+ 13 TO GIVE BLOOD OR NOT THAT IS THE QUESTION
Armwrestlingfiend put up an interesting post couple of months back about do you really need to give blood. After reading that post I did some digging and found some interesting facts. There have been some studies on this and so far no one that I could find has conclusively determined that high hemoglobin or hematocrit cause thrombosis (blood clot) from testosterone use in health individuals. Now the reason I'm writing this is for the frequent blood donors among us and what happens if you go to the well to many times.
In my search I ran across an interesting study. When you give blood your not only giving blood but your also giving about 250 mg of iron that comes out with it. Now we all know that iron is essential in making RBC. Low iron can cause IDE (Iron-deficient erythropoiesis) and we have seen it here. What are the chances it can happen to you and how can you prevent it. I'm going to show you how prevalent it is and what you can do about it.
You local blood bank is well aware of this problem. That is why they test your iron and hemoglobin levels before you even give blood. Ferritin is another test some blood banks give. Fall below a certain level on any of these and you can't donate. In Dec 2012 the AABB (American Association of Blood Banks) started seeing this problem and put together an ad hoc group to study this. In essence they did this for liability reasons and concerns that they were doing harm. http://www.aabb.org/advocacy/statements/Documents/statement161117.pdf#se...
They checked some of the donors and also some of the donated blood for Ferritin. In case your wondering Ferritin is the major iron storage protein in the body, so the Ferritin test is used as an indirect way to measure the iron stores in the body. They use <12 as meaning AIE( Absent Iron Stores) M or F. For males Ferritin 12-<30 is considered LF (Low Ferritin). >30 is considered normal levels. So what did they find out? Out of 26k+ donations of males tested for ferritin 20% had AIE and another 26% had LF. So what does this mean? It means almost half of the donars were either low on iron stores or had no iron stores. If you give blood and have no iron stores you can not make new blood cells until that store is replenished. If you stores are low your replacement of new cells will be slowed both leading to side affects. So what can I do about it you ask. If your a feeling out of sorts and fatigued but can't put your finger on it go get a ferritin blood test or for couple $ get Iron, Comprehensive Panel. If ferritin is below the levels stated above go see your Dr. with blood test in hand.
http://www.aabb.org/tm/Documents/AABB-Donor-Iron-Deficiency-RBDM-Assessm...
If your wondering what IDA looks like on a blood test from frequent donations follow the link. https://www.eroids.com/sites/default/files/gearpic/142781/06%202019Labs.jpg
If you have AIE or LF showing in your blood test I would go back to the place of donation and say "Look since I have been giving blood I now have low or no iron what can we do about it" and see what they say. It's worth a shot. Some of the bigger blood banks will give you iron supplements but again depends on the state and laws in that state. Ok that's it read the study and as always let me what you think.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4980154/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5094173/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6442963/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27784544
http://www.trtrevolution.com/new-data-men-dont-need-phlebotomy-with-dr-j...
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I go once a year (twice if there’s a drive at work) because it’s the right thing to do, but I’ve never had out of range RBC or hematocrit or hemoglobin, etc., even on a 22 week EQ cycle. Always either right in range or the high end of normal, so I don’t know what I’d do if that was the situation. like always it seems bloods should dictate. But the question is what to do if you’re high and your other markers are good (not low indicating IDE)
This is great info and I’ll certainly be keeping an eye on the markers for IDE. Thanks brother you’re a gold mine of info and I’ve certainly learned a ton thru ur posts over the years.
Side note. Somewhat unrelated but possibly useful. The only time I’ve noticed any of my blood markers off where high RDW and potassium. Seemed to align with when I had low e2.
Well that depends on how high. If hemaglobin is under 18 and hematocrit is under 55 you have no high blood pressure or heart disease in good health i wouldn't do anything. I used those numbers as some TRT Dr's recommend giving blood when you get at and above those levels.
Think about this guys at altitude have high H/H and don't give blood. Some guys on this board live at altitude and have really high H/H levels when not on cycle and don't give blood with no ill effect to them.
The Ultimate TRT Hangout with Nelson Vergel, Dr John Crisler and Jay Campbell
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8wPlroSy4c&list=PLC2EGFh4_J3ijiJv07QMbA...
High Hematocrit on Testosterone Replacement Therapy TRT
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RnibU9_Cgk
New Data On Why Some Men Don’t Need Phlebotomy w/ Dr. John Crisler
http://www.trtrevolution.com/new-data-men-dont-need-phlebotomy-with-dr-j...
Nice. I’ll check those links out thanks brother
I’ve never had an issue of low iron from donating but I don’t go as often as most but still a great post it’s alwYs good to understand the risks. Thanks for taking the time to put this together!
If you are eating a bodybuilders diet, and are a non menstruating man, the chances of you having low iron is nearly zero. Men should never take iron supplements without the advice of their doctor.
I gave today. It was 60 days on the money. My iron score......18.7. I have been giving consistently every 60 days for at least 2 years now and the lowest it has ever been was over 17. At 20 they won't let you give. I have been in the high 19's a couple times. I am scared to go around high powered magnets lol
Goes to show, even when "menstruating" every other month, you are getting more than enough iron in your normal diet.
Having too much iron in your blood can cause serious problems. Most iron supplements are aimed at women who bleed one week each month, every month. Meat is a big source of iron. Most all "bodybuilders" are eating plenty of meat.
