+ 13 pct all wrong?
I would like the community to take a look at these links and hear what everyone has to say. The first link is to a pct calculator which shows that we should really be starting are pct way later than we are.
http://pct.befit4free.net/
Upon some research I found a couple more links provided by cbbur that has Dr. Scally thoughts.
http://thinksteroids.com/forum/steroid-post-cycle-therapy/your-opinion-m...
http://thinksteroids.com/forum/steroid-post-cycle-therapy/comprehensive-...
CBBur great post and very interesting and thank u for the time to post these I don't want karma for this cause I don't want to parrots any info. I feel like this is a very real question we need to ask the community as I feel your pct is the most important part of any cycle.
- Bookmark
- 13
- 0
This was a damn good read and glad I read about the test p usage near the end. the steroidplot is amazing, so easy to see when the levels of serum ~ 50mg/day .
Ya I think this opened up a lot of eyes
Anonhttp://www.eroids.com/forum/steroids-qa/pct-anti-estrogens/problems-duri...
So I thought maybe this guy could be experiencing signs of still having plasma concentrations high enough to get even more shrinkage. I think this may be relative to the info being shared on this thread. What does everyone think? Did he start PCT too soon? I didn't see AI use for PCT. Was his HCG use too much and he has estrogen signs? Hmmmm go peep it out
If you look at my post on that thread i believe he started pct to soon. Im like you and i like to always taper with prop. It makes going into pct so much easier. his hcg was fine, its just that when he stopped it he still gad a shitload of exogenous testosterone in his system so it kinda just reversed the effects of the hcg. He started pct 14 days after his last shot of test c, and he finished his hcg 10 days after his last shot of test c. So think about how much test he's gonna still have in his body 10 days after his last shot. I would have to guess his blood levels would still be over 2000 at that point. He probably should have waited 3 weeks to start pct, and wait a week after his last test shot to start the hcg.
AnonI'm reading everything on this thread and fuck that's a lot to digest. I'm torn. Half of me doesn't believe in math and the human body. They don't always coincide. The power of individuality. DNA.
The other half of me trusts math and half lives. Making the pct time table open for changing. But the math is based on averages. Not really my cup of tea. Pct needs to be fluid. Like water. Anyone ever heard Bruce lee talk about water?
We should treat cycles and PCT with the same approach as that quote.
I'm sold on one thing and one thing only. Every cycle should end with short ester Test if someone wants to run a PCT. I always recommend it to everybody. Always. Regardless of experience. Drop your longs with plenty of time and run a Prop taper into pct. I say 3 days but maybe now it's seven? Is 4 days going to kill things for a good pct? IMO no it will not.
Respect goes out to CBurr for driving the topic discussion with Dr Scally. Good shit. I'll keep reading and probably will have more questions. Glad to see the General Viking up in here talking PCT.
What I always say about charts and graphs as they pertain to pharmacological issues is that they get you in the vicinity. Will each person deviate slightly in some way? Sure. But never so much as to call into question the accuracy of the base algorithms. Holds true for any clinical study.
AnonTrue. But you're also dealing with UGL medication. Most folks don't get Pharmaceutical grade Oils. The demographic of folks who use UGL are broke or young or want the gear fast. Those same users won't have the money knowledge or patience to do as many labs as this calls for. Only so many folks got extra cash to throw at getting a perfect pct right.
But at face value I think this deserves further testing. Having members do bloods outlined in the links above to establish a personal baseline and then using the formula to establish a pct start date. I'd love to see what the bloods say. Plus I'd love to hear how members felt physically and emotionally. But I honestly feel like the most accurate part of this discussion is the Prop taper. I like that part a lot. If the labs and the user say it's better than I'd love to see more folks follow these guidelines. Me, I'm done with PCT. Gunna cruise blast till the wheels fall off.
