+ 15 Spinning your Wheels
So you want to do the famous recomp for your cycle. Your goal is to gain 15lbs of muscle and lose 10-15lbs of fat or you want to go from 185 and 15% BF up to 200 and only 8% BF. I applaud you for your lofty goal but unfortunately I am seeing this type of scenario way to often now in the cycle section. So I am here to tell you now that you will be spinning your wheels chasing your goal of the ultimate recomp. It is nothing but a pipe dream and it is a very inefficient way to utilize AAS unless you are one of the gifted few. “But why” you may ask,“I am taking steroids and they are magical beans that can accomplish anything.” Let me tell you why the recomp is a mythical beast. I’ll try to keep it short and simple.
Here are the cliff notes: You need a calorie surplus to build muscle and you need a calorie deficit to lose fat. Simple as that. So if you can figure out how to be in a calorie surplus and a calorie deficit at the same time you will probably win the Noble prize and we will all be doing recomps from now on. No need for cutting and bulking cycles from now on.
So if a recomp is a foolish idea, what do you do.? If you have to lose fat then just lose the damn fat. Really no need for AAS to achieve this unless you are getting into the mid-single digit body fat range. Once you have done that, then start adding muscle with a sane calorie surplus while minimizing additional fat gain. The lower you are in body fat when you start your cycle, the more wiggle room you have to put on some fat in your attempt at maximizing overall muscle mass. Don’t be afraid of going from 7 to 12% BF or from 10 to 15% during your bulk. Don’t freak out now because you are gaining additional body fat. Do your bulk properly and you will have minimal fat to lose so it won’t be that big of deal. Or you can just keep spinning your wheels thinking you will become huge and ripped all in the same cycle.
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So how do you view this differently than your posts on cyclical bulking? Isn't that an attempt to minimize fat gain during a bulk by keeping surplus relatively low (.5-1.5 lb/wk) and then resetting every 4th week? Correct me if I'm wrong of course.
And do you follow that same diet on cycle? You mention that you run it and have had success while off, so just wondering
The key word here is minimizing fat gain. You are not going to be losing fat and gaining muscle at the same time. I don't think you need to keep the surplus low here and I would advise against it. You are kind of defeating the whole purpose. By cyclic bulking you can keep the surplus high and minimize the fat gain due to optimizing your insulin levels. I would go for 750-1000 above TDEE. The beauty of the cyclic bulking concept is that you are able to keep your nutrient partitioning geared more towards lbm gains and lesser for fat. You will gain some fat though and once you notice that the majority of your weight gain is shifting to primarily fat gain instead of lbm gain then you do the mini cut to reset your insulin sensitivity and get your nutrient partitioning geared back to primarily lean mass gains again. When off cycle you may notice that you have to do the mini cut sooner and more often because when you are on cycle the AAS improves your nutrient partitioning so you can then stay at a higher calorie limit for a longer time before you start becoming insulin resistant.
Thanks for the clarification. Got it, so like 250 extra above the numbers you listed on your actual post on cyclical bulking? Ie
Wk 1: +500
Wk 2: +750
Wk 3: +1000
Wk 4: back to TDEE
(Conservative with the first week)
And by mini cut are you referring to just going 250 under TDEE? Or spending 2-3 weeks at a normal deficit of 500-1000?
But point noted on the partitioning effects of AAS
We might be on different pages here. This is what I refer to with cycling bulking. You just keep you cals elevated for as long as possible and then do a mini cut to reset everything when you feel you need to.
https://www.eroids.com/forum/general/general-talk/the-key-to-quality-mas...
I also guess in a way with the above protocol you are also cycling calories by increasing them on a weekly basis, but with that method you are not doing any mini-cuts where you would be below your TDEE like you would be doing with the cyclic bulking method. You are just readjusting your TDEE to account for your additional mass and then continuing on with the weekly calorie increases. Readjusting to your new TDEE is enough to reset your insulin sensitivity since it is a fairly drastic drop from the previous week and will help shock the metabolism. Try out both methods and see what works for you.
