TRT and aromatization
After 3 years of fighting various symptoms, I finally went to a TRT clinic and got tested. Most of my numbers were in the normal range:
Age: 44
Test: 573 ng/dL
LH: 4.9 mlU/mL
Prolactin: 10.1 ng/mL
Estradial: 24.8 pg/mL
SHBG: 64.3 nmol/L (High)
Calculated Free T: 7.52 ng/dL (Low)
According to the dr, while all my numbers look decent, my SHBG was high which was binding the T and causing symptoms.
Protocol:
HCG .25 twice weekly
Test Cyp .45 twice weekly
AI: 1mg twice weekly (I started at .5 but had to up it in response to nipple sensitivity)
My goal is to not use an AI at all. This is where I need the community's help.
First: General feedback on numbers and course.
Second: protocol suggestions for splitting the dose further to reduce the need for an AI. (Assuming you did not just blast me for even starting TRT.)
Update:
I appreciate the input and will investigate and test natural ways to reduce SHBG. I will say this, in the short time I have been on TRT, my wife, kids, and coworkers have all said they noticed a difference in my attitude, energy, and irritability. And none of them knew. Clearly, something it out of sorts. But if I can achieve the same results without TRT, I would prefer that. Hence the first question on course in the post.
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This is the type of thing that irritates me about clinics and doctors nowadays, it's like they get paid to push paper. You walk in complaining about stubbing your toe and you walk out with prescriptions for heart medication and blood pressure pills. Not only are they prescribed but it becomes a lifetime medicine that other doctors are afraid to take you off of so they let you stay on them even if you don't truly need them. Then you become dependent on them when you didn't need any in the first place. You just needed a toe brace but since you were in pain your blood pressure was up and your heart was beating weird. You have to use common sense with the doctors, and get a second opinion before taking your medications.
In your case, I can't see how any doctor in the world would put you on Testosterone with a 573 of total test and a CALCULATED free test. And please let me stress this to you.....
THE CALCULATED FREE AND BIOAVAILABLE TESTOSTERONE ARE RELIABLE IN MOST CLINICAL SITUATIONS, BUT SHOULD NOT BE RELIED UPON IN SITUATIONS WITH POTENTIAL MASSIVE INTERFERENCE BY STEROIDS BINDING TO SHBG; e.g. in women during pregnancy, in men during treatment inducing high levels of DHT or mesterolon.
The argument can be made that you don't have massive interference and thus negating that warning but he should have run more tests instead of dropping 3 scripts on you that are life altering and forever. In the very least you should be getting a second opinion, which might be what you are doing here, my suggestion to you is to jump off the Test (unless you want to stay on it for a lifetime), wait for your body to return to homeostasis and then see somebody that doesn't work in a clinic. If you like the Test and want to stay on it then drop the HCG, it is only increasing your Estrogen and isn't doing you any good.
But as you get older doctors will try to push their pills on you and you have to make the decision if they truly are helping you or if they are just placating your complaints. Best of luck though. Thank you for posting.
edit: I didn't see this was an old post that was bumped. My bad.
Dumbell001I started out doing two days week injections. Mon am, thur pm. I was suffering from itchy burning nipples. My doc then switched me to sub q injections everyday and I very rarely need to use an aromatase inhibitor. I've even been able to increase my dosage. Hope it helps
Your test levels are really good imo. I just started trt, my numbers were 195. I am not looking forward to having to pin the rest of my life. I’m gonna try to see if I can get test undecanate so I won’t have to pin as much. Good luck and I would rethink the trt.
Honestly... It takes time to get dialed in...bloodwork will be the key indicator and let you know when it's time to hold AI and keep on hand. You're nowhere near that time frame, yet. Aromatization of test is individualized, too. Everybody is different. Shut yourself down with exogenous test for 20 plus weeks, continue what you are doing, then manage your condition via BW every six months. Watch your E2 trends. Does this sound like a plan for you? You still have time to stop and not be too messed up!
