+ 6 HCG open discussion
This post is for cycling as well it is a open discussion so feel free to ask questions, awnser questions, and contribute.
We will be discussing LH's role, what is hcg, how to use hcg on trt and how it relates to cycling and all things hcg.
*HCG (human chorionic gonadotropin or human chorionic gonadotrophin) is structurally similar to LH (Leutinizing Hormone).
*LH is sent from the pituitary and signals the testes to make testosterone
*HCG mimicks LH in the body and will definately have an effect on the HPTA and WILL suppress
leutinizing hormone secretion. (This is why blasting it at the end of cycle is not recommended as well as desensitization)
*Leutinizing Hormone actually stimulates, at least in men with low adrenal function, the cholesterol to pregnenalone pathway and thus may help some men in later stages of adrenal fatigue. (As you are starting to see LH plays many roles besides keeping your nuts full as they say)
Important - The male testicles are like a muscle when not used the shrink and become less effective over time. Running 500-1000 iu a week ON CYCLE (usually split into two or three doses) will continue to stimulate the testes keeping your natural test/sperm production alive which will speed your recovery up as well as the other benifits listed above. You want to keep the leydig cells working THROUGHOUT your cycle.
Read these :
http://www.CENSORED.com/Testosterone_HCG.aspx
http://www.CENSORED.com/Benefits_HCG_Men_TRT.aspx
Watch these :
https://CENSORED.com
https://CENSORED.net
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Would hcg help boost free testosterone? I've been off cycling for almost a year my total test came back at 544 but my free test was 7.0 out if a minimum of 8.7. I was thinking of doing a 500mg a week for ten weeks to see if this boosts it if not any other suggestions?
Pounds23Maybe try adding some provirion
Hmm I dunno what was your shbg I wonder ?
If your thinking of running hcg off cycle I wouldn't it will supress your natural LH I turn lowering your test once stopped this another reason it's not recommended blasting it for pct
This is an interesting read on the subject :
http://www.peaktestosterone.com/Free_Testosterone_SHBG.aspx
Can you pin HCG and test in the same pin?
(I have read a shit ton on this site, used the search bar, and I simply have struck out on finding any info on this particular subject. I'm guessing it's been mentioned a time or two, but apparently I'm a bad sleuth today. My apologies if this has been covered already but I'm too blind to see what's right in front of me. Ugh!)
You absolutely can. I've been doing it for few years now, I have done it both ways, as well as tried IM versus SubQ once (subQ on its own, not with other comp's), never noticed any differences with speed of response or efficacy
Thank you for your input, brother! +1 for the share
I read that adding test & hcg (in bac water) will "look like a lava lamp." I tried it. My first instinct was, "how did all of those air bubbles get in there?!?!" But nope, it's simply water & oil suspensions doing what they do. Pinned it (glutes) with no troubles. Thank you for your input!
Thanks for the info. I've never run hcg during a cycle but the more I read the more I want to. I was thinking of doing 250IUs three times a week. Figured that will be enough to keep my balls from shrinking but not enough to desensitize the LH function.
250 twice a week works if its good hcg imo i like to do my hcg shot the day before my test shot (24 hours prior) help keep those valleys/dips in my levels higher my last test levels capped out at 1500 on 200mg a week ive dialed it back to 160mg
Aldo OgibandogiBeen talking to different clinics and their HCG protocols are all different. Mine had me on 500iu. another clinic says all their clients do 500iu twice a week. Some go a month on one month off, two weeks on two off, or never come off. Does the HCG negatively affect the effectiveness of AI's IYO?
Not at all just like your natty lh wouldn't
What's your position on adding HMG to the mix?
Had someone ask me that today I've honestly never ran it and don't know a whole lot about it I won't bullshit you from what I read it can be used when Clomid/nolva doesn't effectively restart your natty test (I've read in conjunction with not in place of) but I really don't know much more than that. If you have info on it by all means share with the group haha
Some basic info regarding HMG I discovered:
* If you need more testosterone than sperm production then use HCG to stimulate the Leydig cells of the testes.