Yeah I was referring to this post you had written:
https://www.eroids.com/forum/general/general-talk/i-know-my-tdee%E2%80%A...
This one is from 2015, so is it your updated view on the topic of cyclical bulking?
But regarding the article you linked, I see and agree with your style. Would you also drop carbs relatively low (say 50-100g from probably around 300-400 on the bulking weeks) in order to further help with insulin sensitivity when returning to bulk? Or does the calorie drop take care of that enough?
Then continuing the discussion on AAS and their nutrient partitioning ability, tell me if I am on the right track by constructing a basic template to contrast the same diet on/off cycle
On l Off
Week 1: +500-625 cal (Start of Bulk) l Week 1: +250-375 cal (Start of Bulk)
Week 2: +625-750 cal l Week 2: +375-500 cal
Week 3: +750-875 cal l Week 3: +500-625 cal
Week 4: +875-1000 cal l Week 4: +625-750 cal
- On cycle could continue this on 2-4 more weeks, probably staying same calorie level, but going until LBM l don't have benefits of AAS partitioning) l
Probably going to have to stop bulk here becauseprogress stops)
Week 5: -500 cal l Week 5: -250 cal
Week 6: -750 cal (depending on fat needed to lose by duration of previous bulk) l Week 6: -250 - 500 cal (same reasoning as on cycle)
i.e. 4 weeks on- 2 week cut, 6 week- 3, etc but up to interpretation based on how bulk went
Second week could even be optional on cycle! Really could only need one to just reset metabolism and continue gains
Sorry if this is unpleasant to look at but I have to write things out like this to visualize/make sense of them
So then reasons for the above and the differences between:
- Have a range of calories to go with. One more conservative and trying to hold off fat gain a little more, and one taking more advantage of the surplus and going all out
(ie. +1 to +1.75lb/wk being conservative on cycle, +1.25 - +2lb/wk more aggressive, with 2 pounds really being the upper limit, maybe 2.5, as the upper limit, as from what I've seen online, even on cycle (assuming it's not your first and you are relatively well trained like you should be when starting a cycle) the body can only synthesize so much new muscle tissue at a time, so giving extra calories above that level will just lead to more fat gain with no additional muscle gain- even with the partitioning help of AAS)
off cycle the surplus is much more controlled because it's very hard to put on muscle naturally (again assuming experienced lifting of 8+years) and 3-4 lbs/month is impressive, but we still want to push the boundaries in the later weeks in trying for up to 1.5 lb/wk because we know a mini cut is approaching, so why not try and get every last ounce we can
-Generally a 2:1 ratio of bulk to cut seems good from a general consensus, but again this can be altered based on how much fat you put on during the bulk (you might only have to cut for 1 week just to reset the metabolism and not really have to try to take off to much fat. Especially likely on cycle)
You can handle a greater deficit on cycle because of AAS muscle sparing benefits, meaning more of this weight lost will be fat and muscle will be preserved
Off cycle, you don't have this luxury, and if away from cycle you could probably do -500 deficit the entire duration of the mini cut, any time close to PCT where you are more catabolic, it would be wise to hold the deficit minimal to preserve muscle mass gained on cycle, but we still want that deficit to again reset the metabolism and increase insulin sensitivity etc
I think this is really interesting for planning to keep gains coming off cycle b/c you could plan for your last 2 week mini cut to be the last 2 weeks of your cycle, where gains are most likely to be beginning to slow/stall anyways and still take advantage of the muscle preservation to take off 2-3 lbs of fat, then hop on the conservative numbers listed in the off cycle to try to keep making slight progress even while on PCT (might have to keep calories more constant b/w +250-500 b/c your'e not going to be building much muscle if any at all on PCT, we just want to preserve what we worked for.
