friend.
But like with a family member sometimes things need to come out and take there course to improve the relationship.
Of course like everyone else I enjoy getting in on the roasting of a disrespectful troll when they pop up.
cheers mate!
Protein is right - Tamoxifen is the best and has been medically proven to reduce gyno. Letro has a slightly different action, and from my reading is not used for gyno (1). Also, it's a very strong drug and you can crash your Estrogen very quickly, which, might sound good - but once you stop, the Estrogen will rebound resulting in a worsening of your problems. The only drug for actually destroying Estrogen is Exemestane (Aromasin) - it is classified as a suicidal AI. Of course your body will produce more Estrogen, but Exemestane is very effective at lowering excessive circulating Estrogen so that normal levels can be restored.
You should get blood work done to determine your current Test, Estro and Prolactin levels and then take those tests to an Endocrinologist for proper assessment and treatment - just jumping onto some Tamoxifen without knowing your hormone balance/levels is not a good idea.
Thank you mate
Everyone I’ve ever known who’s gotten gyno including myself has treated it with success with nolvadex. Letro may help slightly but all the literature show tamoxifen and raloxefen are going to be your best options. Here’s a study I posted awhile back about raloxifene and tamoxifen Eleminating gyno after its been around for years. At this point letro isn’t going to do anything for your gyno except crash your e2 and wreck your lipid profile. Get some nolvadex!
Beneficial effects of raloxifene and tamoxifen in the treatment of pubertal gynecomastia.
Lawrence SE, et al. J Pediatr. 2004.
Authors
Lawrence SE1, Faught KA, Vethamuthu J, Lawson ML.
Author information
1
Department of Pediatrics, University of Ottawa, Ontario, Canada. [email protected]
Citation
J Pediatr. 2004 Jul;145(1):71-6.
Abstract
OBJECTIVES: To assess the efficacy of the anti-estrogens tamoxifen and raloxifen in the medical management of persistent pubertal gynecomastia.
STUDY DESIGN: Retrospective chart review of 38 consecutive patients with persistent pubertal gynecomastia who presented to a pediatric endocrinology clinic. Patients received reassurance alone or a 3- to 9-month course of an estrogen receptor modifier (tamoxifen or raloxifene).
RESULTS: Mean (SD) age of treated subjects was 14.6 (1.5) years with gynecomastia duration of 28.3 (16.4) months. Mean reduction in breast nodule diameter was 2.1 cm (95% CI 1.7, 2.7, P <.0001) after treatment with tamoxifen and 2.5 cm (95% CI 1.7, 3.3, P <.0001) with raloxifene. Some improvement was seen in 86% of patients receiving tamoxifen and in 91% receiving raloxifene, but a greater proportion had a significant decrease (>50%) with raloxifene (86%) than tamoxifen (41%). No side effects were seen in any patients.
CONCLUSION: Inhibition of estrogen receptor action in the breast appears to be safe and effective in reducing persistent pubertal gynecomastia, with a better response to raloxifene than to tamoxifen. Further study is required to determine that this is truly a treatment effect.- there’s the highlights from the study I hope I used proper protocol by including the authors. This study is public record
Thank you very much mate for taking the time to shed some light on the issue. It’s very obvious to run bloods as your first point of call but also it’s impossible to try and find a general practioner who is willing to offer concrete advice on these matters when it comes to self altering ones hormones levels. You are the reason these sites are so invaluable to the intermediate bodybuilder and I thank you again for constructive reply.
+1 for understanding the importance of getting blood work done, first and foremost.