I want to stress this for all so they don't just jump on an OTC iron supplement because of this post. Too much iron can be dangerous. Iron can lead to life-threatening conditions, such as liver disease, heart problems and diabetes.
Men should not supplement iron without first talking to their doctor.
Noted and corrected. What Greg states as far as supplementation of iron is fact. I do agree you should be under a Dr's care. In my hast to make light of this problem for some I should of made it clear always see your Dr. before supplementing.
Where I disagree is that some ARE like menstruating women. Some women take iron supplements to compensate for the blood loss from menstruation. It's also one of the reasons IDA affects more females than males. The average female loses about 90 ml (and I'm on the high side) of blood during their period. The average blood donation is about 470 ml which is 5 months of periods in one blood donation. Another point in why I wrote this is to show that frequent blood donations does affect iron levels more frequently than most thought. That is a medical documented fact. We come in all shapes sizes nutritional and health levels. Some will never experience it but there or others who will due to diet, absorption problems and blood loss from donations. If your taking antacids it will affect iron absorption as an example.
Ferritin stores iron for use and is the better test to ascertain body iron levels. Iron serum levels can vary as much as 30% throughout the day just like testosterone highest in the AM. If your blood tests consistently show lower hemoglobin levels go get a ferritin test and if ferritin is low go see your Dr. But keep in mind that AAS use hides this as it builds up blood. I've been seeing it more often when a person comes off cycle are blast.
labcorp iron serum ref. range is 38-169 ug/dL ferritin ref range 15-150 ng/mL
quest iron serum ref range is 50-180 mcg/dL ferritin ref range 38-380 ng/ml 19-59yr males
Corrected post don't want anyone to hurt themselves see your point Greg.
Right on. I am sure everyone is different but luckily that is one of the things they test for before you actually give. So if you are reading on the low side ease up, if you are like me and always test very high, continue
My Iron is consistently near the max level after my 60 days between giving. Once it was right on the bubble to where they wouldn't let me give. Unless you are a vegan or some other condition us AAS users shouldn't have anything to worry about.
I know a trainer here he trains boxers , he considered top of the top
One night while talking at diner he said to me bodybuilders of today bigest mistake is giving blood so often he says its not required and only aids in iron deficiency.
When i asked how to lower hematocrit when on aas then he was prety rude and answered : “ go off cycle more often idiot “
I brushed the idiot coment and continued discusion so take it for what is worth but this guy trains top athletes that make a lot of money and know a lot about peds
Great research mega i will say it again we are lucky to have you on eroids
Thank you for all your help and posts brother
Respect
Dope
Thank you for taking the time to organize all of this data. A very worthwhile read. +
Nice post +1
I think most people on here will have a rich iron diet that will aid in recovery from a donation but its an interesting read.
You would think so but not always the case.
https://www.eroids.com/forum/general/general-talk/iron-deficiency-and-ir...
You can naturally supplement iron as well just by cooking in cast iron pans.
I remember a study about iron deficiency in Cambodia that got skewed halfway through because of some water contaminated with arsenic (which blocked the iron absorption) but has been repeated with success since. They cooked with a piece of iron in their soups and reversed anemia.
https://www.bbc.com/news/health-32749629
Also if you have well water (like me) that is iron rich. Again, my levels are always at the very top of the spectrum. Magneto would fuck me up with this much iron in my blood lol
I love the taste of a good well. The local water company ended up drilling into our aquifer 10 years ago and it never tasted the same after that.
Good point BM. I can't remember where but I read something similar about iron cookware. Included it in a post about IDA I wrote some yrs back.
Goog post; very helpful. There are a lot of pro's and cons to frequent blood donation. You're postman help clear it up for some. ty +
There are some who need to give blood like those who have high BP are any medical issues.
I like reading posts like these but it does make me feel like my posts are total shit lol
No bro keep them coming. If 1 person gets something from your post then it's a good thing. Besides I liked your gloryhole post lol.
On top of that, giving blood on cycle lowers all that test in your blood. Average pints of blood in the human body is between 9 and 12. So when you give blood you give about 10% or a little more than 1 pint. lets say your test level was 4500. now take into consideration metabolization, shbg, last shot, e,t,c you could have just given up a little less than half the test levels you just took weeks to stabilize.
You do have a point IM. Dont think it's that much but none the less valid.
I'm glad you brought this up cause I donate to frequent and now have high rdw with low mch and mcv. Might trt doc told me to go every 16 weeks but I thought he was crazy. So from the normal 8 weeks I switched to 10- 12. I read after you donate they say to take an iron pill for 56 days and it takes 12 weeks for iron to restore. My bank only checks hemoglobin.
That is exactly why I wrote this. The fix is at the bottom of the page the last link. 60 days of supplementation.
Yeah the actual iron pill fucked my stomach up. I bought another version that doesn't Fuck with the stomach. Good read bro!
What form of iron messed with stomach and what are you taking now?
I ordered a feratin supp with 5mg iron. The other was like 65mg.
I take a multi with 18mg of Carbonyl iron with no ill effects. No as harsh or toxic as other iron supps.
http://www.bloodjournal.org/content/67/3/745.long?sso-checked=true
I'm gonna check my multi vit when I get home. Thanks for the info!