-Then after 4 weeks of PCT spent holding onto muscle we can do a 1-2 week cut at -250 to reset (again not trying to overdo it on fat loss) and then begin to bulk again for 2-4 weeks and next cut can be back to -500
-Would love critique on this idea, because I HATE EATING AT MAINTENANCE! Even if its just slight surpluses/deficits, this approach at least would make me feel like I'm going somewhere/working towards something and not just spinning my wheels/waiting.
Anyways sorry for the long reply/write up, but this conversation really gets me going and I want to learn/find what's optimal and even try and push something new if need be.
So really tear into that and bring it down so I can build it back up better! Maybe I'll start this in a new thread if a conversation and critiques warrant it?
Time for a bump. Seeing to many lean bulk cycles.
Yeah bro. I'm getting ready to to a wet cut myself.
Hahahahha wet cut hahaha fucking epic
Bro sorry I fat fingered you there but I fixed it in your latest review.
A wet cutter sounds pretty tasty for my next prep.
DIET is everything in this game whether bulking or cutting. When people fail to maker the gains they desire its typically because there diet wasn't in proper order.
B-but, Mike O'Hearn says.....
great post. appreciate replies.. Will say though, there will probably eventually be a pill invoking the beta 3 receptor in fat cells that does enable fat loss without adrenal stimulation... but until then, or besides that point--must have either caloric surplus to gain and relative deficit to lose fat, plain and simple as shared by Makwa and other vets.
Lads, I've seen DEXA scans where people built muscle as well as lost fat during 12 week phases. It's possible to do both.
Here's the kicker.
It's simply more effective to focus on one goal or the other, which is EXACTLY what @Makwa is saying.
If it's time to lose your belly, drop your cals, get in that deficit, and your body uses its stored fat to make up the difference (aka-you burn fat). Switch your lifting routine up to more of a "maintain what you have" approach. Do more 4x8 or 4x12 type of routines.
If it's time to build muscle, get your protein up in your diet, eat over maintenance, lift heavy weights for low reps, rinse lather and repeat.
That being said, I've seen guys in my gym who have "been in a bulking phase" for decades. They basically spent the best physical part of their lives (their 20s and 30s) as fat fucks with big arms. What's the point of using AAS if you're just "big"?
Cut that belly and look good.
That is, unless your goal isn't focused on physique, of course.
Most of us wanna look better. Strong arms and a lean waist is how to get there. But there are some who are simply more concerned with strength, or athletic performance. Thus, looks aren't the goal. So no worries there.
Anyways, @Makwa above did a great job with his point in the original post. The comments below are great food for thought. Once again, eroids is the place to be to learn, learn, learn.
Have to kind of disagree on this one. KIND OF!
Yes, I agree that the most optimal way of using AAS is on gaining muscle mass and for cutting, it serves only a benefit to a small amount of people (Ie. People who are actually competing and getting into really low BF%)
Correct me if I got it wrong, but to me it seems that you're saying, you can't gain muscle in a deficit and you can't lose fat in a surplus, right?
Makwa, I know that you're a knowledgable guy so this might not be new to you;
The first law of thermodynamics says the following:
- When you are in energy surplus, your body stores energy.
- When you are in a deficit, your body loses energy.
They refer to the first law of thermodynamics (‘movement of energy’), also called the law of the conversion of energy. This law means energy cannot just disappear. It has to go somewhere. Building new fat or muscle cells requires energy and breaking them down releases energy.
Protein and fat are completely different functional compartments in the body. As a result, your body directs calories towards muscle and fat mass independently, this change in muscle and fat mass is what we know as P-Ratio.
So what this means is that your body needs protein and energy to build muscle tissue and if it gets enough protein from your diet, it just needs energy and this energy can be obtained from fat mass. The result is simultaneous fat loss and muscle growth. This is why you see a severe body recomposition for most people taking Tren ace. It's exactly this mechanism just in a much severe manner. The changes you see are on a daily basis and this is why you actually see them!