* If you wish greater sperm production use HMG.
* Can use HMG along with HCG to get both greater sperm and testosterone production and testicular enlargement faster.
* There are many ways to dose HMG depending on your goals.
* Some docs encourage the use of HCG and HMG together to increase fertility
+1. I second the motion twistedsister stated.
Contributions like this are what makes this site great
Nice I mat have to give it a try I'm working on another kid myself man the one I gave is growing so fast it's crazy haha +1
I don't know enough about it either, and haven't researched enough to comment with confidence. All I've researched so far is in line w/what you're saying; I need to dive deeper. Hoping someone might have some insight to share on this thread.
What were the benefits of low daily doses of HCG? I do have a low libido (well lower than what I was at) and my doctor recommended increasing the HCG to increase libido. I have been looking into Human Menopausal Gonadotropin also, which seems promising. Has anyone tried this for HRT?
HMG is too expensive to run for purpose of increasing libido. It is just not enough to have a significant affect on testosterone levels. It is used for fertility. I have no natural testosterone production thanks to a tumor, and I have run hCG eod to maintain test levels at 400 to 500.
So the big advantage of smaller, more frequent shots appear to be
a) Continous and even conversion of cholesterol into pregnenalone (this one is a big one)
b) Less ups and down in HCG levels and, therefore, testosterone and estradiol levels.
c) The fact that it can be given subQ (subcutaneously) since it is usually a small volume injection. This makes it a perfect candidate for daily shots if one has the time and patience.
Taken from -
http://www.peaktestosterone.com/HCG_Daily.aspx
DCHI1I've had great success with 250iu 2x week while one cycle. Keeps em full.
Running 300 iu twice a week and injecting the hcg the day before my test injection definitely liking that protocol and my nuts hang nice and low lol
Aldo OgibandogiI've heard of some nasty sides like lack of sensation and permanent libido problems if done continuously not to mention aromatizing problems. doc has me on 500 a week. Is it just for show? These oldman balls could use a tuck anyways! Would it be better to do it when need be and no longer than a month? The potency on hcg also diminishes after a month I have heard of people freezing excess quantities
only once constituted,I just used some that was ten years old from the old signature pharmacy that was shut down.Only took 10,000 iu over two weeks 2000 iu at a time balls came back and bloods show LH and FSH high as to be expected.I did use a arimidex to keep estrogen to a minimum but did get some nipple response.Starting standard pct now ai and clomid.
I was told by a pharmacist that it would be too old and the peptides would have degraded but blood work proved otherwise.Of course this guy had some to sell me.
You don't want to freeze it and I believe it starts to diminish at a rate of 10 percent after the first 60 days of reconstitution (don't quote me I'll check) but that's a good question I'll have to post the info on here I've shared it before but it's buried somewhere at any rate it's not much to be concerned with if it's a 5000 iu vial then it should last 10 weeks Ii couldn't see it degrading enough to be concerned with...
And no it's not for looks the body uses LH for many things as alot of the info on here shows.
I feel alot better overall adding it into my protocol personally.
When you get time watch those YouTube videos there's some really interesting info in there.
The man speaking is the owner of discount labs and defy medical I believe
Aldo OgibandogiI found out about the degradation after a month & freezing for a later date from sights that sell HCG for the diet they said never to buy 10000iu unless 2 people are using it because it will go to waste. I will check out those videos. I just started to split weekly dose. Do you have any info on HCGs affect on AI's. Gyno prone I'm on .5 anastrozole which i do M/W/F with the HCG at 250mcg on T/F with test on M/THUR
What hcg are you on prescribed or UG ?
Also the awnser to your estro question is covered below
Their is a link and discussion with the other member..
Aldo OgibandogiI was prescribed 5000iu and have two 11000iu vials on standby.
