+ 9 Everyone says I need caber / prami, must be right
A long time ago I wrote up an article about not using AI's, a subject viewed with a little controversy and rightly so. So just to throw another little subject for discussion into the pot, let's talk about prolactin control.
I've noticed a lot of 2nd / 3rd / probably 15th hand information dished out about prolactin control compounds for anyone using 19 nors. Take a moment to look through the cycle logs, you'll see what I mean. "You'll need caber or you'll be lactating bro". "Use this dose, my bro said". Maybe this recycled information isn't correct.
Statistically not that many people will develop problematic levels unless high doses are used. Let me quantify that for you. 8 guys I had running test / deca cycles with the deca at up to 600mg /wk, only 2 of them developed elevated levels that needed intervention, neither of which were particularly high either. I've used 1g/wk of deca with no anti prolactin drugs multiple times and I've yet to be used in a dairy farm. The same applies in my case with tren at up to 700mg/wk, (I've never used higher). To quantify how much it can vary for individuals, my prolactin levels on 1g/wk were lower than 5 of the 8 people in this test, despite my dose being roughly double. Does that make me an anomaly? Kind of, but I'm not the only one.
My situation is a little different, I work in an environment where I can get bloods checked at the drop of a hat so I can rectify issues for myself and my guys quickly and effectively. That luxury isn't available to many.
So what am I trying to get across here? Don't use Caber etc? ABSOLUTELY NOT. What I am saying is a lot of you ingest compounds to deal with side effects you may have little or no disposition to. You waste your money, you advise others to do the same. Check it out, for a short term investment in blood work 3 or 4 times during a cycle you could save yourself from having to take these compounds. Not just money, all of this stuff is going through your system putting a strain on various organs potentially unnecessarily. Personally I don't want to take anything unless required. Find out if YOU really have to. Anyone using compounds like Deca and Tren should have a solid knowledge of cycles and compounds, enough that this should be logical to them and no revelation. If it is, put it away for further down the line when you've earned your stripes a little more.
Have your caber etc, but find out if there's a problem before you go ahead and swallow more pills to solve a possibly non existent issue because your "bro said".
- Bookmark
- 9
- 0
firebossI'm in total agreement with this post.
I think there was another post by catalyst, in which he let the cat out the bag and started all of us talking about cycle choices more taboo than most. Try and find it, it was a good one
firebossIll do it.Things and thoughts have changed over the years.
Everyone's different but the only way to know how your body reacts is blood work.
Bumping this thread was a very good read thanks cat.
RustyhookerOnly way to separate the wheat is as noted repeatedly, bloods. Good luck kibby!
Cheers rusty thanks for all your help buddy
I couldn't agree with this post more. Way too many people take thier personal experience and present it at though it will play out that same way for everyone. The undeniable truth is that is not true and everyone is different. You have to learn your body and how it reacts to different substances. However, an inexperienced user is likely to take advice from a more experienced user as one size fits all absolute truth and use/not use compounds they may or may not need based on that info. I say have the substances on hand but do not use until you have had blood work done on cycle enough to eliminate all variables and establish a solid precedence for how you will react. Great post +1
RustyhookerAny insight on Nolvadex allegedly causing prolactin issues? Just scanning thru med reports and Nolvadex was cited to lower prolactin in women. But bro science cites the Nolvadex will raise prolactin.
Brainstorming after reading. Back to resesrching...
Anonhttp://www.steroidal.com/anti-estrogens-pct/nolvadex/nolvadex-side-effects/
This article explains why all that broscience is bullshit.
RustyhookerI figured it was so! Back in the day all we had was Nolvadex on cycle and clomid pct. Med reports cite it lowers prolactin.
+2 bro for helping!
Absolutely. I ran close to a gram of tren this summer with no issues. Not even an AI at all cuz I was taking proviron and mast with it...and low test, like 400mg/wk. No issues. I have everything on hand tho. And I got my prolactin tested on deca b4, not an issue either then. Could always change tho, ya never know. Plan for the worst and hope for the best
Absolutely D, the next one might be different.
Well said. Unless one knows exactly how their body will respond to compounds they are taking, they don't know whether or not to use drugs to counter act the side effects appropriately. I try to recommend having everything on hand to the newbies, as they simply do not have the experience of advanced members under their belt to know how they will respond. If you've done several cycles, then you should have some sort of idea how your body reacts. I always think its better to have everything on hand and not need it, then to have an oh shit moment and scramble to get everything you now require.
