+ 13 Why you may not need to give blood/phlebotomize
Why you may not need to give blood/phlebotomize
My experience: I remember when I got my first bloods taken by my TRT doc and my Hemoglobin was 17.9 and Hematocrit was 50.4. This was before I did any testosterone. I posted my blood work and everyone was screaming at me to donate. So, I did. And ever since then I have been working on it and on my most recent bloods I was able to get them down to Hemoglobin: 15.4 and Hematocrit: 44.4. But, was it really necessary?
For those of us that get bloodwork we are constantly keeping an eye on hemoglobin and hematocrit. As we all know anabolics will raise these levels and if they are raised we are told we are at risk for clots, strokes or heart attacks because our blood is too thick. In this podcast Dr. Crisler describes why in most cases this is not true.
Dr Crisler explains that there is difference between erythrocytosis and polycythemia Vera which is what doctors are really worried about.
He says erythrocytosis is the production of healthy red blood cells which helps carry more oxygen through the body and polycythemia is the production of all types of blood cells which will increase the blood thickness and is the real risk of clot, heart attack or stroke.
Erythrocytosis is very common in people living at altitude. For example people living in Denver often have a hemoglobin of 19 and above and people living in the Andes mountains have a hemoglobin of 21. We do not phlebotomize these people and they are at no extra risk of clot, heart attack or stroke. These people live perfectly healthy lives with elevated hemoglobin and hematocrit levels. There are also many medical conditions that cause erythrocytosis says The Dr and we still do not phlebotomize these people.
The Dr says the real risk of clotting is polycythemia. Which is elevated levels of all types of blood cells making the blood too thick.
So then what should we be looking for in our blood tests. Dr says Platelet count is what we should be focused on as this will indicate clotting risk so keep an eye on your platelet levels.
So in conclusion TRT will not raise the risk of blood clots unless you already have polycythemia. Hemoglobin and Hematocrit are not markers for blood clot or blood thickness, platelet levels are. You may not have to donate or phlebotomize but, it is still good for you as long as your ferritin levels do not go too far down. This is by no means the definitive absolute truth and I urge you all to do your own research and make your own decisions and listen to your doctors.
Links:
to Dr Crisler pod cast interview:
https://youtu.be/ynHXydSGRR0
To Polycythemia Vera:
https://www.webmd.com/cancer/polycythemia-vera#1-1
To Erythrocytosis:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/medical/erythrocytosis
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Great info, good food for thought.
Thanks for posting bro!
I've read an article that mentioned donating also causes the opposite effect of what we are there because of the actual donation itself.
Looking forward to reading that article you posted. Thanks
Yes I have also heard that donating will cause our bodies to compensate for the loss of blood and actually make even more. Not too sure though. Thanks for your input.
I’ve brought my hemocrit down 5 points into three months.RBC in complete check after two donations and has not shot back up.
I’ve seen this with myself. HCT/RBC goes down and then shoots up before going back down and slowly climbs again. My endo has said not to worry so long as the HCT stays below 0.54.
Interesting read.
My cardiologist told me not to donate because I thought my #’s were high, despite being just within range.
Hydrate imo.
What’s his opinion on using steroids?
Good to know.+.
Thanks megat
One thing to keep in mind though is that this is Dr Crisler's opinion and has NOT been accepted by the medical community as a whole. There is an increase in stroke and heart attack in T users vs non users that has not been explained. The FDA was concerned where they now put a warning label on T. My point is this there are guys who are not in perfect health who still use steroids and should continue to give blood.
https://wayback.archive-it.org/7993/20170112031612/http://www.fda.gov/Dr...
https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/drugsatfda_docs/label/2018/085635s040lbl.pdf
https://www.simmonsfirm.com/blog/health-canada-flags-testosterone-replac...
I definitely agree mega especially for guys on steroids. I think he is just referring to TRT though
Good read. Thanks ++
Thank you fuse!
Very good post. Very informative as well. The information should help a lot of members. +
Thanks John!
Man this turned into a good post!Good info from everyone.Shows why this site is so great!
Personally I donate every 8 weeks.
I do too Sam. I believe it’s really good for you whether you need to or not plus it feels good helping/saving someone else’s life. And hopefully they enjoy some high levels of testosterone from us all too haha
lol x2
Bro, my hemoglobin is 17.9, hematocrit 52.5. I just finished a cycle of Sustan. I'm thinking of donating blood.
We’re you well hydrated before the blood test. I would donate just to be careful it can hurt. Also, I drink a half a gallon of water before I get bloods taken it will make a significant difference as you could just be dehydrated. Donate drink water retest bro.
Good point on hydration. I know I have seen a change in my results just from doing just that. No more flags on creatinine.
Ya mega it’s made a huge difference for me also! Crazy how our bodies react when we’re not hydrated well.
RustyhookerFew tests to review for blood work. Theres many others of course. But donation in bodybuilding with high rbc for example is something as simple as dehydration. Blood gets thicker right? Add in genetic markers that noone tests for in combo and you have issues.
Spring 2018 i had a huge clot in my vein near my stomach. Vein is thumb sized and clot was blocking. I took every known blood test on face of the earth AND dna yesting while in hospital. The drs found nothing! My blood tests and dna showed i should lean more towards bleeding as i get old.
My input....finished a heavy cycle and rbc was high enough that my bp which never gets high was 180/110. I donated rbc 2 weeks prior. However, thick blood and dehydrated.....boom! Im literally facing emergency surgery or thumb sized clot to my lungs.