Well I don't recommend freezing it but apparently you are correct. It makes sense because freezing is part of the lyophilization process that HCG must go through before it can be dispensed, so it's probably safe to say that freezing it once or twice doesn't significantly affect its potency but there's really no need to freeze it imo I have 5000 iu , 10,000 iu, and 11,000 iu vials here on hand.
I also found this from a representative of empower pharmacy a compounding pharamacy here in the U.S. he says -
"There is long term stability studies showing that HCG in its dried state loses less than 5% of its activity in the first 3 years (see attached chart). Once reconstituted the effects of hydrolysis degrade the molecule much quicker. I've seen potency over time tests from my analytical lab show degradation of 10% in the first 90 days"
This forum is for hcg discussion
I agree, although I use significantly more than you recommend. Currently I'm using 1500 IU 2x a week, I cut my testosterone down to 150 Mg weekly and use Arimidex .5 EOD.
I would recommend at the end of a cycle adding clomid to kick start the pituitary.
You will keep much more of your gains with a quick recovery.
Good post
Right now I'm running 500 iu twice a week and 200mg of test with .25 mg adex e3d my AI probably should be more in your range I'll have to see where my bloods are at I work above 8,000 ft so I been fighting my cbc's with regular donation and baby aspirin. Not a bad protocol bro . I was reading a study the other day where guys were doing daily (low dose) shots of hcg and it had some interesting benefits.
Would you use it all cycle long if it was a 20 week cycle? i heard that would be the long but always have done it so far.
I would use it starting from the time I would start to shut down (depending on the ester so test e second or 3rd week) all the way through.
It wouldn't be to long no not in the least in fact the longer the cycle the more necessary the hcg imo.
Also HCG will to tend to maximize the activity of aromatase itself, which is the enzyme that converts testosterone to estradiol.
"Beware of AIs with HCG. I have read that they are largely ineffective with HCG because the aromatization takes place inside the testicles as opposed to in other tissues with exogenous (injected) T. The AI is out numbered in the testicles because of high concentration of aromatization, and so it crashes your serum E2 while doing nothing for your E2 symptoms. This is consistent with my AI experience where even 0.25 every week would crash me in 2-3 weeks, despite a huge amount of HCG."
That's why I say running your estro a little higher will not hurt if anything you can always add a low dose of nolvadex
read:
http://www.peaktestosterone.com/hcg_estradiol.aspx
so its better to block the estro instead of aromatase?I went with the arimidex because my doctor went with it but I did get some nipple itch anyway.So I can see you point.Also my dose was very high since I am a ten year trt user.
Imo Yes a serm would be effective. Tamoxifen or maybe even fareston (toremifene).
Aldo OgibandogiThen why are doctors running HCG and anastrozole as protocol does it not defeat the purpose? And if your going to run Tamoxifen would liver damage be inevitable? You chewed me out once for wanting to run Nolvadex for a year you said my liver would shut down.... lol i'm just busting your balls ;)
My question is what exactly are you losing by not running HCG throughout cycle? Does it really help you recover your natty test quicker, or is it more for keeping the testes larger during cycle. We've all seen countless posts on here with bloodwork before/after which has shown full recovery without HCG.
This is a quote from one of the links you posted:
" Protection from TRT Failure. Tying into #3 and #4 is the fact that HCG (generally) keeps the testes "alive." Although this has not been formally studied as far as I know, keeping the testes fully functional could potentially help preserve testosterone production if one has to go off of TRT "
The key word/phrases there are: "potentially" and "not formally studied"; unfortunately, most of this research is anecdotal and I get it, we will never see a funded study for this as there is no money in it for the pharmaceutical companies.
I guess what I am getting at is that there are pros/cons with running hcg. For a standard 12 week cycle, do i really want to complicate things with additional meds and have to fight e2 from the HCG along with the other compounds for the "possibility" of a better recovery. I want to run the least amount of compounds possible--I don't want to run nolva unless absolutely necessary as that has its own host of side effects.