What's the dosage of your injections?
MedDx,
I was given a .45mg dosage twice weekly for protocol. And within 18-24 hours of dosage I could feel the estrogen crank up (nipple issues). I started with .5mg of Anastrozole 24 hours after dosage and then had to add .5mg 48hrs after dosage. This caused my E to drop to zero which ushered in all sorts of problems. I finally figured out a 1/4 tab AI the day of injection followed by a 1/4 tab 24 hours later stopped the E from spiking and then crashing. However, as many have pointed out, I need to pump the brakes and see if I can work on my natural levels a little more. I will say, my symptoms prior to treatment were very similar to my symptoms when my E was too high or too low. (no, I do not have blood work, just a gut feel based on nipples and AI dosage.)
I have no idea why you went to TRT with 573 Test. HCG.25? And with Test and HCG you will need an AI. Seems you got some things a lil messed up here.
Tonngkat Ali will raise free testo
Now, you do nt have to trt for life.
You are welcome.
573 and trt? If it was me i would see if i could get to the 500s again. Idk
As a guy that's on the do it yourself TRT program, I gotta say that I'm really surprised to see you on trt with those nice natty levels.
Did he offer to keep you natty?
No, they did not attempt to keep me natty and reduce SHBG. I am going to do some research, put together a mini protocol to try and reduce SHBG and stop this train before it gets too far down the track.
Good plan Neo.
Take the blue pill
RustyhookerSo you went to a quack in a box clinic. You had normal readings except free test. And quack gets paid to screw up your natural body. Smh....
Free test could be high body fat. But now youre trt and ruined those great natural numbers.
https://www.eroids.com/forum/general/general-talk/natural-routes-to-lowe...
Classic TRT clinic. Get you in the door and pump test into someone with perfectly fine levels and ruin their HPTA just so they can make a buck. These clinics are what give legit TRT a bad rap.
DobermannSounds about right.needle in his ass for life.if i could get 500natural i would never touch a needle again:)lol
Rusty,
I am starting to agree on the dr comment. As for body fat, that is not an issue. Thanks for the link.
RustyhookerGood luck sir!
Bro I would just try some proviron and get tested again in a month or2... that's probably all you need.. and why is there no age in your stats. .. how old are you??
Just because your numbers are all "normal" doesn't mean you're optimum. You know your body & mind. If you have a real medical need for testosterone, you'll know within a month or two of TRT.
If it's simply an issue in your mind, you gotta be honest with yourself. Do you want to be a slave to the pin for the rest of your life? It sucks. Every guy here that has to jab themselves with a needle on a weekly basis will tell you the same. (Forget these idiots that say, "I like pinning!" They're not you. It sucks.)
You'll hear it over and over here, but the keys to getting your test up and feeling better is always:
- Reduce stress
- Get good rest/sleep
- Eat REAL food (real meat & veggies, not processed)
- Lift smart
There's a reason why diet & exercise are last on that list. If you don't dial in stress & sleep, you're fucked, even if you jab yourself with magical testosterone. It won't fix shit. You'll just be a wrecked dude with an ever worse messed up endocrine system.
I don't say this to instill fear. On the contrary. Fear comes from the unknown. You already know your predicament, you know what changes you can try, and you're a 44 year old man, so you know that your body will take a long time to adjust to life changes.
I realize that you've taken the plunge for now, but you're not too far in to not try other avenues before pin slavery. Just food for thought.
Zues, thanks for the feedback.
I do get at least 8 hours every night, do not drink, eat 6 meals a day supper clean, and have been lifting for 13 years religiously at least 3 days a week, but mostly 4 days. Where I fall down miserably is on controlling the stress. I am one of those people that is constantly worried about tomorrow, no matter how good today is.