I agree the one thing we can take away for sure is the prop taper is the way to at the end. I would love to see bloodwork those don't lie. My next cycle I'm running long esters and will do a prop taper and I will see how my pct goes
So what's a proper taper look like? 100 eod, then 75 then 50? I've never done one because I've seen so many different ways it should done. I like to understand why I'm doing something not just do it because someone says "that's the way it's always been done"
AnonWell I used the term "prop taper" simply as a reference to ending the cycle using a short ester. 100mg eod for some who don't mind eod injections and a lower dose like 50mg daily for those who like daily injections. Another way to look at the word taper is like you stated. 100mg/75mg/50mg and so on. That in my opinion is a true taper. Especially in a AI protocol. Guys will use this style to come off gradually so it's not cold turkey. I personally never have had issues coming off gear so I stick to my normal dose of Prop until the very end. I normally wait 3.5 days after my last long ester test injection and start a 100mg eod taper for the last 3wks. Generally it's just used to let the long ester wear off so 3wks or 2wks is normal.
That's the way I do it but I'm sure each person here does it their own way. IMO a user new to tapers should keep it simple and not get too complex with their tapers. Especially when it's just oils we are talking about. AI usage is much more complex and their tapers need to be well thought out.
I'm not looking to over complicate things or get advanced either, but I do see the benefit of a taper into PCT. So I'll give 100 eod a go next time. One thing I will be including this time through PCT will be PEPs. I am anxious to see if this will in aid in maintaining gains. This has been one of my biggest issues is adjusting my diet and training to "off cycle" mode.
I think it depends on how much test you are doing. What I have found is the first week of a taper at 100 eoD is pretty goods mainly because you still have E or C in your system but by week two you start feeling the drop off. By week three you are "feeling" ready to begin pct. Now what I am considering this time is starting out at te 100 eoD but then bumping it up a bit to make up for the lost long ester. Nothing crazy mind you, just tweaking it a little.
For me I may even feel fine at 100eod this time. My last two cycles I was running either 500 or 600 test e per week where this time when I added .40 ml of tren ace Ed so I lowered my test down to 250 per week. Point is maybe the 100eod this time will feel right the whole taper...
Right like everything else it's dose dependent. This is my last week of 500 mg test and 50mg Provi and I don't have any Prop lying around so taper will not be done this time. My next cycle I'm looking to do will be around the first of next year and will be a bulk. Test and Deca, test will prob be 600 max, so I will probably just do 100 eod taper for an easy let down into PCT.
Brother, if it isn't too much bother I would order a couple bottles of prop, extend your regular cycle by a few days if need be. It is a much softer landing, at least to me.
Well I was gonna get some shit just to get. I may do that especially since this time I'm on Test only, so I should have a very good Idea of how I will feel.
Do not hesitate........... run the taper at the dosage outlined it will make a massive difference in the transition period from cycle/PCT....... then its all about PMA (positive mental attitude ) to keep eating and training BIG and heavy....... that is THE only way to hold gains plus a little help from my mate Monohydrate, some Big shakes and a healthy addition of Maltodextrin to keep carbs sky high.
Will do! I know it's all about the space between the ears. Thanks.
GRF-1 and GHRP-6 combo is superb off cycle ammunition too........... GRF-1 is CJC1295 wo DAC bye the way.
Ok I got GHRP-2 and CJC wo dac. I read that GHRP-2 was a cleaner second generation PEP is there any truth to this? Also how long on PEPs before prolactin becomes an issue?
It is second generation thats why it carries the number 2 bro............ difference is that you will not experience the gut wrenching "i could eat a scabby dog" hunger response when the ghrelin kicks in after each shot................. 6 is far better for bulking periods whereas 2 is more maintenance or even cutting..... this is the reason why i always advise GHRP-6 to all you guys wanting to gain.
Either someone as advised you wrong or you made the wrong choice but do not expect appetite boost or super fast gastric emptying with GHRP-2.
