Blane's picture
Blane
  • 21
2008

Why are cycles the length they are?

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This is probably stupid but I can't find the answer anywhere.

So why do you take Dbol at the start of a cycle for 4 weeks as apposed to 6 or 3, does it matter, I mean besides the 4 weeks until the Test enanthate reaches appropriate levels, but why cycle Test E for 10-12 weeks to begin with? Is there any thread that explains the reasons for the lengths of the different steroids? If not who can shed some light it would be much appreciated.

fast48's picture

Basically, starting with the basics and branching out helps you as an individual. If you're not going on stage theres plenty of gear cycles to meet any goal as long as food dictates. The basics on cycles is to give a newer user enought gear and time for Nice gains and not have as many sides or complications in a more advanced run. And many advanced runs are simply being prepared for all the sides and combating them properly. When you get to know your body and how things act oon you, you can better manipulate the outcome. Example is low test/high eq. Last summer i started lean and ended up gaining 14 and got hard cut. But that'd after many tries just nailing down common runs. Food is king....that'd the controller. If you know your food you can do great things natty and on cycle. Example is eat a big bulker for 3/4 of the cycle. Control fat with cardio. Run last of cycle super clean...no cheats and up the cardio. Massed up and ended cut. Just by food on a basic test/prop kicker cycle.

Blane's picture

Thanks guys, really helped me out! Love it! And thanks for not going wild at the noob (me).

VIKING EVOLUTION's picture

Its a good thing we have and share Bro Science or we would be all fucked right!... i have learned more through Bro Science than any other source over the course of 35yrs of this lifestyle and 54 successful cycles... your comment is so brief i dont know if you are being POSITIVE or NEGATIVE towards the point.

juice 2's picture

Dat der is a negative and a positive at the same time. Most of it has to be bro science to a large extent as at least 1/3+ of the compounds we use aren't approved for medical use in humans, and the ones that are most certainly aren't approved at the doses we use them in.

VIKING EVOLUTION's picture

Have you seen yr moms piccie yet!

juice 2's picture

These are all generic cut and paste I read it somewhere else things for the most part. I prefer to run dbol for 6 weeks. I also prefer to run it when all the compounds in my body are actually working for a more synergistic effect. I also don't run pct though, so that changes things for me. As far as some compounds, some are better run for longer periods of time versus shorter periods of time. But I know people who run tren just about year round. I feel it loses a lot of effectiveness for me after week 6. I also like nandrolone. I'm in the minority here. I think eq is good run as a base along with test on a longer cycle. It's not a cost effective steroid. But the copy and pasters love it. Because it looks good on paper. Slow, lean gains over a longer cycle. Well what if you want gains the whole cycle? Why not run something like test/npp/eq if you've got some experience. And although some compounds are better suited for preserving muscle in a caloric deficit, there's no such thing as a "cutting" steroid and a "bulking" steroid. Any steroid can be used for either purpose with the right diet and ancillary products.

fast48's picture

Food is king! Big high five. And yes, slow lean gains are Nice however with a kicker to match the goals and experience to know then......rock on!

juice 2's picture

A good thing about life, disagreements and seeing the perspective of another person can change the way you view things. There's plenty of times I would have given you karma for well thought out posts, but it serves of no use until I reach my old status again. In the meantime, we will probably disagree on more things than not, but as long as there is a mutual line of respect we can all coexist like I said before Smile
Btw, I don't mean to discredit anything you've said ever, sometimes I have a tendency to point things out from a different perspective. It's just the way I am. People love me, people hate me, at the end of the day we are both trying to do the same thing.. Help others.

juice 2's picture

Definitely agree with you. When I see someone asking a legit question as to why things are done the way they are, I like to give them a different point of view than they might otherwise get, while not trying to cause harm to anyone obviously. I think there's a lot to be said about simple cycles as well. They work. Period. And if you're on b&c and you can't boast on test only and make it work for you york diet sucks like you said. I just think its cool when someone questions why, and they can get both perspectives and reasonings. They both have their place, and everyone can coexist Smile

juice 2's picture

Smile when nitti sees this.. It's going to fuck him up even more.

P's picture

Ok bro, this question here is a long one which i will try to answer...

Choosing an ester for your next AAS cycle is an important factor to consider. Ester lengths have the ability to define/redefine our muscular appearance, while also providing either a slow release of the main compound to which the ester is attached to or releasing the compound instantaneously. The general rule is, the longer the ester, the longer/slower the release of the main compound - products such as TNE ( Testosterone No-Ester) and Testosterone Suspension have no ester attached to them, and therefore will be transported around your body instantly.

An ester is simply a chain of atoms made up from both carbon and hydrogen - the ester is then attached to the main compound (in this case using AAS steroids - whether it be testosterone or trenbolone for example) at the 17-carbon position. Longer esters have more atoms in its chain at the 17-carbon position, thus increasing the time for the human body to break down that particular molecular chain before it breaks down the main compound.

I hear you ask, what is the purpose of an ester? - Well, esters increase the half-life of the compound it is attached to, and by doing so, one can pin (inject) less often, while crucially maintaining stable blood levels. Products like testosterone propionate require more frequent injections (preferably ED/EOD) in comparison to Testosterone Enanthate (E3D/E4D).

