I will never listen to a doctor ever again...
Hello,
180cm
65-70 kg over the last 6 years (fat gain and loss)
I have been struggling for years trying to build muscles naturally working my ass off following professional physichians workout and diets. Nothing worked for me to build muscles since I started when I was 18 (now 24.) I didn't know what wrong with me as I have been working out with my friends at the gym and we have always been obsessed about physiques and dieting. The sad story I want to share is that by today, all my friends are looking in excellent shapes, huge, defined, and like magazine ready looking bodies except me :'). I am still the scrawny guy with lots of abdominal fat and loose muscles. Through out the years I thought my friends were juicing behind my back but then I knew its all in my head. It's just me that is wrong and I started to visit some doctors when I got 20 until they recommended me to seek an endocrinologist and I did. I have done blood tests and results were:
Testosterone = 6.1 nmol/L Reference Range (6.0 - 27.1) nmol/L
Estradiol = 249 nmol/L Reference Range (73 - 275) nmo/L
Prolactin = 525 nmol/L Reference Range (57 - 281) nmol/L H
and here is the shocking part, my doctor reaction to that was... put on her glasses, stared at the results... emmm ehmmm,... "I don't see any issues there..." and the other doctor said "well, I guess the prolactin is high?" my doctor replied "not really its just a slight increase and it could be an effect of physical stress or emotional stress." then they told me just go and don't think about it cause its nothing concerning. I went to another doctor and said the same thing.
I felt hopeless and started to read on the internet a lot about everything possible that could be the cause.. for years. I know now that for my age, those results are shame! those are probably okay for a man aged 60 and above. Those Reference Ranges for the blood tests are reference intervals collected from men aged 18 to 70 years old. My age should be at least around 20 nmol/L and higher! mine is at the edge of the low testosterone values. F**k me for listening to what the doctors said to me. I wasted years at the gym not gaining over 1 pound of muscles due to how bad my endocrine system works. I have always been ashamed to take my shirt off in front of my friends who have reached their goals. I decided to start juicing as soon as possible. I also have developed natural gyno since last year and it has started hurting and itching and I will take Pramipexole or Caber along with estrogen inhibitors. I did a lot of reading and I know that naturally my body is prone to develop even worse case gyno while juicing and being very sensitive to aromatizable juices. No doctor allowed or prescribed me a HRT. I just can't realized how doctors can be so dumb and careless for their patients.
Whats your thoughts guys? experts? doctors?
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Have you looked into Clomid? I've been looking into it for the past month.
Check this out: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22044663
Outcomes of clomiphene citrate treatment in young hypogonadal men: "Long-term follow-up of CC treatment for HG shows that it appears to be an effective and safe alternative to testosterone supplementation in men wishing to preserve their fertility."
Run this past your doctor/specialist.
Here's my thread (no one seemed that interested in the idea):
https://www.eroids.com/forum/general/general-talk/clomid-only-cycle
Baldur2630Get it into your head that the medical profession doesn't want healthy people it isn't in their interests. The doctors have all been well and truly brainwashed at med school, STEROIDS ARE BAD! Why they might even stop you from visits to your doc and consuming tons of medications with horrific side effects. Anything is bad if you abuse it, but doctors have been told that ALL steroids are bad.
Just think about it. Every year, several hundred more doctors are released from med school to add to the mass already out there. They need to make a living. The hierarchy of the medical profession (all of whom have massive shares in the pharmaceutical conglomerates) want to keep doctors busy but this means keeping the great unwashed sick enough to keep the doc busy and keep the cash registers of the pharma conglomerates ringing. So Testosterone and HGH are BAD, BAD, BAD. whilst things like Prozac with its myriad sides and birth control pills that stop testosterone production in women causing loss of libido are GOOD, GOOD, GOOD. So churn out more and more doctors and more and more drugs, whilst the birth rate keeps going down every year, because plastics and pills and even sun creams, lower testosterone production.
My wife asked for bloods and asked for total and free testosterone, her fucking idiot doctor told her that women don't have testosterone and refused to ask for it on the labs.