Prolactin issue is as individual as human nature itself bro........... if you are prone and the next guy is not?....... there is no telling just like Ai use, some rely on it others like myself never need it EVER!
Ok, I'll get some 6 on the way. I wasn't advised wrong just made the wrong choice. Not much PEP talk going on other than MT2. Well I'll keep an eye out for prolactin. I got some prami somewhere.
Not much PEP talk or any other fucking good talk on here because its jacked with fucking tren heads with pencil necks and no legs............... im fkn sick of the mentality issue around here with all these fkn runts.
I have been sitting on some GHRP-6 for awhile, I will be loading up some of the 2 as well. You know I am always on GH so peps for me is no big deal at all.
RustyhookerCharts and graphs just leave out the human animal. You and i are humans but running the exact same gear will have very different outcomes. We are not neat lil boxes
AnonIt's definitely a convo that needs to be had though homie. I'd even like to see some folks run some labs to see if the numbers fall in line with the math. Using the prop taper would get them into pct quickly enough.
RustyhookerBloods don't lie. Just like back testing peps to find a pct that worked and was real.
I'll commit to getting bloods done the day I start PCT. It will be valuable info to have!
I sure hope I can handle the PIP i get from prop a little better at the end of the cycle.
you've got a good point Carlos.. that table doesn't account for conversion to estrogen, it doesn't account for test that is bound...
it doesn't account for individual responses to test itself.
these things have to be taken as generalizations and applied accordingly ...
Dr. Scally I will leave for entirely different discussion if I should ever broach the topic, be that it is controversial
AnonMarked for later
shoxingbiceps17Damn, I'm all confused now. Tren E at 250mg every 4 days can have me at almost 900mg at some days??
Let's not hijack this discussion. Send me a PM.
I don't know if a graphic will help, but this is what just pinning 250 mg e3d of Test E for 4 weeks looks like. You can see the half-life decay every 10.5 days and see just how long it takes.
Courtesy: Anabolic Steroid Calculator
ray3801I'm confused by this graph.....with Test E having a half life of 10.5 days, wouldn't it take longer than 30 days to reach a peak of 1200mg?
think about it like a bank loan... the interest is compounding so there is interest on the interest where by you end up paying more and more.. which is why when you take out a loan you need to pay attention to how they set up the interest rates and apply them to the loan .. same goes with multiple injections.. your blood levels peak and fall bc of the half life but when you keep adding to the base the base continues to increase despite the half lifes ...
Thanks grrl for contributing on the forum great answer
BOOOOM!............... Grrl dealing the dice out here like a PRO............... +3 TOP INFO. :))
ray3801Makes perfect sense now....never thought about in those terms. +1
So is it a buyers or sellers market these days?
depends on if you are the buyer or the seller and who is administering the loan o-O
well my credit is shot, good thing you take canned goods.
Not when you keep adding to it e3d as it tries to decay.
ray3801I guess you're right, I just didn't expect the loading phase to increase so fast. I was under the impression it would take 10 days to start releasing the bulk of an injection into the bloodstream. Learn something new everyday!
Noid suggested a front load to me, I ran it on the charts and you'd be amazed at how quick the levels rose. Needless to say I ran with it.
ray3801I actually research a lot about front loading a long ester and so much I read said it was worthless. But after seeing this chart I can see it would work great.
you can't beat a front load.. people think it is worthless bc they don't understand how it works
Well the numbers don't lie. Unless these programs and charts are completely bogus, which I know they're not, there is no denying it.
You know the software is cheap. Why design cycles in the dark when you can know exactly what everything looks like? Frontloads, kickers, tapers, blah blah . . .
the software is free! http://steroidplot.com/
I looked at that, it's a good point of departure, but steroid calculator as Champ gave the link below is much more full featured.
RustyhookerIMO a front load is better for someone that cycled before and understands their bodies reactions to estro. A slow move into cycle versus a fast reaction.
So many good variations