I am only 3 weeks in and I can already say I dread the idea of a lifetime pin. This was a big reason why the clinic I went to has an HCG component. I want to keep my natty up as much as possible, with the idea to see how I feel on the protocol. One of the nice things I am already seeing is a significant decrease in mood swings and irritability. To give you an idea, my kids gave me a card recently they made, when I asked what it was they said it was me, "an angry business man." I wish I was joking.
That's a candid share with us. +1 for being authentic. Thank you for being vulnerable and real. You'll help other men in your shoes when they read your posts. Your honesty speaks volumes to your character.
No judgement from me, brother. I'm a father of two elementary aged kiddos, and I'm having the time of my life. I can only imagine that you're also loving being a daddy, but when your kids see THAT image of you being "an angry businessman" instead of "my dad laughs all the time!" image, then that's a rough spiritual place to be.
Stress is a killer, brother. You know this. You're not a 22 year old trying to get swol. You're a grown man, trying to be the healthiest and best version of you that you can be.
You've clearly got your diet & exercise components figured out, much respect! (I'm jealous. Well done.)
Neo, without knowing you or your specifics, it looks like you've got one thing left to dial in, and that's your mind.
You're ahead of most men, and you've accomplished more than most men will ever do in their whole lives. You know who I'm talking about. Many men never even look at a dumbbell, let alone hit the gym with any consistency, ever. You're crushing it.
Let's get your mind figured out! In a years time, your kids won't remember "the angry businessman." They'll only know the daddy who smiles and laughs a lot.
Clearly, it's not like you walk around on egg shells all day waiting to blow up. I'm guessing that you probably operate a little hotter than most men do, but I also would bet that when you DO lose your temper, you go big?
I'm guessing you stress about shit that's most likely out of your control too. No one eats as clean and regimented as you would stress about their own workout, or their own stuff, it's always gonna be about people at work, or shit that's simply not in your circle of influence.
My guess is that you also know this, and you beat yourself up for it. I've been in your shoes, and probably walk in your shoes more than I should. I'm really, really trying to be a more positive person, to let the small stuff go, and to enjoy life as it is.
I'll plant this one seed in your brain if you'll allow it.
They say that we rarely believe stories from strangers, we often believe stories from our friends, but we ALWAYS believe the stories that we tell ourselves.
If you tell yourself, "I'm a piece of shit! I should've gotten ABC done today and tomorrow I gotta finish XYZ, blah blah," then you'll start believe that story that you are indeed a piece of shit.
Neo, you're not a piece of shit. Far from it! FAR FUCKING FROM IT! You're one of the good guys, dammit! Sure, good people do dumb things occasionally, but not always. You're only dumb if you don't learn from it. Grow, adjust, move on.
Adapt and abide. It's all we can do.
The only way I can help is to offer you good mojo and to encourage the shit out of you to eliminate negative self talk. If you've fucked up in your life and need forgiveness, seek it. Then, here's the hard part, forgive yourself for the pain you've caused others. Commit to being a source of strength for others. Just like lifting, it takes the cumulative effect of months and months to build into something awesome, but you'll get there.
This aint no hippie dippie bullshit either. We're men. We're protectors. We're strong. The older we get, our strength doesn't belong to us. It belongs to the people we love, and if we're REAL men, we give it freely with no strings attached.
Tell yourself these things. "I'm not a piece of shit. I'm a good man. I'm a provider. I'm a protector. I'm a lover, and god help the fool who wants to fight, cuz I'm a fighter when I need to be." That simple. Rinse lather and repeat, day in and day out. Cuz it's all true, and we need to hear the truth, everyday. Don't just listen to Zeus tell you this shit cuz you won't believe it down deep. You gotta tell yourself this story, cuz you'll believe the story teller.
If I'm out of line, or totally off base, please forgive me. I simply see a lot of my own self struggles in your comment above, and it's taken me a decade to get to where I'm at right now. I was hurting for a long time. I'm better! Not 100%, but fucking way better than I was. I was LOW. I hated it. I'm never going back, not if I can help it, ever again.