I told my doc I hadn't had sex for six years or even anything remotely resembling and erection. His answer was " why would anyone at your age want a erection?". Just because I was 73. I demanded a full blood test and I was told that men don't have estrogen or prolactin. FOUR doctors later I got sent to an endocrinologist, at least that's what he called himself. He told me that my free testosterone was almost nil, but because I was 73 and my total testosterone was 484 that he couldn't prescribe anything, but I should really have testosterone injections.
I asked him "what kind of testosterone?" He had to look on his computer BECAUSE HE DIDNT KNOW WHAT KINDS THERE WERE AS HE HAD NEVER NEEDED TO PRESCRIBE IT BEFORE!!!
Total testosterone is MEANINGLESS. You need to check your FREE testosterone, your SHBG, estradiol, Vit D, prolactin and IGF-1. Check TSH as well.
Be prepared to have to do the research, ask questions on forums like this and DO IT YOURSELF. Fuck the doctors.
Thanks for the info. It's really sad that your doctor is even worse than the ones I ran into. I hope you are doing well on your own and have your problem solved by now.
Baldur2630Gym work gets better every week, maximum weights go up every week. Sex just about every day. I feel like I'm 25 again and getting better every day.
Woah
I'm really happy to hear that!
Then I should do my own research to know what to do about my case.. Would you mind PM me your stack or what you are using?
Thanks!
Baldur2630I would love to do that but for some mysterious reason, we aren't allowed to PM until some specified conditions are met.
The only thing I can suggest is that you look on some of the other Forums that don't have these rules. I use the same pseudonym. I think if I even mention the name of one it will get censored. But I'm on quite a few! PM me from one of these.
lol.. why would the mention of another board get censored?? click on his name and below the profile pic you click on send a friend request.. I am on several boards and that is quite common as a practice to prevent unwanted messages
Send him a Friend request and then he has to accept it. Then you can send a pm.
Baldur2630I would have thought that it was the other way round!
Low T at 24 sounds very unlikely unless you burned yourself out already from juice...or have some undiagnosed medical problem. Gyno is usually caused by too much test, unless youre elderly, then the opposite is true.
RustyhookerHis pix.
https://www.eroids.com/pics/current-body..#comment-2015302
You're almost 5' 11" and you weigh between 143-154 lbs.? I can' t ethically support self administered TRT since I'm on TRT and I'm also now sterile as well. That is rare but it does happen. I can't ethically support your use of steroids as a member of this community because you are too young.
However, bro, if you are unable to find a doctor who is willing to work with you, you are on your own so to speak. There is plenty of information on this website for you to use. You are welcome to use it. I would first deal with the gyno issue if it were me. I see you do not live in the United States based on the measurement system used in your blood work. I don't know how easy your National Health System makes it to treat this kind of issue. In the US you could walk into one of our "rejuvenation clinics" and get some resolution. But that would be an out of pocket expense.
When you finally figure out what you want to do, you can certainly send me a message (PM). I would be happy to at least take a look at it. It's important you stay safe. The problem I have is verifying you are telling the truth. New members will say just about anything to get this community to help them do what they want.
Posting your actual blood test would be nice. And the information that Rusty is requesting below as well.
X2!! I can't comment any further
I know its hard to believe my stats and I always look fit to people but when I take of my shirt they see all the fatty curves and estrogenic water retention or puffiness. I would really like to post pictures of the blood tests can't seem to find a way to do it here. I'll try uploading them on my profile in minutes. And thanks for offering the help really!
https://www.eroids.com/node/add/gearpics
Choose category Lab tests
For picture of yourself chose category Self Shots
uploaded.
Bro, the Test is 11.4 not 6.1 What is your BF% bro? For you to have such elevated E2 it's gotta be pretty damn high. You have a picture of yourself with your shirt off you could upload? Mask your face of course.
Yes I stated this is the highest I could record using T-booster + DAA + E-blocker herbs such as DIM and bla boa... last before that test which was around a month before, it was 6.1 and I have papers to upload if necessary. I just thought I would let you know my current stats.