Do or dont donate. Its your life. I donated LATE....
http://www.strokecenter.org/patients/stroke-diagnosis/blood-tests/
Thank you for sharing your story with us, I have an appointment to donate in the morning! Do you donate whole blood or double red?
That's a good post. I stored a picture of that link.
I agre dehydration definitely skews the results and I was probably dehydrated my first couple of tests. I drink half a gallon of water before now on. That’s crazy shit rust you still have the blood clot in your stomach? How did they find it and would giving blood have prevented that?
RustyhookerSerious gut pain that literally felt like constipation. Got a scan and it showed. From there it was non stop blood tests.
Opinion....i should have donated sooner. I think the combo of high platelets and dehydrated bit me. Theres nothing found by the drs that even suggested id ever have a clot. As long as i run cycles i personally will donate. Too many variables in play.
Damn that’s unfortunate rust. Did the blood tests show elevated platelets? Just wondering as that’s what the dr said we should look out for. Anyway best of luck in the future bro stay healthy.
RustyhookerI donated just before the issue so i was an anomoly. 100% clear on every blood disorder. The first tests were for lupus so i bout crapped myself. Then it went to testing for every known disorder.
Two things.People at altitude are not at as high of risk of stroke because they are altitude.Those in the Andes will also chew coca leaves to push blood pressure up as well, because it helps them deal with altitude.The other thing is something you didn’t mention at all.Prolonged conditional high RBC and hemocrit causes left ventricle expansion,Aka as enlarged heart.So Maybe stroke is not the issue in some cases.I do agree with you that in some cases,bleeding may not be needed,especially for the endurance athletes.After all,they train at Big Bear for a reason.
+ 1 for thinking outside the box!
100% true about the Incas in the Andes. The Peruvian government has tried and failed to seize those coca leaves many times, but it just won’t happen. Good for the Natives, I say. That’s actually quite ingenious of them to figure that out. They’ve been doing it for thousands of years!
Those are interesting points bro I didn’t know at all. I just heard this podcast and because since I’ve started TRT I’ve been mega worried about hemoglobin hematocrit I thought this would help some people put their minds at ease. I did suggest people do more research as I should do myself. Thanks for the added info bro. Thank you appreciate the encouragement. I’m glad I posted because we can all come together and put all the info together here.
Yes sir!Some Md’s are more concerned than others about this problem.I For one can feel in my head when my hemocrit is too high,but admittedly I do not do enough cardio and carry too much body fat.One thing though is bleeding will bring it down fast.The real question is how low is too low?Great post to get us thinking!
Ya crazy enough my doctor didn’t even mention my h/h everyone here told me I needed to donate. Definitely need more research and I’m curious as to the actual numbers of people getting stroke with only high h/h and not elevated platelets. Also, i believe donating and phlebotomy are actually good for us anyway just maybe sometimes not necessary. Thank you brotha hopefully I can come up with more posts like this in the future.
Good read, My doctor Believes I have polycythemia due to severe sleep apnea, I have to donate 500CC’s of blood every other month Or so, I cannot use the CPAP machine due to my septum in my nose being broken several times and an enlarged soft palate in my throat. My airways are pretty much cut off , I’m going to have surgery in the near future to correct this I hope and then I should be able to use the CPAP and that should correct the problem.
Achilles412You can’t use the CPAP at all? Even full mask? I had almost the same exact issue plus Was over 300 lbs when I tested for Apena. Had 109 disturbances. Glad your getting it fixed sleep Apena wrecks havoc my man. Is there nothing you can do in the interim? I declined surgery because they said it may not even cure my issues. The full mask has been a life saver blood pressure dropped 20 points! Good luck
Man I’ve tried every CPAP mask in on the market and I haven’t had any luck. My doctor told to sleep propped up until I can get the surgery done, My ENT doctor told me I’m in for a world of hurt for about two weeks after the surgery but if it helps then I’m all for it. Thanks
Thanks Fred! Damn that’s crazy I’m sorry to hear that. What did your platelet levels come back at just wondering. Also donating that much how are your ferritin levels? Anyway I hope you stay healthy bro and best wishes on your surgery in the future.
I love informative posts like these! Big ++
This notwithstanding, a great precaution to help keep crit under control more naturally is by doing regular aerobic exercise. Which we’re all already doing anyways… riiiight? ;)
Thanks bro I appreciate it. I didn’t know regular aerobic exercise could help keep it under control? Learn something new every second here haha.
In fact, endurance athletes have to be concerned with crit getting too low. But that’s on the extreme end of prolonged aerobic activity. Hence Lance Armstrong, blood doping scandal, blatant media scapegoat… oops, that escalated quickly
Ahh that makes sense now! Aerobic exercise decreases h/h so they take drugs to increase it. Haha I feel dumb I didn’t know that. But let’s be honest 90% of those bikers were probably on stuff. I think I heard somewhere one of his teammates threw him under the bus? I could be wrong I thought that’s what I heard though.
Oh god, at the Tour de France level? Man, that one individual had to have been the exception, not the rule. While I don’t agree with Lance trying to blackmail the person by involving his family and all, I can’t blame him for being pissed off. Like, “if you’re not willing to do what it takes to win at the highest level, get the fuck off of my team. You have no place here if you want to be Mr Morality.”
But, things got ugly. All it takes is one rat to undo it all.
Wow that’s interesting nice write up!
Thank you!