Similarly, your body is capable of storing fat while burning muscle. The conservation of energy law only means that you must gain energy in energy surplus and lose energy in a deficit. It says nothing about how these calories are partitioned or about how your body composition changes.
There are a couple of studies out there where high level athletes are on a caloric deficit and losing fat/gaining LBM at the same time. And now imagine taking AAS in addition to that.
I don't want people to read this and thinking my words are their excuse. There are a lot of things taking influence on the words said above and I want to say it one more time, do I think that a recomp is the most optimal way for most people?! NO! Absolutely not! When you're not either one of those people stated below and you really want to make use of AAS, or fat loss/muscle gaining, then I think Makwas words are the way to go.
great points here. Would rep you if I could
I was thinking recently about the "fat vs protein" compartment thing, and had no clue about the P-ratio. Makes sense now. Fat loss/muscle gain is not some "one step" thing. Our bodies are constantly building up and breaking down, all day every day. So I see no issue with trying to gain muscle while losing fat, with the understanding that it's simply going to be LESS muscle gain and LESS fat loss (or slower) than if one were in a huge deficit or surplus.
I have been dieting for 5 months now....on TRT for 18 months...and added in some low dose Deca to help with joints about 3 months ago. I am down 30 lbs now. Lifts are up, and I have definitely added a LITTLE bit of size/fullness to my muscles. Granted some of that can simply be better glycogen uptake, etc, due to the test/Deca, but I'm wililng to bet there's some MILD muscle gain there as well, seeing as my lifts go up almost every week.
Would be a great study to undertake, if AAS were legal, of course.
I wrote out something kind of on a different topic. I don't know how to delete, so I just edited to this instead. Instead of hijacking this thread I'll post my own haha.
Haha, yeah. Saw it and wrote kind of the same. Not really for you but more for the people hopping onto the Thread to get some info ;)
You can want in one hand and shit in the other...see what fills up faster... Understand your direction and quantify the results by either consuming a shit ton of calories, lifting heavy with more recovery time conserving calories to the rebuild and saturation, or lifting high rep, high intensity, with cardio added, consuming the same amount of a shit ton of calories... so as to utilize the majority of them, and if not all of the same amount of calories taken in.
I believe the calories supplied to the body must be relative. But the energy exerted must differ when leaning up or bulking. If your bulking, lift heavy eat a shit load...if your leaning up...lift for an aerobic amount of reps, and eat a shitload...add cardio and eat the same amount of calories. You will burn off more calories in an aerobic atmosphere lifting while not depriving your muscle of the nutrients it needs to sustain and repair. You will add mass consuming the same amount of calories with a less aerobic approach to lifting by hitting heavy weights with less reps and continuous uninterrupted intensity.
In my world the calories you need to eat should always be in abundance...the approach to your lifting should adjust...
This is a great read and thanks for bumping it. I totally agree with the Makwa's approach to bulking and agree with you. If your bulking you need to have a shit load of calories in, lift heavy and rest well. For me, particularly as I've gotten older, I have not been able to see the results I need when cutting with changing workout intensity and just adding cardio alone. This is always my first step but my fat loss plateaus pretty quickly and I enevitability have to create a greater energy deficit by reducing calories and changing my macros. Carbs reduce first for me (and I start to cycle them and then refeed when they get very low) and then I do drop protein (but not massively) when I get to the lower ranges. I'm careful here and for me it's a fine balancing act - especially if I'm cutting off AAS which I normally am.
Makwa's write up is indeed the truth! And well stated! Ultimately to lose fat, you both are right...must cut calories...
I have some family in for the holidays and I may have had one too many glasses of wine last night. I never drink so I got a little happy lets just say. And my response to this topic was basically me saying I never cut haha. I always eat a ton. But I do notice if I'm lifting a low amount of reps because the weight is super heavy...I gain weight faster than when I'm on a lower weight, mass rep schedule. When the latter is the case I still gain but slowly, and notice bf drops a bit.
Hahahaha. Truth right there bro.
