+ 3 One size doesn't fit all
For those of you that know me you'll be aware that I have a tendency to want to push the boundaries of what we do and understand why things do and don't work. We have a set up at eroids where we advise, sometimes without putting too much thought into it, a cycle based on the following categories:
Steroid compounds
AI
Anti Prolactin (where appropriate)
PCT
Let's consider these on our typical "basic" first cycle
Test e @ 400-500mg/wk
Adex / Aromasin at varying doses
Nolva / Clomid PCT
So what if I said to you the AI may well not be necessary at this level? Save money, inhibit your gains less. Some of you may have read my previous post about using Mast E and Proviron WITHOUT an AI, but what if I said a decent percentage of you could probably run this above cycle without the need for any of it.
How can I say this? On anything up to about 700mg/wk of test e/c, my estro DOESN'T require anything to keep it under control.On low doses of 19 nors, I don't need anti prolactin. Of course I have both on hand, but I'm only going to take them if those numbers start to raise up. I'm currently running this
500mg Test E / wk
700mg EQ / wk
50mg Tren A ED
No AI, no anti prolactin, currently wk 8.
Now the last thing I'm advising here is everybody goes out and ditches AI protocol. I know my (now old) body and I can spot estro problems quickly, and I also have access to a lot of scientific resource due to my job should I need to run tests etc. What I am suggesting is we get away from this "one size fits all" approach. We didn't have some of these ancillaries when I started running gear and we survived. A greater risk of gyno was prevalent, but it forced users to learn how they react to compounds in a more structured fashion. We're all different, so it's quite possible for someone to end up with hugely elevated levels from a very small dose of test and for someone else with similar stats to be the polar opposite.
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lucky you. i had to run 2-3x the amount of adex i originally intended to keep my nips from looking puffy at 500mg of test e each week.
RustyhookerWell said! That's why for new folks it's advised blood tests thru cycle to map the bidy. Their body. On hand as/if needed for ai. Bloods take the BRO outta SCIENCE
I'm on my first 300mg pw Test E cycle. I haven't had any estro signs 6 weeks in. I'm glad i have exemastane on hand though. I would hate to have started developing man boobs and then could not find it.
That's the right way to think about it, you must have it. What I want to avoid is taking AI's "just because".
Anoni use to never run an ai and i would go get "water" pills my boy called them that
But i later learned what high estro in a cycle could do
I run provi on a regular and beleive it helps me alot and i think the low dose cycles can go without ai for many users unless the are sensitive.. but the higher doses will need the a.i.
I like your thinking here
That's how we did it old school style.
You're absolutely right, some are estro sensitive and will need an AI even on 250-300mg/wk of test. But I bet most here don't know if they fall into that category or not.
Nice post. Just completed a no ai cycle with prop and NPP using proviron and masteron for estrogen control. Back on TRT and will not use a ai for 250 per wk test e. Like the proviron so I will keep taking that at 25 mg per day. Of course will have aromasin and adex on hand in case. It comes down to knowing the symptoms/ feelings of your body. No need to take gain limiting ai's unless problems arise!
What you are saying makes a lot of sense. I have run test cycles and never even touched my AI and saw great gains and felt all the effects of the test. My current cycle I started my AI two weeks in on a test e cycle and I have not had the usual energy, been very lethargic. Waiting on blood work but I discontinued my AI a week ago and have noticed a big difference in my energy level and my intensity in the gym.
aylmejorBout time someone says this on here. The only compound I've ever felt I need a ai are nandro deca and dbol. They gave me some lump formation.
Yea man my first cycle got ruined because I was told I needed to run 12.5mg aromasin a day.. crashed estro quick and felt like absolute shit the rest of cycle.
Do you suggest that folks on their first cycle, like the typical one you posted, stick with the standard AI protocol until they learn whether their body needs it or not? i'm planing on starting my AI next week, 3rd week into my cycle. Just doing 6.25 mg aromasin every other day.
No, Not necessarily. But I also don't recommend taking stuff because someone on a forum said to "parrot fashion", which is where most of the cycle advice is at these days.
Drop me a pm if you want some assistance whilst you're on this cycle, I'm happy to guide you through if needed ok? Your call really mate.
Hell yea I'd like some assistance. Knowing I've got folks with experience that they will share with me makes this first cycle slightly less intimidating. Thanks for the offer SDM.
I'm 8 days into my cycle, and hers my log. http://www.eroids.com/cycle_logs/first-ever-cycle
AnonIm backing sdm on the fact that maybe u could hold off on the a.i. ... it may not be necessary
Anytime mate, we'll talk on pm. I'll support you dropping the AI but we need to keep a close eye on your reaction and talk it through.