Edit: grammar, and to add this.
I've run two deca bulking cycles, and I too had no need for caber or prami, except for one brief moment lasting two weeks. (Could have been due to anxiety during this period from personal issues) I always have prami on hand though, just in case I do need it. i also know that keeping deca under 600mg/wk gives me no need of prami usage, but I've never run deca at the dosages catalyst has, so I can't say I wouldn't need it at those dosages.
Everyone really needs to start paying more attention to the signals their bodies emit, rather than cookie cutter cycles and advice, which are a great start, but every individual is unique and must adjust accordingly.
You hit the nail on the head there, the "cookie cutter" approaches shouldn't be so prevalent, particularly in 19 nor cycles.
I agree sort of, less is better, but then periodically we get a slew of noobs and novices that have ran a pct and didn't recover because they ran a 19 nor and prolactin kept them shut down during pct because they didn't use caber or prami. I think it's perfectly fine for trt or cruise and blast not to use. But if you're cycling on and off i honestly believe it's better safe than sorry.
And that's where the controversy arrives, a good point.
100% agree
I agree. I'm all about using the least amount posible of everything, both gear and ancillaries. Why do I want to put a drug in my body if I don't need it ? Every drug has side effecfs and potential dangers. And cabergoline is one that can have some very serious side effects ( heart valve damage). Yes the dose we use is much lower then the therapeutic dose for other diseases but not all side effects are dose dependent. Maybe it is with caber but I haven't seen anything saying it's not. So even small amounts of it could be problematic. People don't understand how rare prolactin induced gyno really is. I've used up to 750mg of nandrolone and never had a problem. But I always have plenty of pharm grade prami on hand just in case. Never had estro problems either even on highish doses of test. Only reason I use ais is because of potential negative effects estrogen can have on males and also high estogen and it's effects on rasing shbg.
RustyhookerBefore eroids I ran cycles differently so no ai needed. Basically small stacks with test used just as small base. Mast/provi works to keep estro in check for me at least, ai etc on hand of course.
Some reads on here about prolactin suggest that if estro is in check, there's not an issue. I wish vikes group run on deca was posted openly. Get some questions and answers flowing.
RustyhookerGreat insight. I ran caber at low dose just as preventative. Had mast high enough that estro was in check.
I definite agree. I don't really have estero issues. I had many issues learning that and crashing my estro at even low dose ai's.
And with 19 nors, I honestly have to say my sex drive is never higher. I've never had any prolactin issues, and have kept an eye on the levels.
I do think it's important to have ai's and prolactin control in hand. Hopefully I'll never need to use them. But there are no constants. We can run the same cycle ten times, and the tenth time end up completely different. For the most part, we learn our bodies and how we react. I don't think it's safe to say it will always be that way. Allow body fat to deviate a few percentage points and the way we convert estro changes completely. Throw sodium, water, calcium, everything that makes up the fragile balance into the equation and it can change on us.
I agree that the " you have to do this" mentality is taken out of context, and a lot of people take unnecessary drugs without learning how they truly respond.
Tink22I agree! I use no ai or prolactin control. If I need to is prefer not to run that compound
1000 test
400 Tren
100 anadrol
No ai's feel good no acne
Do you have bloods to back this up? No sides does not mean you don't have elevated levels.
Tink22No, I don't have bloods. My dick works, I don't burst out and cry. I'm about as mentally stable as I can be. Is extra estro gonna kill me if i do?
Actually ya, kinda. High estrogen is very unhealthy in males. Puts you at a much higher risk for a host of diseases and problems.
One of the main themes in the OPs post was about getting bloods done and not guessing.
You won't die, but high e and p, over a period of time, has many detrimental effects on the heart and other organs.
Too much e in men increases fat storage and can hinder gains. It's just about knowing what's going on and making adjustments if needed. Everyone is different.
Tink22So do you guys think it's possible to have high estro and no sides? Like off 1000 mg and no sides?
It's possible. Everyone is diffent and you body can Chang over time. I used to get away with no AI when I was younger, now I need an AI on TRT doses.
Why guess when $50-100 can give you the answer, along with all your other numbers as well. There is no downside.