posted Fri, 08/08/2025 - 19:04
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+ 2 TRT...Supraphysiologic levels...studies
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Thought I would share two videos, one short, the other quite long. The first deals with "supraphysiologic" levels of testosterone. The second video is a webinar presented by hormone guru Dr. Neal Rouzier to doctors and other health professionals. A lot of science-based info that you may not have ever heard.
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GuzmanusInteresting stuff. Gotta be careful pushing T levels too high though, I've read about potential risks there. Like, I think I saw something about it possibly leading to brain cell death at 1-2k.
Both videos are good. In summary, they simply make the case for a human centered approach to treatment, but for different reasons/from different viewpoints.
The 2nd video is good because the doc is flagging certain practices that are increasingly being acknowledged as flawed... In particular with diabetes and hormone replacement therapies (your 'normal'/number isn't always the same as mine) but also with testing/benchmarking.
Thanks for sharing
FYI, the doc in the first video was trained by Dr. Rouzier in the second video.
Interesting, makes sense. He clearly cares. Good docs, no doubt, both of them.
I would urge caution though, when he throws numbers like 1 to 2k around, at 2k you run risks such as brain cell death.
His message is clear, but given it's hitting kids on YouTube, taking 2k will lead someone, somewhere, to a path of damage. (Damned if you do, damned if you don't etc.)
It is true that ranges are for shooting and golfing. But, for TRT heads, we need reference points to track against, and for tracking small changes too. E.g. This year, I've had to track time above the limit versus below the limit. We have an agreement that it's ok if dose spikes levels above as long as we spend a certain time below. For us, this is a half way house that reconcile symptoms management against ranges, but also, in the knowledge that heart disease is coming eventually for pretty much every pale white male (potential longevity risk tradeoff).
Brain cell death? Yikes! Is that theoretical, or have studies been done? Very interesting. What do you think of Dr. Rouzier's (second video) statement that TT numbers are meaningless because they don't correlate with physiological effects? I think that's how he said it.
Studies. I've cited a specific one on here before, I'll see if I can dig it out. Tldr was super high = neurotoxic, but below a threshold is neuroprotective.
I don't agree with meaningless. By saying that he falls into the opposite side of the trap to those who only rely on ranges.
E.g. I measure estrogen because below a certain level induces severe depression. Above a certain level correlates with water retention and breast cell inflammation (watch out for those moobs).
Tracking movement against dose, adding colour via logging mood, sexual function, and stress in life gives a valuable holistic picture while trying to find a good dose/ frequency response, which can be a struggle for many
I spoke with a biochemist I know about the brain cell death...this is his comment:
"There are some studies which show glial cell dendrite damage associated with high doses of androgens in general. but death outright, no. This was also shown in a petri dish So that means cells were estrogen deprived. because there was no way for testosterone to aromatize into estradiol."
Yep most casual evidence is in in vitro studies, of course. However it has been demonstrated clearly that cell death can result from cascade effects from dose dependent exposure to test (and other testosterones: deca). They reckon it is mediated by cascade effects (calcium channel and a couple of other means).
Estrada 2006 Elevated Testosterone Induces Apoptosis in Neuronal Cells
That's the study I mentioned, you can access it free.
In terms of in vivo, they have studied androgens in mice, deca, and proven they worsen motor neuron degeneration (in disease). Very relevant. I had a quick search there and found a study on Kennedy disease in 2015 that shows high doses of androgens have the ability to damage motor neurons (not directly relevant to healthy people, but still shows mechanism.
The Estrada paper is significant, human cells, shows damage with big dose and none with low dose. There are also related studies on vivo in living rats (mammals with same Endo systems) showing neuronal cell death markers.
It's more or less all there. Again, like those Dr's with numbers do t matter versus the range merchants, when you go all or nothing, black versus white, you will miss the truth somewhere in the middle.
Thank you. This is what I like. Now to research.
Wow. Some truly ground breaking shit right here. Who would have thought the guys on higher doses would have a higher sex drive, feel better overall and gain more muscle. Hmm, I feel like this something we’ve been alluding to around here for 15 years….
Notice how he didn’t say anything about the negative effects of moderate to high dose testosterone. It’s going to lower HDL is most people, for many cutting it in half, it’s going to raise LDL by 25-50%. Increase RBC and hematocrit. Lett ventricular hypertrophy, arterial stiffness etc. even low TRT doses tend to increase BP by 10 points, some people worse than others. This is exacerbated at higher doses, and in older guys.
TRT is a balancing act. Sure you’ll probably feel really good at higher doses. I know I do. Youll build muscle, want to fuck anything with a hole, great mood and sense of wellbeing. But in most people the negative impact on one’s heath at high doses long term outweighs these benefits. If you really want to feel great you should go take some Dianabol. This stuff makes you feel awesome. But it’s terrible for you lol. You should be on a dose that makes you feel normal. If you want to push up to the highest dose you can where all bio markers remain in range, that’s probably ok. We don’t really have any data on this though.