I get really nervous showing my body.. I just hate it. Nothing to be proud of to show to people.
I went one of those pharmacies with the scale you step on and hold. It says my current Fat Percentage is 24% and other times it says 16% and I can't find better options to measure around where I live. I bought SKULPT Aim to do it myself and see.. it says that my whole body parts are around 11 to 15% however on my belly it says 34% which I find stupid. I swear to god I followed professional dietitians and trainers and they were shocked how after months I haven't changed much.. they just don't know whats causing this.
Please post up your diet and routine.
Also have you really been training for 6 years or you started training 6 years ago but only stay with it for a month or so?
Do you use any drugs? Reason I ask cause you say high E2 and prolactin.
I have been working out at the gym for 6 years almost non stop except if I had to travel or feel too stressed doing other things. Max I have been away from gym is 1 month only and only once or twice. I don't use any drugs and no other health issues.
I changed my diet and workout routine every 3-4 months.
I workout 5 to 6 days a week allowing my body to recover during off days supplementing it with anti-catabolic supplements.
I do:
1 day chest/biceps 4 to 5 exercises each.
1 day Legs 12 exercise thighs and calves.
1 day shoulders/Triceps 4 to 5 exercises each.
1 day Back/Lats 4 to 5 exercises each.
1 day abs and obliques.
1 day 2 hours cardio divided during the day 1 hour each.
1 day off for sure!
(formation changes every few months)
my diet is 40/40/20 out of 100.
around 250g protein/ 250g Carbs/ 70-100g healthy fats.
around 3k calories.
I also did a restricted diet and cut off fat to 10-20g a day for a month to see if changes can happen and it only made me skin, fats, and bones no muscles. (this was a suggestion of a trainer)
I have increased my calories to around 4K calories but I was gaining only fat.
All calories are from divided 5-6 meals during the day.
At your stage and this comes from personal experince it would highly benedical to decrease your volume and increase your frequency when it comes to your workouts. What I mean is instead of 20 sets for chest once a week do 10 sets twice a week. These once a week splits work best for guys moving heavy ass weight that puts a lot of strain on the CNS and muscle which takes longer to recover then someone at your stage. Your muscles don't need 7 days to recover your not moving enough weight to put thay amount of strain on them or your CNS. This is what I did my first year and a half lifting and I put on about 50lbs. Not all quality but a lot of it was. And my strength skyrocketed. At that weight I aimed for about 3200 cals ed and that got me up to about 180. Were all different tho. That's my advice. Think about it with once a week your hitting everything 52 tomes a year as opposed to 104 times a year. Even to this day I'll use that split for 4-6 weeks or so it still works but I take longer to recover now so it's harder. I did a push pull legs twice a week but looking back I probably needed more rest. Look into a good upper lower split.
And the most important thing is consistency with your diet day in an day out. Can't eat not one day and eat like a bird the next. Not saying you do that but I see it in a lot of skinny guys and new lifters talking about how much they eat but how they can't gain weight.
And lastly, leave the hormones alone for a while. Trt is alone more then just injecting yourself once or twice a week. Send me a pm is you want some diet and training advice. I started smaller then you around 125-130lbs and got up to 180 natty. Hit some plateus along the way but I didn't resort to gear everytime I stalled. Just have to be patient and make some adjustments. You gotta learn your body and what works for you first, and you haven't done that yet.
Best advice I can give you right now is to try this diet and training protocol. If you come back in month after religiouslly following these and haven't made any quality gains, I would be suprised. I hate to recommend anybody going on trt, especially not Dr. supervised. Keep going to different Drs. until one takes you seriously. it is a long drawn out process and may take up to a year after various blood tests to finally get set up with TRT. Also be sure you get your thyroid levels checked out and your SHBG.
https://www.eroids.com/forum/general/general-talk/i-know-my-tdee%E2%80%A...