In order to illustrate my aforementioned point, i have presented below a list of the number of carbon atoms situated in each ester:

Formate: 1
Acetate: 2
Propionate: 3
Butyrate: 4
Valerate: 5
Hexanoate: 6
Heptanoate: 7
Enanthate: 7
Octanoate: 8
Cypionate: 8
Nonanoate: 9
Decanoate: 11

Additionally, the data below represents the ester half-life. (The pattern to notice is the more carbon atoms there are, the lengthier the half-life)

Formate: 1.5 days
Acetate: 2 days
Propionate: 3 days
Phenylpropionate: 4.5 days
Butyrate: 6 days
Valerate: 7.5 days
Hexanoate: 9 days
Caproate: 9 days
Isocaproate: 9 days
Heptanoate: 10.5 days
Enanthate: 10.5 days
Octanoate: 12 days
Cypionate: 12 days
Nonanoate: 13.5 days
Decanoate: 15 days
Undecanoate: 16.5 days

At this point in time, you may have came to the conclusion that there is no need for short-esters, since there simply is no need to be pinning unnecessarily. However, there are many more factors to consider before you begin purchasing your long-estered variants, such as the rate of aromatisation/estrogen conversion and blood level volatility for example.

The evidence for this argument results from understanding what esters are - the main variable in comparing esters is their affinity towards water retention, and at what rates the sub-cutaneous water retention is experienced. Experienced AAS users will strongly agree that the water retention experienced through running a long-estered variant such as testosterone enanthate in comparison to testosterone propionate (whereby the main compound in each product is testosterone) is significantly higher. Therefore, these experienced AAS users will tend to use the longer estered variants in their off-season and the short ester variants towards pre-contest preparations. Additionally, these sides such as increased water retention from long-estered testosterone help increase the chances of obtaining other sides such as gyno.

Another point to consider, which i have read more frequently recently is that some of our members claim that shorter estered variants are more potent than their longer estered counterparts. Well, not necessarily since they have the same compound to which the ester is attached to - however, the main difference is that in a 10ml vial of testosterone propionate, there will be a higher percentage of testosterone in the vial, in comparison to testosterone enanthate whereby there is an increased amount of ester weight.

When an ester is attached to a compound the ester makes up a percentage of the total weight of the compound - for example, testosterone cypionate contains 69.9% testosterone per mg, whereas the cypionate ester makes up 30.1% of the total weight. However, testosterone propionate contains 83.7 mg of testosterone, per mg and its ester weight is 16.3% of the compound. Additionally, since shorter esters release the parent compound into the human bloodstream at a faster rate, gains are recognised at an increased speed.

Below is a list of the more commonly used esters, which have been grouped together according to the percentage of testosterone they contain per mg - additionally, i have added breakdown of how much money is spent on the product and how much is spent on the ester (based up on RRP in USD ($) of a 10ml vial using common dosages - Rested Retail Price (term used loosely LMAO).

Percentage of Testosterone per mg - RRP ($) - Value of test - Value of ester

No Ester: 100mg---------------------$45--------$45-------------$0
Propionate: 83.72mg-----------------$35--------$29.3-----------$5.7
Enanthate: 71.99mg------------------$45--------$25.2-----------$19.8
Cypionate: 69.90mg------------------$45--------$24.47----------$20.53

Now, you may say, that maybe i should use a blend which encompasses multiple ester lengths such as Sustanon. Sustanon is great for pinning E3.5D/twice a week, but there are three faults;

1) Since it is a blend, the measurements of each compound are much weaker, thus producing results in inefficient amounts when compared to a single estered compound.

2) Pinning twice a week will make you're blood levels volatile, since sus contains prop, and I don't believe pinning ED or EOD is an option either, since there will be a build-up of longer-estered compounds in your system producing variable, un-tame results.

3) Ester length effects more factors than simply injection frequency and release rates - it also effects water retention, net protein synthesis, gyno risk, influence on estrogen conversion.

Finally, I believe that sus is not cost effective. I say this because the longer-esters take up 'more room' so to speak than shorter esteres. So, imo, if you were dead set on taking sus, then I would buy a vial of prop, a vial of phenyl prop, a vial of iso and a vial of deca and mix accordingly. This is for two reasons, to ensure that the sus is not under-weighted (like many products on offer), and to maximise cost efficiency.

Additionally, you need to ensure your HTPA gets a full recovery, which is why our cycle length is moderated and why we do a PCT...

The general rule for running an AAS cycle is:

Time ON + PCT = Time off (Unless blood results prove that you have returned to natural/near natural levels)

Now, lets say you choose to indulge in a 12 week cycle, which carries a 4 week PCT, thus the total time frame where your hormone levels will be abnormal in comparison to prior natural levels is 16 weeks. Additionally, supposing that you chose against acquiring blood results, this will result in a 16 week 'time off' period. Thus, the total time frame for a single cycle to commence and be finalised is 32 weeks.

Therefore, following the aforementioned key points, on the basis of a 52 week year, one can indulge in (52/32=) 1.625 cycles a year. In Layman's terms, you can run 1 cycle completely (this includes time on + PCT + time off) + (5/8 =) 0.625 cycles. This means you can run one complete cycle (this includes: Time ON + PCT = Time off) plus another 12 week steroid cycle + 4 weeks PCT + 4 weeks time off (32*0.625) in a single year, with a remaining 12 weeks of time off period to be carried forward into the next year - (2 complete AAS cycles = [32 weeks +32 weeks] 64 weeks, -52 weeks (equal to 1 year) = 12 weeks to be carried forward).

With regard to hormone levels, following the 1.625 cycles a year, you are likely to be fine. Of course, people find that after single cycle with PCT and time off, their levels return close to natural, much in the same way in which another person may find that they will be completely reliant upon TRT/HRT after their first cycle. What i have tried to illustrate here is that everybody is different - and the assumption that the time off period will, in most cases, return an individual to 'normal' hormonal levels.

Hope this helps,
P

(http://www.eroids.com/forum/steroids-qa/anabolic-steroids/ester-value)
(http://www.eroids.com/forum/steroids-qa/pct-anti-estrogens/pct-the-time-...)

Engineereddisaster's picture

Great Post P. +1 from me.