The e2 conversion is one of the things that turns me off about HCG--estro is hard enough to control with traditional compounds and adding HCG just complicates matters.
I agree that running HCG makes sense, but I feel that it is more geared to the TRT guys who may still want kids or who want to improve the size of the testes, and I guess you could add in pro bodybuilders who cycle heavily. For the standard user, I am not convinced it is necessary.
LH is sent from the pituitary and signals the testes to make testosterone
Or you can be shut down and they shrivel up for weeks at a time and your telling me you don't believe this aids in recovery
Dont pussy neg because you dont like ones opinion.
Fr sent I want to know why your on my shit
It's only pussy negging if you don't say something and I changed to a plus. -1 for shitting on my post this is for hcg not to be cluttered with bullshit
Did you look at the picture right below you it lists a study where heavy doses of anabolics were administered and hcg maintained testicular function. Also did you watch the YouTube videos I linked to this forum explaining the roles of LH in the male body ?
Your kidding right did you read any of the information included or are you trolling my post right now. It mimics LH which in turn stimulates your testes and keeps natural test production alive it preserves testicular function yes
Regardless if your not convinced do your own research try and save money or whatever it is you do. I've provided you with links here and because of the word possibility in one you are trying to discredit it.
The science is there.
This forum is listed under trt btw.
Of course I did, I don't comment unless I've done my own due diligence and I'm too old to be trolling posts. You said this was an open discussion, so I was just raising a concern for the standard user. You get too defensive brother. If you post on here and ask for an open discussion, expect one to happen. This has nothing to do with saving money and I am not trying to discredit the research either.
I am saying that there has been thousands of posts on here of people running cycles without HCG and recovering fine. Can it be better, sure, but that comes with a risk. You mentioned it yourself. You can crash your e2 with your ai while on HCG, yet still have estro symptoms. Is the risk/reward worth it? Maybe that risk is minimal, but it's enough for me to question using it. Particularly for a new user or someone like myself running a standard test cycle. HCG is beneficial, but is it really necessary? I guess that is for the user to determine, but for myself I've yet to be convinced. I am definitely not some expert on this and am trying to learn so hopefully more members can chime in who have ran cycles with and without HCG.
Thanks for an intelligent response and I see your point of view. It varies person to person some people recover good some don't at all and with longer cycles like 16-20 weeks especially including 19 nors this could potentially save someone's natty test. Personally the estro sides are not an issue for me but im not real sensitive to that.
My misunderstanding welcome to the discussion. I assumed you just speed read through it and were missing the point. Now I see your point is it really necessary for a standard 10-12 test only cycle .. I'd like to here some feedback as well.
No problem, I'm genuinely interested in this post. I have hcg on hand for my summer cycle and have been teetering back and forth on whether to use it. I'll be 41 soon so recovery isn't getting easier, but I'm sensitive to estro sides. I agree with ur dosing--I'd would go lower doses throughout the cycle rather than blast at the end. I was worried about leydig desensitization from running hcg for weeks on end, but I've found studies which show that doesn't occur as long as doses are reasonable. On the surface, it seems like a no-brainer, but there is always an inherent risk with adding new compounds. This is a good post on a difficult topic which needs some clarity.
Well yeah but your body needs LH to regulate cholesterol among other things low doses of hcg wouldn't cause desensitization in the same way your natural LH wouldn't cause desensitization does that make sense ? That's why I recommend running your normal doses for AI and if you find estro sides arise add a low dose of nolvadex I'll be doing a post on nolvadex soon but the two are synergistic in releasing natural test because oddly enough high estrogen is what shuts your test production down via the negative feedback loop and Nolva has an effect on blocking the pituitary from sensing any estrogen in the body and this in turn stimulates the hypothalamus to send messages to the pituitary to secrete LH.