You listed your body splits that doesn't really give me much to go on regarding the quality/intensity of your workouts. These are proven workout routines with progressive overload built into them that you can try instead and they also are synergistic with the above dieting protocol.
https://www.eroids.com/forum/training-nutrition-diet/workout-exercise/pa...
https://www.eroids.com/forum/training-nutrition-diet/workout-exercise/ge...
There are some natural ways I would exhaust first before self administering trt.
https://www.eroids.com/forum/training-nutrition-diet/supplements/magnesi...
https://www.eroids.com/forum/general/general-talk/natural-routes-to-lowe...
This is just the tip of the iceberg, so immerse yourself in the training/diet section. You'll learn more there than you will with any PT or dietician.
Solid advice makwa !
It's a plan but it looks like you may be spinning your wheels here. You either need to put on muscle or burn off fat. Whoever told you you can do both is blowing smoke up your ass. In your case I suggest you put on muscle, and that way you will have a better metabolism when it's time to burn off the fat.
With that said; up your calories to 3500, wipe out the cardio and ab training. Focus on compound lifts and slowly trying to increase the weight weekly. Don't be scared if a little weight gain is fat. It comes with the territory. We'll worry about that when that time comes.
Try finding a Dr that will work with you. Be persistent if need be. If your gains stall post up here and we'll re-asses.
Yes. Best bet now is put on as much muscle as possible to get the metabolism revved up to make fat burning later easier.
Yup I agree 100% 2hrs of cardio sounds like overkill and 6 days of weights sounds just about right he's trying to cut and gain he has to choose one or the other for 6 weeks minimum to see any changes and yea I would also say build muscle gain some weight
From what I have observed most personal trainers and dieticians don't know squat about how to eat to build quality muscle. Following most dieticians and PT's advice will have you end up looking like a skinnyfat crosstrainer. Unless they themselves are actually bodybuilders, I wouldn't follow their advice. All the diet and training info you need to put on quality mass is right here on this site.
Put a picture up and that will help guide everyone here on which direction you need to go for your diet and training.
Picture uploaded.
You're around 20% BF bro. What we affectionately call "skinny fat." I would not try to "cut" down the BF in the condition you're in without any muscle base. Too much of a risk you will loose what little lean tissue you have with low testosterone. If you're weighing like 150 lbs. at 20% BF - you're carrying a lean mass of 120 lbs.
Can you find an endocrinologist in your country that specializes in TRT? If you can't I would have to be a fool to think you are not going to try to self administer. No one here is going to recommend that. At the same time no one here want's you to damage your health either.
But, the gyno issue you speak of is a separate medical problem that you should be able to get treatment for. What's the deal with that? I can't see it in the picture though.
I went to 2 different ones and both said my blood tests are fine and no need for TRT.
What about the gyno? Your prolactin is high as well as your estrogen. You need to deal with the gyno before it starts producing tissue.
Yes I have that in mind and to get a treatment of Caber or Prami or Raloxifene is only obtained if I have a prescription from a doctor. I was asked to to the ultrasound scans and both nipples have small lumps left 0.9cm and right is 0.6cm in size. Both doctors offered surgery only. So thats why I felt so hopeless and ordered Pramipexole and Rolaxifene off the internet and I will have them by tomorrow. I asked the doctors if both drugs can cure my gyno and they answered with maybe.. but surgery is a better option! I said NO WAY!
I have some friends that are pro bodybuilders that have had gyno surgery. I asked them about it. They said it was "no big deal" and that they were glad they had it done. Obviously try meds first. I can't help you here - I have never had any gyno flair ups in all the years.
What protocol are you following for administering the Ralox?
I will start low at 30 for first few days and increase gradually to 60 in first week and stay like that til its gone.. running along with prami at 0.25mcg first few days and up to 0.5 if no good signs shows up.
If it was me I would run the ralox a little different. I would hit it with 90mg/d the first week and back down to 60mg until the gyno is gone.
Alright I'll follow your way.. I was just concerned about possible sides..
shouldn't have any sides with the ralox. I'd be careful with the prami though.
RustyhookerThe guys could help better with reference pictures, full stats, food intake and list full workout. I wouldn't cycle til all that is in order.