Low T or overtraining? Lab test questions
Hello everyone,
I've got a quick question for you older guys out there. I've been training consistently for a couple of years now and recently I've noticed that I am having a terrible time recovering from heavy training days (heavy by natural standards - squat and deadlift sessions of about 1hr and within the 80-95% of 1RM range). I've had heavy DOMS in the past but this seems different. It almost feels like I'm sick - achy, lethargic, moody. These symptoms, along with a drop in libido were cause for a little concern, so I got my T levels tested through a local TRT clinic.
Note: I've never used AAS or prohormones, only trib, DAA, arachidonic acid for test boosters
My results were:
Total test -
Free test -
Stats:
34 y/o 6'1" 225 lbs 18%BF (held mostly around waist and hips, coming off a recent bulk, I usually stay in the 14-18% range)
The TRT doc says my levels are low for my age and offered immediate treatment but I'm cautious because I know that sometimes these places just push test will little concern for anything else. I've cleaned up my diet and I'm following up with a GP for more blood tests to rule out any other health problems.
My question is - are these symptoms similar to what you TRT guys experienced before you got treatment or is this possibly just natural aging and a case of overtraining?
Any help is greatly appreciated.
Edit- all lab values removed due to privacy concerns
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Update - decided against TRT, cleaned up my diet, added more cardio. Blood tests revealed no other health problems than the lower range test levels. All health markers good.
Currently 3 weeks in on a 500mg test only cycle and I feel fucking great (obviously lol). All the symptoms I had are gone. Fingers crossed that PCT and reboot goes smoothly. Thanks again for all of your help.
Hey guys, just a quick follow up. I got the results of my second set of blood tests and just wanted a little input.
So, as far a hormones go, I tested at the bottom of the spectrum again
total test
LH
FSH
Estradiol was ok
I'm obviously not an MD but maybe these numbers are an indication of borderline/ future hypogonadism?
Also, with levels this low, I'm guessing that going on cycle could be dangerous as far as going off/ PCT? If I am this low now maybe a post cycle crash could fuck things up?
So as far a general health is concerned, everything looks ok (thyroid, blood, liver all ok) with the exception of:
BUN/ creatine ratio - I've read that this can be elevated due to high protein diet/ creatine supplements so I am going to ask the doc later this month
LDL is a little high but total is good, Is this going to be a concern while using AAS? I know that testosterone affects chol levels
I know this is a lot to go through so any help is appreciated.
Edit- lab values removed
Test is only one component of blood work. Did you have your thyroid, estrogen and glucose levels tested?
I don't know much about test boosters. Do they potentially have adverse effects on the body's hormone feedback loop?
I'm 45 yo and I rotate between 5 days between workouts one cycle and then 6 days the next. This seems to be ideal for me in as far as recovery goes. I can no longer maintain 4 days between working out the same body part. I think part of this is attributable to the number of sets and training intensity I employ, particularly with negatives and drop sets.
I hope you get everything sorted. Maybe get a recommendation to an endo if your problems persist. But the guys below are spot on. I wouldn't employ TRT except as a last resort based on your current levels.
I've got an appt with the doc in a few weeks for a complete check up. Your resting plan makes sense. I follow Wendler 5-3-1 4 day/ wk powerlifting. I'm taking a week off and I'm probably going to reevaluate my training volume. Thanks for your reply.
@THE_MECHANIC, I just wanna add my voice as one of many to this post, so take my words for what they are. (Free words on an AAS website from a dude who is telling you, I can relate and am rooting for you.)
Clinically, your T numbers aren't "low." Some guys feel like dog shit at 500 with plenty of symptoms that betray low T (trouble with erection, lethargic, etc) while some men feel just fine at 300 and wake up with rock hard morning wood everyday. We're all different, and know one knows your body better than you know it.
As always, LISTEN TO YOUR MIND AND BODY.
Your mind obviously doesn't want to inject testosterone, so anyone that gives you advice to the contrary is simply projecting THEIR goals onto yours. (The eroids vets here will actually encourage a guy to NOT start AAS until all options to the contrary have been exhausted. AAS is a huge commitment that is a pain in the ass, literally and figuratively. We preach safety, safety, safety, both in the gym as well as with AAS, always, end of story. Be safe. I digress.)