You get a +3 for showing that level of respect bro, you choose yourself a FKing good mentor in SDM...... follow his advice to a tee and make us all proud of a real productive 1st cycle
Seeing that this is SDMs post i would like him to answer you but he knows what my answer will be here.
I could not agree more. For those that know me well, know I despise AIs and anti prolactins. Besides making me feel like shit at even very low doses I firmly believe they inhibit gains. I realize there are no official studies on this but I really believe it.
That being said, who wants man boobs or a soft watery look. What I constantly preach is forget what anyone else is running when it comes to AI and AP dosages. Experiment to find your own personal sweet spot which on some cycles may be none at all or in my case it's about 1/4 of the "standard protocol".
When it comes to AIs and APs, use the least effective amount for you, not what works for someone else. More is NOT better.
BOOOOOOOM!............. Welcome to our club house brother, SDM and myself had got to thinking it was us brits that ran without estro killers lol
folks dont realise estrogen is a massive anabolic friend to us gainers lol......... sources hate our topics about NO Ais thats were the profit sits in a bag of flour made into tablet shapes .
Do you remember back in the day (of course you do) when cycles consisted of maybe 500mg Sus (the Russian one that starts with an O) and maybe some drol or dbol? I used to gain 20lb in 2 months. Sure some of that was water but damn did I get big and strong fast. Fast forward to today, I can run twice the mg, more compounds and get half the gains. What changed? I'm older sure but there is more to it than that. AIs!
That's why I am down to .25 Adex twice a week and only when needed.
Tickets are in post for you and the Mrs to fly over and spend some time with SDM and us....... the girls can go blow some hard earned on slinky lingerie and nice smellies and us boyz can hit the pub and talk ROIDS!........... hows about that bruddaman ? if we hit brum town we can take you meet dorian yates in his gym its only round the corner from SDMs house.... then back up north so you check out the wifes home gym and you can try out some of my home brew TNE
Economy or 1st Class? LMAO! I would love it. We would most certainly have a blast.
I,m no cheap skate bro..... only the best will fit my bill! (just keep the receipts) LOL
I'll get a couple of whole cows in for us to "snack on".
That's it. The "cows" did it. See you soon.
Lol.
I'm on EQ so one for me and one for you and Vike to share ;)
I,ll be happy with a beef drumstick... lol
Anytime. You'd always be welcome.
Amen to that.
I will ask peoples thoughts,but i know my body.. I try all compounds to know how I react to them... I have ran shit without test, with test, low test, high test blah blah blah... bottom line i know how my body reacts to it
That's what it's all about, knowing what works for you.
YES.... British Bottle at its finest right here!
Glad you brought this up brother,you know were i stand on this theory 100% so i wont clutter your thread with all my bumf here..... looking forwards to reading some of the responses because it looks like not many took me serious and i still see the usual Ai thrown into every debate or cycle plan handed out on here by guys that really lets be honest after only a few cycles and a couple years using AAS without any real or DEEP self experimentation under their belts.
Fact is... most on here dont know if Ai is working for them or NOT.
And that is exactly the point, taking it when you don't know if you need it or not is what I believe we should get away from.
Do you still do mid cycle blood work? or just go by feel?
I'll check if any issues. To be honest I know when something's up after 10+ years.
FYI here I've just checked bloods 8 days ago, sitting pretty below mid range of estro and no prolactin issues.
Interesting stuff. On my second cycle and taking adex like I did on my first cycle. I guess my reasons were that I thought it was standard as its what I read on forums etc but I wanted to keep gyno at bay and minimise water retention.
My first cycle I took .25 e3d and had great gains, this one I am on 500mg test and started from the off at the same dose of adex, started having some feelings in my nipple areas (poss psychological!) and upped it to eod dosing.
I have to say at the end of 5th week I have not gained massively, I def don't think its bunk gear as I do have libido raise, oily skin, hardening of muscle, vascularity etc and admit my diet (as intended) is prob not strictly a bulker as my goal is just lean gain and drop of BF.
Could this possibly be down to estro being too low? the same as not really feeling "on" which I didn't have on previous cycle either, although I know not everyone does?
If someone wasn't getting bloods done, how would you go about monitoring things if I was to reduce or cut out the AI altogether?
Could be, could be something else. Sometimes the whole psychological aspect of gyno makes people believe they have sore /itchy nipples when they don't. If no blood well, drop the AI for a week or two and see what happens.
Low estro signs are complex. For me, I get irritable and my fuse gets shorter most noticeable. Tiredness and a general drop in the quality of my mood.
If you need any more help, feel free to drop me a PM etc.