We're all a work in progress, and I'm no different. I'm just a dude on a forum who sees another man struggling. Neo, if I can do my part by lifting you up, even if it's just long enough so that you can see your own light for a few moments and be reminded of the awesome person that you're destined to be, I'll have done enough with this long ass reply. You're not alone. None of us are. ZeusM has your back.
Zues,
I am not sure where to begin. Your advice is appreciated, on point, and the fact that you took as much time as you did speak volumes. I do spend too much time beating myself up and worrying about things outside my control. As others on this thread have pointed out, my problem is mental not physical and I need to begin looking inward for the solution, not to the bottle.
This has been a lifelong struggle, but the demands of work, family and life have been particularly difficult the last few years. It happens to coincide with a relocation which took out all the close supportive relationships outside of my wife. And while I can and do tell her everything, at the same time there is hesitation. Why, because men are the strong ones, the protectors, the rock. The irony, as I struggle I become more introverted and reluctant to go out and do, which only makes the problem worse.
My wife tells me I can be as stubborn as a mule. It is time I used some of that stubbornness to refuse to be a victim of my mind. It is easier said than done. Thank you.
I am so grateful for this site. It changed my life for the better. It continues to change my life for the better. I'm very grateful as well that I get to pay the good mojo forward.
Whether you needed (need?) a "pep talk" or not, your grace is much appreciated. I get passionate about helping other men see their true power. Not just "power over people" or whatever, but the inner power we need to take care of the ones we love. Our tribes & families help, but ultimately it's up to us.
Men aren't bullet proof. We're just as vulnerable as women or children. The difference is, we are simply way, way stronger.
(To the females reading this, THIS DOES NOT MEAN YOU ARE WEAK! Far from it. You're strong, don't forget it! We men are simply way stronger than even we internally know.)
Not just physically stronger, but emotionally and mentally. For highly motivated men like us who have the discipline to consistently hit the gym week in and week out, it seems our biggest hurdle in life is to get over our own bullshit. Life throws obstacles in our way and we just roll with it. But if our brains toss an obstacle in our way, even if it's imaginary, it can crush us.
This doesn't mean things are insurmountable. It simply means that we gotta ask for help, change our plan of attack, etc. Getting feedback on this post, and on eroids in general, hopefully will help fuel your fire to continue to fight, not just exist.
So all your numbers except shbg are in range. Yet you decided to just self trt even though there is no need to do so. On top of that you are having a binding problem and want to try and add more of the problem instead of finding a solution to the issue?
No.
Just No. Find the solution to the problem, don't fucking add to it. Better yet come back and see us after your protocol and let us know how well it worked out for you
Did a quick search and found that boron, zinc, magnesium, and vitamin D can help. I take zinc and magnesium already, but will do more research on boron and vitamin D. Will also talk with my Dr on their thoughts.
Irish,
To clarify, I did not self TRT, unless you are inferring the men's aging clinics are just pushing test.
I appreciate your input. Do you have any stones I might look under to help find my problem?
From my experience to lower aromatisation you need to lower your Testosterone weekly dosage. Obviously your body is very sensitive converting process and even low dose of Testosterone raises your estradiol levels.
If you want to stop taking Ai’s, I would do it this way - lower test, and do blood work again in about 3-4 weeks.
Also I would check prolactin levels too, elevated estradiol levels sometimes tend to raise prolactin levels and that could be the cause of the side effects you’re experiencing
Considering cypionate is such a long ester, splitting it in to smaller dosages will not make any difference.
he is in the normal range, he wants to self medicate and replace his natural normal range of test with synthetic to put him right back to the same level thinking that will fix his binding issue.
Think you should put your age in your stats
I will add it, but it was in the question to save the community time in looking it up.
Hope it works out for you buddy. All esle fails. Just jugular some tren base.
Not funny.
you might cough