All this said, you're on the right track. You're a smart dude, regarding your physiology. I'm simply gonna encourage you to keep going the route you're going. A body that has lower body fat % usually translates to higher T numbers and a better overall sense of well being.
I also want to encourage you to identify stress in your life and do your best to mitigate it. Stress is a killer. You won't recover from the gym if you've got something emotionally weighing you down. Deal with what you have to deal with, then let go of all that bullshit. (You sound like you're wired like most of us here, that you like to work hard and lift hard, so I'm betting you lift to burn off your daily/weekly emotional baggage as much as you lift to work on your body & strength, etc. I can relate, all too well.)
Lasly, SLEEP IS KEY TO RECOVERY. I've heard it said, "muscle is built in three places. The gym, the kitchen, and sleeping." It is so fucking true. Most people talk about lifting and diet all the time but forget about talking about the third component. Best you can, get good rest.
If you go six months with a kick ass diet, plenty of sleep, and more or less "stress free" (of course we all always have some level of stress in our lives, but you know what I'm trying to relay to you by saying "get rid of stress," like, finish your projects, deal with relationships that need dealing with, and let go of old grudges and/or negativity, etc) but you still feel like you're "constantly broken," only then would I even consider the thought of any AAS, and still then, consider every alternative you can consider before pinning, ever. That's just me, so I'm one voice of many to help add to your journey.
There are plenty of guys who lift heavy well into their late 50s and early 60s, all natural. Yes, genetics plays a big role, but it's also mental strength. Get rest, mitigate your stress, mitigate your injuries, and you'll achieve all you hope to, no doubt.
Brother, keep us posted here on occasion, even if it's months and months later. It's always good to hear how our fellow brothers are doing with their goals & health. Kick some ass and take no prisoners! -ZeusM
Thanks for taking the time to give your input. I think you're right, maybe I should get back to the basics.
I've tightened up the diet and I'm thinking those extra couple bf points on the last bulk weren't so great, lol. When I leaned out last spring I had way more energy so you might be onto something there. Of course the weight gains meant better lifting numbers but I guess you can't have everything. I'm going to reevaluate in a couple months after follow up bloods and make decisions from there. Thanks again.
I hadn't looked at your other threads, so I see you've been doing your research about doing a proper cycle. You're in good hands here at eroids. These lads preach SAFETY for a reason. This shit gets dangerous. One wrong pin, and you have an infection that can take your life. The Dark Side is a dangerous game if not played correctly.
Again, you're on the right path to purse this thing naturally without AAS. AAS has its advantages, but the lifestyle change from natty to drugs is a large leap. I took the leap, but if I didn't feel that I "have to," I wouldn't. There's simply no replacing your natural homeostasis. Nothing in the drug world matches it, regardless of how big or strong people get. Being on this side of the AAS fence now, I wish my body didn't have low T. It does, so I deal with it, cuz I know my body better than anyone else does.
For me, I use low dose AAS as medicine. I simply doubt I'll ever do heavy cycles, cuz my goal is basically to "be healthier." Thus, after a few blood tests and one blood donation, I'm still figuring my own body out.
Feel free to PM me if you have questions regarding low dose AAS, but I am in no way saying you should "try it bro!" at all. I'm simply a guy who's been through some shit and trying to help other men make good, informed decisions regarding their (your) own health.
The only compounds I've used are primobolan and test cyp, both in low doses. I've been slow, conservative, and I have benefited greatly from low dose AAS. I feel great, but not because "I feel great!" but rather, because I'm healed. I was so sore and busted up for so long. My natty state was strong, but broken. With low dose AAS, I'm simply strong and healed. I needed it and it has given me a new outlook on life, but not in a euhporic way. I'm still tired, but now that I'm healed, I can just go out and do my best to kick ass everyday, just like before AAS, but since I'm healed, I can just keep going instead of breaking down on myself.
Within a month of my first pin of low dose T, I felt like I was healing. Two months in, I added low dose primobolan and within another month, I WAS HEALED. Three total months of AAS and I was a "fixed up used car."
My old shoulder injury was totally healed, my day to day body was healed, and it was magic. Sure, I still get sore from a long day working or a hard workout, but if I can get 8 hours of full sleep, I'm 97% healed by morning. This is all from low dose.