Glad you're enjoying time with your family my friends and enjoy that vino - but not too much now ;-)
Roger that brother! Knuckles!
Dont chase 2 rabbits at once, because you wont get either
.
Instead, Focus on 1, Now your chances of success have doubled.
Body Composition 101.
Thanks man for another good reading from you! Keep posting!
I agree 1 million percent and excellent post BTW +1,... however there are some exceptions where it is possible to build muscle without a calorie surplus, not that it has anything to do with your point but just saying LOL
AnonGreat read, and a realistic point of view of achieving the picture in our mind vs actually having it come true, got to love the truth.
Tried the recomp, gave up. Turned it into a bulk with qualiy calories controlled diet and il strip fat after the bulk is done. Thats what's always worked. Donno why I tried it but Had to give it a shot tho with all this talk about it.
I dunno... I was raised that you grab your heavy gains during the fall/winter and clean it up in the spring/summer... Good post bro, its just too bad that post like this have to continually cycle thru LOL
Nicely done Makwa. Good explanation. +1
A well written and common sense truth brother! It's great to have lofty goals but they must be in the parameters of reality! The magical beans will fizzle if you are clueless! +2
RustyhookerI wish there was a way to do both....nope. bulk and repeat til your mass is up to par.
Now if posting this to forums will get folks to learn.
I've said it many of times, but people think I'm just trying to be a dick , just trying to tell them the truth. Sometimes the truth hurts. Many need to get in touch with reality , many goals are just too ridiculous and adding gear to it isn't going to make a fuck of a difference. I could rant and rave for a few paragraphs but its all things I've said before............
I forgot to comment on this earlier but it is the truth and I am going to post it right now in somebody's forum who is trying to do just this... SPIN THEIR FUCKING WHEELS!!
Unfortunately it isn't just members with these goals, there are "senior" members here advising folks this is an achievable goal. (No I'm not naming anyone). I've had pm's from someone this week discussing this exact same issue.
I'm old school, I know. Bulk, carve it up, repeat. Still works.
I agree bro, if it isn't broke don't try fixing it.
History does repeat its self lol
Old school man right here brother and I could not agree with you more!
Thank you bro. You said it. It needed to be said. It's the absolute truth. +2
AnonI read this and I laughed my fuckin ass off.... It is the raw truth
Well said. I was 248 when I started my current cycle. Now I'm 264 and growing. Sure I'd love to cut all my fat at the same time but would be foolish to use my gear and not maximize it to full effectiveness. Which for me means surplus calories and 400+ grams of protein. Can't lose anything eating 8 meals a day. That will be a different cycle with different compounds
zenshYou need a calorie surplus to build muscle and you need a calorie deficit to lose fat. Simple as that. So if you can figure out how to be in a calorie surplus and a calorie deficit at the same time you will probably win the Noble prize
The best advice one can get. I was also in a dream land thinking that i can build muscle and loose fat at the same time. but thanks that just in a very short period of time i have learnt great things here from experienced and dedicated people. A lot more to learn and i will keep following and looking forward to my senior's advice.
Thank you very much
Agree. Eating clean is the best one can shoot for, but one had still better be eating a LOT of clean calories, of the right type, at the right time.
There's a time to lose the belly, and there's a time to gain muscle, and never the twain shall meet.
And here I thought I could put on 15lbs of muscle in a calorie deficit. You know why people think this ridiculous scenario? Cause they want it all yesterday! Take the time and do it right the first time and apply that principle over and over again.
Here is a tip when you bulk: Keep your fats (especially saturated) to a minimum 10-20% tops. High protein and carbs. If you need to eat 5-6-7000 calories, your going to be eating protein and carbs out your ass.
As always keeping it real Makwa +2
zenshThats very true sir,
Eating high protein and carbs to bulk up. Its hard and needs lot of dedication but that's the rule and i'm glad i found it. A bit late but better than never
Hit me up anytime if you need anything brother. A day without improvement is a wasted day.