I haven’t watched the 2nd video yet.
You ignore almost everything that Dr. Nichols said. I suspect your confirmation bias is so bad that you will get nothing out of Dr. Rouzier's webinar, either, no matter how many studies, RCT's, or peer reviewed articles he references.
Don't forget hair loss lol. My test levels are pretty friggin high for "trt", but it's Dr prescribed. Certainly well above trt levels (1700-1900). It has caused high blood pressure, hair loss, not willing to lose ANY argument, sex drive of a 15 year old, oily skin, pimples all over my scalp, massive muscle gain. I've actually added more gear to it to finish a cut and then I'm really looking fwd to trying to get around 800-1000 levels. Or wherever I end up able to balance feeling good with tolerable sides.
I’m in my late 50s and currently running around 1500 total testosterone on 160 mg per week — zero hair loss. I really believe it’s largely genetic. Right now, I’ve bumped my dose for a 12-week healing phase that includes 2 IU of GH daily, plus BPC-157 and TB-500 to help repair a torn tricep. I feel amazing at this level, but I don’t plan to stay here permanently. After the 12 weeks, I’ll taper back down to around 1000, since there isn’t much long-term data supporting higher levels for maintenance.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but hair loss from testosterone supplementation/DHT occurs if you are already genetically predisposed to losing your hair. Surely, you know guys on TRT with full heads of hair. It is obvious from your side effects (not numbers) that your dosing is too high, since there are guys with those same total testosterone numbers that do not have those side effects.
This is correct. It’s a sensitivity to DHT. This is why DHT derivatives usually let people know if they’re going to have hair loss issues or not. If you can handle primo/mast without issue you should be good.
I usually run around 900 total without any sides but not sure if it should be lower
I'll never understand why guys chase numbers in a reference range that is always dropping over the years. Years ago a guy with a TT of 1,100 would have been "in range", and good to go. Today he would be considered in supraphysiologic range, and at risk. Does that make any sense at all to you?
I wouldn't think so if all ur bloods are looking good and no sides. But I'm not really qualified to answer that one. @irongame427 is like the local shaman around here. He could probably dial you in.
Your first statement is correct. If we can't trust bloodwork (CBC, Metabolic Panel...) and the way a man feels, what then?
The second part of my statement is correct as well. @irongame427 is the shaman around here. Quit arguing with everything he says.
Are you like a real life Dr or something? can you prescribe me some more gear if so?
Ha, ha..
On trt what number do you try keeping total testosterone at?
You don't because the numbers are different from lab to lab, and have been dropping for years due to a sick, and fat society. Numbers indicate absolutely nothing about what is happening at the cellular level. They only tell you the blood serum levels. The second video I posted goes into detail about this.
The high end of normal, 800-1000. I’m prescribed 150mg a week and I feel great at this dose.
Sounds like a cookie cutter approach, everyone fits into the same hole. Define "normal" when reference ranges have been dropping? Your own personal dose is irrelevant to this other person.
Normal is when you don't need ancillary medications to deal with estrogen, BP, RBC, ED, cholesterol, cortisol etc.
The "normal range" is a sampling of the population. If you are within the normal range you are not apt to have hormonal side effects. That doesn't mean that under proper endo care that an individuals peak could be outside the normal (average) range.
These are important baseline. We are not our grandfather's generation which worked physically hard.
Bodybuilders are not normal people either but they should be aware of the increased risks living on the upper edge. Old farts on TRT with moderate exercise and no medical guidance need to pay close attention to the "normal range"
Talk about information bias. You hear what you want to hear and disregard the rest.
LabCorp's total testosterone reference range for men 20 years of age and up is between 264-916 ng/dl. If your blood serum levels fall anywhere within this range, you do not qualify for testosterone replacement because this is the "normal range", even if you clock in at 265 ng/dl. If you're going to go by the numbers, then stick with them.
Your point?
That is the new normal range for our modern population. Most within that range are perfectly fine. Symptoms of low T could be something else. No GP is going to carte Blanche perscribe TRT. going outside the normal range for the new soyboy population will create secondary issues. You need to see an endo doc and rule out other potential issues such as stress, sleep apnea, diet, etc. For low T. Your body is not adapted for a consistently high T levels. Even your normal range fluctuates throughout the day.
That's not to say that some individuals can't be the exception. But for you to think that what was true for our Neanderthal cousins is true for you is simple nieve bullshit.
There's no conspiracy, the normal range is not arbitrarily. You are just willfully uninformed.