I admit, I miss being natty. I'm a slave to the pin now (I'm almost 39) but my quality of life is so much better since I'm not perpetually sore and lethargic. I won't go back to natty, not if I can help it, but that's me. If YOU can stay natty and keep kicking ass, do it for as long as you can!!!
I truly have low T. It sucks, sucks, sucks, but so be it, I'm not a whiner or quitter. I will keep hacking and scrapping until they put me in the ground! You sound like you have the same mentality as me, so if my own experiences can help you, please ask. Cheers brother!
Hey brother, thanks again for your input. I've been all over these boards in the last week soaking up as much knowledge as I can and have gotten some great input from some good people. I will send you a PM with some questions. Thanks again.
Anytime, and I am an open book brother. I'm grateful to this community for holding my hand when I was low, and I'll do my best to pay it forward, always.
Rustyhooker436 isnt low. Trt doc in the clinic or phd endocrinologist?
Doc in a box clowns are there to make sales
Hey Rusty, thanks for the reply. Just the clinic MD. That is the feeling I got, seemed more like a salesman and he was a little too eager to jab a needle in my ass without doing further testing. He said there was "no other real alternative".
So you think I can rule out Low T as the cause of the symptoms? I'm just getting old? lol
RustyhookerComing off cycle kicks in the older feeling til I get back to normal. Pct finished and about a month of blah after. You go from superman 25 to reality. Horney goat weed seems to give me a better pickup. There's a lot of info on the net about its actions.
Doc in the box can be handy if you can swing 1000 for trt when its needed. But again, the sources have pharma for 80. Then bloods are 60 to keep hormone levels and health in check.
Yeah, I've heard that coming off sucks and that is why a lot of guys TRT or "blast and cruise". The TRT clinic was relatively inexpensive - $200-$300 month (cash, no insurance) but the protocol was pretty cookie cutter - everyone gets 200mg Test C every two weeks. Seems like that wouldn't do much other than shut down my natural production?
RustyhookerWhy would someone purposely kill their natural test levels with trt? It's not like you're going to be ifbb pro or get paid for modelling.
Lol! Exactly my point. I'm a powerlifter not a bodybuilder anyway. But if I had listened to the doc, I could be on my way to some serious fucking problems. If the advice on my levels I'm getting here is right, that is really an unethical way to do business. I wonder how many people have been hurt by them...
I'm just looking for answers to my recovery/ fatigue problems. Looks like my options are to run a cycle or two a year or just man up and accept getting older. I've heard that HGH is excellent for recovery, you have any experience with it?
I know 2 people using HGH, one reckons its not worth the money and you'd be better off taking more steroids,the other loves it although he takes a higher dose than the first person. Testosterone and AAS certainly help improve your recovery and strength but not in TRT doseages especialy as you don't have very low T levels. Your choice at the end of the day.
Thanks for your input. HGH does seem pretty expensive but if it is everything it is hyped up to be, it might be worth it. I'm a little concerned that my levels might be low enough to get completely shutdown with a cycle. If I'm 430ish now, who knows where I'd bottom out on a PCT? Sounds like hell to me lol
You need to drop your training quantity not necessarilly poundages when coming off as your recovery goes way down,I've never bothered with any AI or PCT and bounce back withing 2 months (our doctor tested us 2 months after cessation of AAS to check our bloods were normal again or near normal). I feel a bit down and low energy for a couple of weeks and struggle to keep the poundages up after about 4 weeks off, usualy reduce poundages at that point. Trouble is everybody reacts differantly so you do need to experiement and have AI on hand in case (sore tits first sign if it persists start AI). Great when your on though
RustyhookerHgh is way out of my budget. I'm reading up on peptides between cycle. Im older but still pct. Theres some good powerlifters here. Helpful dudes.
Community....groups....peptide group.
Thanks Rusty! You are the man! I appreciate your help.
436 is nowhere near the 200-300 min range for TRT. I would think about this because TRT is for life.
I said the same thing to the doc, he said 200-300 was "clinically low" but my levels were "too low for someone physically fit at 34". I'm not looking to jump into TRT for no reason but would like to get more out of my training and would like to figure out what is going on with my poor recovery.