Exactly, the reference range isn’t just pulled out of thin air. It’s the result of studies analyzing blood tests from thousands of people. The purpose of TRT is to provide you with what you should be making naturally. Going way beyond that isn’t trt anymore. It’s something else. Which is fine. But there’s additional risks.
I think if you ask 20 ppl you will get 20 different answers. Was just talking to a guy at work who says he pins a gram of test a week PERMANENTLY. sounds crazy to me, but to him it's biz as usual.
Drs on the other hand I think take a much more conservative approach to your levels as they aren't interested in how hard you can pound pussy or your lats. One of my best friends was just prescribed 75/wk test cyp. That's probably a legit trt dose for all I know. My Dr lets me do 200/wk, but I think she might be the most awesome Dr ever. Either that or she wants me to try to fuck her in her office..
What's wrong with 200/wk if you have no side effects, you feel good, and your bloodwork confirms everything else?
I cruise on 200/wk, it puts me around 1200 and I feel good there. Historically that’s upper end of normal, I do think for longevity purposes I’ll eventually drop down to a dose that puts me closer to 1000. Bloodwork doesn’t catch everything.
Years ago, you would be within the magical reference range, and good to go. Today, the lower reference range puts you outside, and at risk. I wonder how far down the reference range will go.
Years ago the NATURAL test levels were higher as I insinuated above. Your body can NATURALLY regulate NATURAL hormone levels.
We are soyboys compared to our grandfathers in their prime. The normal levels are not arbitrarily being changed.
What you are missing in your YOLO conceit, is that unless you have been eating and working like your grandfather or great grandfather from adolescents to adulthood, you are outside your "baseline normal range".
I had a good friend who’s cruise dose was a gram a week. Big dude, competitive bodybuilder. He died of a heart attack in 2017 at the ripe old age of 47.
Side effects and shit also depends on how you treat your body now, and how you’ve treated your body in the last few decades. If you’re fat and out of shape, don’t lift, and eat like crap and have a bunch of life style diseases you’re going to get a lot more sides on test. Test and steroids in general amplifies existing problems. Whereas a guy who’s stayed in good shape his whole life, stayed active, eats a decent diet and doesn’t have any significant pre existing conditions will likely tolerate test at any dose better and see much less impact in bloodwork.
But in general if you’re test levels are 1000ng/dl and you still feel like crap and haven’t experienced any symptom relief, low T was not causing your problems and you have other issues that need to be identified and address. I see this all the time. Guys think TRT is a fix all solution and it’s not. They get on TRT and their levels are up in optimal range, all other bio makers are good and they’re still depressed, lack motivation. No sex drive, dick don’t work etc. there are way more conditions besides low T that cause those symptoms.
What’s crazy is how many people you still see cruising at doses like that. Just saw a post on another forum of a guy cutting down to sub 12% BF on almost a gram of gear and Reta, why? He only weighed like 175lbs at the end of the cut.
If you compete that’s one thing, but despite the effort of forums like this to push harm reduction people aren’t giving their bodies breaks and just cram as much gear as possible. Less is more some times.
Hit the nail on the head with sides too, seeing too many people hop on a bunch of gear or even “sports TRT” doses while being like 30% BF and eating like shit, AAS seem to be growing in popularity with social media and there’s a large wave of newcomers that don’t care to put in the research or take things slowly.
"But in general if you’re test levels are 1000ng/dl and you still feel like crap and haven’t experienced any symptom relief, low T was not causing your problems and you have other issues that need to be identified and address." No. This is a cookie cutter approach which ignores bio-individuality, as well as what is happening at the cellular level.
100% true on all accounts. There's so much that goes into being healthy. Test is one part of a big equation. thankyou for all your input as always.
Als, sorry about your friend. That is way too young.
This guy did everything as right as you can when being that size and running those kinds of doses. He got bloodwork every 30 days. He didn’t fuck around with natural supplements for controlling side effects while on powerful unnatural drugs. He was on BP and cholesterol meds to control all that. Thyroid meds. He always said his bloodwork looked good. Not sure if he ever did any cardiac imaging but I would assume he did.
Jesus man that is terrible. See a lot of guys on here blasting away and I'm sure that gets you thinking. Scary stuff.
Not to say I don't intend to blast myself, but the scaries do cross my mind.
75/weekly is chemical castration
25mg a week is chemical castration. The study the guy in this video was referencing included some patients on 25mg per week and they lost muscle. Because their natural production which the exogenous test shut down was much higher than the 25mg dose that replaced it. 50mg a week works well for some people. And in the study didn’t hurt or help them. It was essentially a replacement dose. I know some guys on 80mg a week who are around 1000ng/dl. Some people are hyper responders to test.
Might be true, but that is what he was prescribed. I think in his case his Dr is very conservative. Gotta play by ur Drs rules if you want pharma test.